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Belmaria
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Postby Belmaria » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:44 pm

Panmerica wrote:
Panmerica wrote:TO BE BROUGHT TO THE FLOOR:

SENATE OF AURENTINA HEREBY REPEALS Alcohol Pricing ACT IN ITS ENTIRETY
Urgency: High | Author: Panmerica [LPA] | Category: Health
Co-sponsors: Skeckoa [LPA]|Zepuha [ALM]Beta Test [ALM]|The Liberated Territories [LPA]|Crown Island [RP]
Preamble
Recognizing that the The Alcohol Minimum Pricing Act worsens the effects of alcoholism on the poorer populations, and beleiving such to be an outreach of government power
the Senate of Aurentina HEREBY REPEALS the Alcohol Minimum Pricing Act



Edited.

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Zurkerx
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Postby Zurkerx » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:55 pm

Zurkerx wrote:I would like to add this to the queue under Domestic Development.

Aurentina Television Network Revision Act

Urgency: Moderate| Author(s): Zurkerx (LPA)| Co-Author(s): The Nihilistic view(ALM)| Category: Domestic Development

Co-sponsors: The Liberated Territories [LPA], New Zepuha [ALM], Belmaria [LPA], Panmerica [LPA]



RECOGNIZING that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk was nationalized by the government in the year 2013.

Understanding that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk was nationalized to keep it afloat.

Believing that a purely government funded television network is suspectable to both bias and propaganda actions to whatever party or coalition that currently rules.

NOTING that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk spends an unnecessary amount of money which can be directed at more important things.

ALSO NOTING it requires tax payer money to keep Aurentisë Televisënetwörk funded.

ALSO BELIEVING that less of a burden will not only be put on the Citizens of Aurentina, but the Aurentine Government as well.

REALIZING that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk can survive through other means of funding.

HEREBY ENACTS the following clauses:

Clause 1- Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will no longer be funded by the Aurentine Government.

Clause 2- Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will use license fees as its form of making revenue.

Clause 3- The license fees for the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will be optional for the people of Aurentina.

Clause 4- Those who don't subscribe to Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will not be charged the license fee and will not receive the ATN Channel.

THE FOLLOWING is define:

-Property will be define as any suitable living area or business as such:

1. A House.
2. A Business of any sort.

FUNDING will be proceeded by license fees by those who subscribe as followed:

-Employed people the ages of 21 to 65 whether a home owner, leaseholder, or business owner; shall pay £150 per year.

-Employed people between the ages of 18 to 21 and 65 to 80 that are a home owner, leaseholder, or business owner, shall pay £75 per year.

-Employed, unemployed, or retired people above the age 80 and under the age of 18 that are a home owner, leaseholder, or business owner, shall pay £0.

-In the case of the leaseholder, they must pay the license fee for each property that they lease.

-The leaseholder's age will depend on the amount paid for each property.

-Other occupants living with the leaseholder, home owner, or business owner do not have pay or subscribe to the license fee.

-All payment will be done on an annual basis.

FINES will be define as follow:

-Those found illegally tuning in to Aurentisë Televisënetwörk without a license will be fined £250.

THIS LAW shall take affect immediately once passed.


Um, did anyone see this? Just pointing it out.
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:05 pm

Zurkerx wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:I would like to add this to the queue under Domestic Development.

Aurentina Television Network Revision Act

Urgency: Moderate| Author(s): Zurkerx (LPA)| Co-Author(s): The Nihilistic view(ALM)| Category: Domestic Development

Co-sponsors: The Liberated Territories [LPA], New Zepuha [ALM], Belmaria [LPA], Panmerica [LPA]



RECOGNIZING that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk was nationalized by the government in the year 2013.

Understanding that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk was nationalized to keep it afloat.

Believing that a purely government funded television network is suspectable to both bias and propaganda actions to whatever party or coalition that currently rules.

NOTING that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk spends an unnecessary amount of money which can be directed at more important things.

ALSO NOTING it requires tax payer money to keep Aurentisë Televisënetwörk funded.

ALSO BELIEVING that less of a burden will not only be put on the Citizens of Aurentina, but the Aurentine Government as well.

REALIZING that the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk can survive through other means of funding.

HEREBY ENACTS the following clauses:

Clause 1- Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will no longer be funded by the Aurentine Government.

Clause 2- Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will use license fees as its form of making revenue.

Clause 3- The license fees for the Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will be optional for the people of Aurentina.

Clause 4- Those who don't subscribe to Aurentisë Televisënetwörk will not be charged the license fee and will not receive the ATN Channel.

THE FOLLOWING is define:

-Property will be define as any suitable living area or business as such:

1. A House.
2. A Business of any sort.

FUNDING will be proceeded by license fees by those who subscribe as followed:

-Employed people the ages of 21 to 65 whether a home owner, leaseholder, or business owner; shall pay £150 per year.

-Employed people between the ages of 18 to 21 and 65 to 80 that are a home owner, leaseholder, or business owner, shall pay £75 per year.

-Employed, unemployed, or retired people above the age 80 and under the age of 18 that are a home owner, leaseholder, or business owner, shall pay £0.

-In the case of the leaseholder, they must pay the license fee for each property that they lease.

-The leaseholder's age will depend on the amount paid for each property.

-Other occupants living with the leaseholder, home owner, or business owner do not have pay or subscribe to the license fee.

-All payment will be done on an annual basis.

FINES will be define as follow:

-Those found illegally tuning in to Aurentisë Televisënetwörk without a license will be fined £250.

THIS LAW shall take affect immediately once passed.


Um, did anyone see this? Just pointing it out.


Yeah i did, but when I came to add the other two I could not find the original post of the above bill and so I thought I had been seeing things. :lol2:
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Zurkerx
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Postby Zurkerx » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:16 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:
Um, did anyone see this? Just pointing it out.


Yeah i did, but when I came to add the other two I could not find the original post of the above bill and so I thought I had been seeing things. :lol2:


Well, it does happen to everyone so... :lol2:
Can you please add it when you get a chance. :D
The Plan must go on. :twisted:
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:57 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
President Pro-Tempore of the Senate wrote:The Local Government Act has been removed from the queue as it does not have the required number of sponsors anymore.


That is BS.

Edit: Someone finally explained why.

Local Government Act
Category: Safety and Order
Urgency: Moderate
Drafted By: Silvano Rivolta (Reform)
Sponsors: New Bierstaat (LP), The New Sea Territory (LP), Ainin (NDP), Aragon-Francho (Ind.)



RECOGNISING: That Aurentina needs local government bodies to administer cities and districts effectively.

ACKNOWLEDGING: That provinces were meant to be provided for in the constitution that has never materialised.

HEREBY: Passes the Local Government Act which seeks to outline and regulate the powers of provincial and local body governments and repeals any previous legislation articles regarding local governance structure and powers.

Article 1: On Provinces
1a: Hereby creates provinces as second-tier levels of local-body administration in Aurentina.
1b: Each province is to be administered by an intendant. The intendant serves as the figurehead of the provincial administrative body and is to be elected for a term of five years to be held concurrent with local body elections.
1c: The intendant has no powers over central government.
1d: The intendant does have the power of the following:
  • Infrastructure funding
  • Education funding towards schools and universities
  • Extra-government healthcare funding
  • Cultural funding (i.e funding of arts festivals)
  • Administration of local divisions of government agencies
  • Local body government funding
  • Ability to repeal local-body laws that are conflict or break national statutory law
  • Ability to stand down an elected mayor if they refuse to resign or have committed a violation of the law that requires them to stand trial.
1e: Control of law and order, healthcare, welfare, justice and energy are to fully remain under the control of central government. Housing shall remain under the control of both local body governments and central government.
1f: Provinces may not enact statutory law nor any by-laws altogether.
1g: Provinces may not create legislative bodies.
1h: Provinces may enact taxes on residents.
1i: Intendant candidacy restrictions are those of mayoral and council candidates.

Article 2: On District and City Councils
Article 2a: Hereby defines the following:
  • District Council: A local government body that governs an area comprising one or more cities and towns with a population totalling less than 100,000 inhabitants.
  • City Council: A local government body that governs an urban area with a population totalling more than 100,000 inhabitants.
  • Urban Area: A population cluster totalling more than 100,000 inhabitants with a density of 350 persons per square kilometre.
  • Additionally defines a district as an urban or rural area as described above without population conditions and is governed by a district or a city council.
Article 2b: Hereby creates city and district councils as third tier local body administration in Aurentina.
Article 2c: Each council shall be administered by a mayor. They are the head of the council and are elected to a term of five years to be held in elections.
Article 2d: The mayor shall not have powers over central government but does have powers over local government.
Article 2e: District Councils have the following powers:
  • Control over transport and infrastructure related issues, such as road planning, tolls, parking, maintenance etc.
  • Control over placement of speed limits within their respective district boundaries in accordance with national law.
  • Control over zoning laws and housing areas as well as by-laws surrounding property maintenance.
  • Implementation of local by-laws by the council. These laws are only valid within the territorial boundaries of the respective district and must not conflict, undermine or overrule national law.
  • Provision of services such as utilities, waste disposal and public transport.
  • Implementation of laws regarding the consumption of alcohol and other drugs that pose health issues towards the general public.
  • Enact rates: monthly bills sent to residents to pay for water and other utilities and public services provided by the local council (except public transport).
Article 2f: Councils may enact taxes on residents but only limited to utilities usage and property taxes.
Article 2g: Mayors may not be members of any established political party prior to office nor may they hold any other political office during their term.
Article 2h: Mayors are not above local or national laws and any break of the law resulting in a trial will result in their removal from office.
Article 2i: Mayoral and council candidates must have the following in order to be eligible to run in elections:
  • Aurentine citizenship or permanent residency
  • Must have lived in their district for more than five years and must be able to reside on a permanent basis in said district throughout their term (holidays do not apply).
  • No serious criminal record.
  • All candidates must be over 18 years of age.


Can we have this quickly added back to the queue?
Last edited by Costa Fierro on Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:03 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
That is BS.

Edit: Someone finally explained why.

Local Government Act
Category: Safety and Order
Urgency: Moderate
Drafted By: Michael Blumenthal (NDP)
Sponsors: New Bierstaat (LP), The New Sea Territory (LP), Ainin (NDP), Aragon-Francho (Ind.)



RECOGNISING: That Aurentina needs local government bodies to administer cities and districts effectively.

ACKNOWLEDGING: That provinces were meant to be provided for in the constitution that has never materialised.

HEREBY: Passes the Local Government Act which seeks to outline and regulate the powers of provincial and local body governments and repeals any previous legislation articles regarding local governance structure and powers.

Article 1: On Provinces
1a: Hereby creates provinces as second-tier levels of local-body administration in Aurentina.
1b: Each province is to be administered by an intendant. The intendant serves as the figurehead of the provincial administrative body and is to be elected for a term of five years to be held concurrent with local body elections.
1c: The intendant has no powers over central government.
1d: The intendant does have the power of the following:
  • Infrastructure funding
  • Education funding towards schools and universities
  • Extra-government healthcare funding
  • Cultural funding (i.e funding of arts festivals)
  • Administration of local divisions of government agencies
  • Local body government funding
  • Ability to repeal local-body laws that are conflict or break national statutory law
  • Ability to stand down an elected mayor if they refuse to resign or have committed a violation of the law that requires them to stand trial.
1e: Control of law and order, healthcare, welfare, justice and energy are to fully remain under the control of central government. Housing shall remain under the control of both local body governments and central government.
1f: Provinces may not enact statutory law nor any by-laws altogether.
1g: Provinces may not create legislative bodies.
1h: Provinces may enact taxes on residents.
1i: Intendant candidacy restrictions are those of mayoral and council candidates.

Article 2: On District and City Councils
Article 2a: Hereby defines the following:
  • District Council: A local government body that governs an area comprising one or more cities and towns with a population totalling less than 100,000 inhabitants.
  • City Council: A local government body that governs an urban area with a population totalling more than 100,000 inhabitants.
  • Urban Area: A population cluster totalling more than 100,000 inhabitants with a density of 350 persons per square kilometre.
  • Additionally defines a district as an urban or rural area as described above without population conditions and is governed by a district or a city council.
Article 2b: Hereby creates city and district councils as third tier local body administration in Aurentina.
Article 2c: Each council shall be administered by a mayor. They are the head of the council and are elected to a term of five years to be held in elections.
Article 2d: The mayor shall not have powers over central government but does have powers over local government.
Article 2e: District Councils have the following powers:
  • Control over transport and infrastructure related issues, such as road planning, tolls, parking, maintenance etc.
  • Control over placement of speed limits within their respective district boundaries in accordance with national law.
  • Control over zoning laws and housing areas as well as by-laws surrounding property maintenance.
  • Implementation of local by-laws by the council. These laws are only valid within the territorial boundaries of the respective district and must not conflict, undermine or overrule national law.
  • Provision of services such as utilities, waste disposal and public transport.
  • Implementation of laws regarding the consumption of alcohol and other drugs that pose health issues towards the general public.
  • Enact rates: monthly bills sent to residents to pay for water and other utilities and public services provided by the local council (except public transport).
Article 2f: Councils may enact taxes on residents but only limited to utilities usage and property taxes.
Article 2g: Mayors may not be members of any established political party prior to office nor may they hold any other political office during their term.
Article 2h: Mayors are not above local or national laws and any break of the law resulting in a trial will result in their removal from office.
Article 2i: Mayoral and council candidates must have the following in order to be eligible to run in elections:
  • Aurentine citizenship or permanent residency
  • Must have lived in their district for more than five years and must be able to reside on a permanent basis in said district throughout their term (holidays do not apply).
  • No serious criminal record.
  • All candidates must be over 18 years of age.


Can we have this quickly added back to the queue?


Still needs changing. The Author does not satisfy the regulations as M.B is no longer a sitting senator or the original nation. Yon need to put your new nation or senator in there.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:04 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
Can we have this quickly added back to the queue?


Still needs changing. The Author does not satisfy the regulations as M.B is no longer a sitting senator or the original nation. Yon need to put your new nation or senator in there.


Done.
Last edited by Costa Fierro on Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Bierstaat
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Postby New Bierstaat » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:37 pm

Image

Lord Alexander Boris De Pfeffel William Johnson
President Pro-Tempore of the Senate
Senate Chamber
1 Senate Circle
Leishaagen

Mr. President Pro-Tempore, and All Senators:

I am writing to announce that my office has found the recently-passed Prohibition of Youth Castration Act to be unconstitutional. Therefore, I am using my power as president under the Republican Executive Act to veto the bill in its entirety.

With that having been said, I would like to address a short word to the lawmakers who voted for this bill. There were a few who had read it, but I know that the lion's share of you voted for the bill without the slightest clue as to what was in it. I know not all of you have time to read all the bills, but the tradition of blindly offering rubber-stamp "aye" votes to bills because the titles look innocuous, or through the simple "aye to all" vote has got to stop, as we've seen quite clearly through the passage of this new bill. I urge each senator to begin reading every bill on which he/she plans to vote. If you do not have the time to read a bill, please abstain from voting on it.

If you feel that an abstention is not an option and that you must vote on all bills, even those which you have not read, I ask that you vote "nay" on them. The uneducated nay vote leaves us, at worst, with the status quo, where the supporters of a bill can rewrite and resubmit the bill and try again. The uneducated aye vote allows for the possible passage of bad policy, or in this case, really bad policy.

I'd like to thank former Prime Minister Ainin for writing the bill and exploiting this serious flaw in our operation as a senate.

Thank you all for your time.

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Belmaria
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Postby Belmaria » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:55 pm

I voted for the PYCA as a joke... I feel so evil now :(
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New Bierstaat
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Postby New Bierstaat » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:59 pm

Belmaria wrote:I voted for the PYCA as a joke... I feel so evil now :(

Have you joined the Evil Party?
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Beta Test
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Postby Beta Test » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:00 pm

Belmaria wrote:I voted for the PYCA as a joke... I feel so evil now :(

Same. But I think he was referring to those who vote without reading.
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Belmaria
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Postby Belmaria » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:01 pm

New Bierstaat wrote:
Belmaria wrote:I voted for the PYCA as a joke... I feel so evil now :(

Have you joined the Evil Party?

I might as well. I'm a member of practically every other party in the senate :p
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Beta Test
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Postby Beta Test » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:11 pm

What section is currently at debate?
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Animal Protection Force
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Postby Animal Protection Force » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:12 pm

New Bierstaat wrote:I'd like to thank former Prime Minister Ainin for writing the bill and exploiting this serious flaw in our operation as a senate.

Image
Last edited by Animal Protection Force on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Belmaria
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Postby Belmaria » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:18 pm

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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:18 pm



Isn't the Local Government Act also supposed to be there too, as it is fixed?

Roading Act
Category: Domestic Development
Urgency: None
Drafted by: Silvano Rivolta (Reform)
Sponsors: Libertechie (LP), Ainin (NDP), The Nihilistic View (ALM), Aragon-Francho (Ind.)


RECOGNISING: That the current legal status of road onwership and maintenance responsibilities are not clarified.

HEREBY: Passes the Roading Act which clarifies ownership of roads as well as maintenance responsibilities, revenue rights and road markings and signage standardisation as well as the formal restablishment of a national road network.

Article 1: On Ownership and Revenue Rights
1a: Hereby states that all roads built by the former British government as official government projects using government money are owned by its successor.
1b: All roads built by companies independent of the government and funded purely by that company's available funds are owned by that company.
1c: All roads built by local governments either using government allocated funds or funds acquired through the levying of rates (defined as local government taxes) are hereby owned by the respective local government bodies.
1d: The right of revenue collected by tolls on government owned roads is hereby granted to the central government.
1e: The right of revenue collected by tolls on privately owned roads is hereby granted to the company that owns said road.
1f: The right of revenue collected by tolls on roads owned by local governments is hereby granted to local governments.
1g: Mandates that all electronic tolls operate on the same or similar software. Profits may be divided according to ownership of roads and the number of vehicles passed.

Article 2: On Maintenance
2a: The Ministry of Transport may create a government agency to oversee the maintenance of its share of the motorway network. Said agency shall be directly involved in the maintenance of the roads themselves.
2b: Private contracts may be handed out at the Minister's behest.
2c: All roads that fall under local government ownership and privately funded and constructed roads on property owned by the relevant local government body are to be the responsibility of said relevant local government body with regards to maintenance.
2d: Local government bodies may enact concessions from private companies to cover the costs of road maintenance.
2e: Local government bodies may contract maintenance work to private companies.
2f: Local government bodies may levy rates as defined in Article 1c to cover road maintenance projects.
2d: The central government is hereby mandated to allocate no more than £35 million per province for road maintenance.

Article 3: On the Road Network and Signage
3a: Hereby reestablishes the national road network as a legal entity to its respective owners.
3b: Hereby announces the types of road as the following:
  • Motorway (“M roads”)
  • Auxiliary (“A roads”)
  • Provincial (“P roads”)
3c: Defines the roads listed in Article 3b as the following:
  • Motorway: Inter-urban roads of two or more lanes in each direction that are access controlled and have a speed limit of 130km/h.
  • Auxiliary: Inter-urban roads of two or more lanes in each direction that can be access controlled and have a speed limit of 110km/h.
  • Provincial: Inter-urban roads of one lane in each direction (passing lanes included) that are not access controlled and have a speed limit of between 70 and 100km/h.

3d: Defines that all other roads (with the exemptions of access ways on private or commercial property and other roadways such as those at airports) as “local” without any prefix.
3e: Mandates that all signs adhere to the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals.
3f: Mandates that all road markings are to adhere to British standards.
Last edited by Costa Fierro on Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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New Bierstaat
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Postby New Bierstaat » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:20 pm

Animal Protection Force wrote:
New Bierstaat wrote:I'd like to thank former Prime Minister Ainin for writing the bill and exploiting this serious flaw in our operation as a senate.

Image

Total seriousness. You have exposed to the full Senate a very serious problem. What may have been intended as a joke has conveyed a real serious message to our people.
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The Nihilistic view
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Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:23 pm

As it was removed for procedural reasons it can't go back in where it was as it should not have been in the queue in the first place for the last couple of months. I only noticed when I read the bill yesterday to see if I would vote for it or not.
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:23 pm

RPWA will pass smoothly.

Any objections before it starts?
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:27 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:As it was removed for procedural reasons it can't go back in where it was as it should not have been in the queue in the first place for the last couple of months. I only noticed when I read the bill yesterday to see if I would vote for it or not.


Everything is fixed though. I don't see why it should be left out. What part of the procedure regulations say that it should be left out even if it is fixed?
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The Nihilistic view
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Founded: May 14, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:35 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:As it was removed for procedural reasons it can't go back in where it was as it should not have been in the queue in the first place for the last couple of months. I only noticed when I read the bill yesterday to see if I would vote for it or not.


Everything is fixed though. I don't see why it should be left out. What part of the procedure regulations say that it should be left out even if it is fixed?


Because once a category is begun no new bills may be added to it. They must wait for the next time around to be voted on. That has always been the procedure, i'm just following on from previous PpT's.
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Costa Fierro
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Founded: Dec 09, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:39 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:Because once a category is begun no new bills may be added to it. They must wait for the next time around to be voted on. That has always been the procedure, i'm just following on from previous PpT's.


But this is not a new bill. It's still the same bill that was added originally aside from the sponsors issue and a couple of spelling corrections that I missed.
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Founded: May 14, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:47 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:Because once a category is begun no new bills may be added to it. They must wait for the next time around to be voted on. That has always been the procedure, i'm just following on from previous PpT's.


But this is not a new bill. It's still the same bill that was added originally aside from the sponsors issue and a couple of spelling corrections that I missed.


You miss the point, from a procedural point of view it is a new bill as it should not have been in the queue with that number of sponsors. It's not about when it was written or submitted before, it's about did it have a legal number of sponsors at the time the current category came up for debate. It did not not. I did talk this through with my boss yesterday to ask his opinion and he came to the same conclusion as I did.
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Founded: Jun 12, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Belmaria » Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:49 pm

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
But this is not a new bill. It's still the same bill that was added originally aside from the sponsors issue and a couple of spelling corrections that I missed.


You miss the point, from a procedural point of view it is a new bill as it should not have been in the queue with that number of sponsors. It's not about when it was written or submitted before, it's about did it have a legal number of sponsors at the time the current category came up for debate. It did not not. I did talk this through with my boss yesterday to ask his opinion and he came to the same conclusion as I did.

Actually, it did have the legal amount of sponsors, then it lost the amount of sponsors, then regained it again. So this is an unusual case.
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