NSG Senate Coffee Shop [NSG Senate]

[Byzantium Imperial]

God dam i went offline just when we started about hunting and meat? Dammit

Well-intentioned but ill presented animal protections.

I didnt realize meat eating would be illegal though!
And now that i think of it, why was i supportinng it earliar? I like fishing, and hunting to a far lesser extent (aka i went once and didnt get anything)

[Finium]

Well-intentioned but ill presented animal protections.

I didnt realize meat eating would be illegal though!
And now that i think of it, why was i supportinng it earliar? I like fishing, and hunting to a far lesser extent (aka i went once and didnt get anything)

Eating animals wouldn't be illegal, but killing animals to eat them would be.

[The Nihilistic view]

I didnt realize meat eating would be illegal though!
And now that i think of it, why was i supportinng it earliar? I like fishing, and hunting to a far lesser extent (aka i went once and didnt get anything)

Eating animals wouldn't be illegal, but killing animals to eat them would be.

What lunacy is this? Who has come up with this idea?

[Byzantium Imperial]

I didnt realize meat eating would be illegal though!
And now that i think of it, why was i supportinng it earliar? I like fishing, and hunting to a far lesser extent (aka i went once and didnt get anything)

Eating animals wouldn't be illegal, but killing animals to eat them would be.

Im thinking that "killed" the bill as it were

[Free South Califas]

Of course, if you cared, you'd have suggested the bill be amended so that animals can be killed for food or perhaps even sport, maybe with certain precautions (i.e. no unavoidable pain/suffering).

As for the social contract, obviously as a Communist I reject liberalism. But that's beside the point - your objection was practically derived from a poem. You can code "survival" all kinds of ways, for example, the urge to help without expecting returns (found in very young children), etc. I just didn't see it as in good faith and still don't really.

[Liberated Counties]

ANIMAL PROTECTION ACT

Drafted by: Liberated Counties [CFE] Free South Califas [CP]
Sponsors:

NOTES That Aurentina has no form of Animal Protection currently in place.

RECOGNISES That animals have the right to be protected by the Law.

DEFINES Animal Abuse as Inflicting harm or suffering upon any animal for reasons other than self defence.

HEREBY Declares the various degrees of animal abuse an offense that may result in prosecution or a fine.

Section 1: Degrees of Animal Abuse

1st Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the death of an Animal.
2nd Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the death of an Animal.
3rd Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the harm and suffering of an Animal.
4th Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the harm and suffering suffering of an Animal.
5th Degree Animal Abuse: Attempting to cause the harm, death or suffering of an Animal.


Section 2: Consequential prosecutions

2a) Once a person is caught or proven to to be committing any of these offences, they are not to be taken straight into custody unless they commit a separate offence which is punishable by arrest. Instead the offender is to be given a court date which will be organised between police and court. If deemed guilty by the the appropriate court, a person will be given the following sentence depending on the degree of animal abuse committed.

2b) the following Sentences, depending on the degree committed, are:

1st Degree: 6-9 Month Prison Sentence
2nd Degree: £290-310 monetary fine and/or 1-2 Month community service. (if eligible)
3rd Degree: £270-290 monetary fine and/or 1-4 Month community service. (if eligible)
4th Degree: £250-270 monetary fine.
5th Degree: £200-250 monetary fine.


Section 3: Rescue

3a) If an animal is deemed by local authorities to in danger, or already hurt, police will be responsible for the rescue of that animal. In the event that an animal is on private property, the owner maintains the right to deny police entry; however, police may be given the right to obtain an entry warrant from local judiciary or animal-related authorities at their discretion, enabling police and workers with police-generated passes to perform specific animal-related tasks on such property regardless of consent, as necessary to prevent abuse, end abuse, provide needed care, for sanitary purposes, or to corral or remove the animal for those listed purposes, or in order to determine if such action is needed. During the rescue operation, police must operate with restraint, causing as little damage to property, persons or other animals as possible.

3b) Police authorities are strongly encouraged to train a proportional number of their staff to be aware of these responsibilities in general and/or as regards particular animals of interest, and also to cultivate active relationships with diverse animal experts who can be reached on an emergency basis.

3c) Once an animal has been recovered, they are to be taken to the local veterinary clinic if necessary for their health, then delivered to local animal shelters to care for and Reno,e the animal at their own discretion.

Section 4: Medicinary

A qualified Veterinarian is not considered to have committed abuse in cases where they preform procedures on an animal in the best interest of the animal's health, so long as anaesthetic has been properly applied as regards procedures which may cause severe suffering will require anaesthetic. Owners without veterinary qualifications are also not to be considered as having committed abuse toward an animal for whom they are the primary caretaker if they are applying prescribed treatments or medicines, or performing procedures thought by medical consensus to be safe for the animal, and particular breed and size especially as regards dosage, at the time of the event.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalizing or prohibiting animal experimentation.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or abolishing the humane slaughter of Livestock for the purpose of providing a food supply.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalizing or punishing the act of protecting an individual or shared food supply by killing or attempting to kill bugs, or kill creatures or disable objects which appear similar and threaten the safety or integrity of such food.

Redone.

[Great Nepal]

ANIMAL PROTECTION ACT

Drafted by: Liberated Counties [CFE] Free South Califas [CP]
Sponsors:

NOTES That Aurentina has no form of Animal Protection currently in place.

RECOGNISES That animals have the right to be protected by the Law.

DEFINES Animal Abuse as Inflicting harm or suffering upon any animal for reasons other than self defence.

HEREBY Declares the various degrees of animal abuse an offense that may result in prosecution or a fine.

Section 1: Degrees of Animal Abuse

1st Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the death of an Animal.
2nd Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the death of an Animal.
3rd Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the harm and suffering of an Animal.
4th Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the harm and suffering suffering of an Animal.
5th Degree Animal Abuse: Attempting to cause the harm, death or suffering of an Animal.


Section 2: Consequential prosecutions

2a) Once a person is caught or proven to to be committing any of these offences, they are not to be taken straight into custody unless they commit a separate offence which is punishable by arrest. Instead the offender is to be given a court date which will be organised between police and court. If deemed guilty by the the appropriate court, a person will be given the following sentence depending on the degree of animal abuse committed.

2b) the following Sentences, depending on the degree committed, are:

1st Degree: 6-9 Month Prison Sentence
2nd Degree: £290-310 monetary fine and/or 1-2 Month community service. (if eligible)
3rd Degree: £270-290 monetary fine and/or 1-4 Month community service. (if eligible)
4th Degree: £250-270 monetary fine.
5th Degree: £200-250 monetary fine.


Section 3: Rescue

3a) If an animal is deemed by local authorities to in danger, or already hurt, police will be responsible for the rescue of that animal. In the event that an animal is on private property, the owner maintains the right to deny police entry; however, police may be given the right to obtain an entry warrant from local judiciary or animal-related authorities at their discretion, enabling police and workers with police-generated passes to perform specific animal-related tasks on such property regardless of consent, as necessary to prevent abuse, end abuse, provide needed care, for sanitary purposes, or to corral or remove the animal for those listed purposes, or in order to determine if such action is needed. During the rescue operation, police must operate with restraint, causing as little damage to property, persons or other animals as possible.

3b) Police authorities are strongly encouraged to train a proportional number of their staff to be aware of these responsibilities in general and/or as regards particular animals of interest, and also to cultivate active relationships with diverse animal experts who can be reached on an emergency basis.

3c) Once an animal has been recovered, they are to be taken to the local veterinary clinic if necessary for their health, then delivered to local animal shelters to care for and Reno,e the animal at their own discretion.

Section 4: Medicinary

A qualified Veterinarian is not considered to have committed abuse in cases where they preform procedures on an animal in the best interest of the animal's health, so long as anaesthetic has been properly applied as regards procedures which may cause severe suffering will require anaesthetic. Owners without veterinary qualifications are also not to be considered as having committed abuse toward an animal for whom they are the primary caretaker if they are applying prescribed treatments or medicines, or performing procedures thought by medical consensus to be safe for the animal, and particular breed and size especially as regards dosage, at the time of the event.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalizing or prohibiting animal experimentation.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or abolishing the humane slaughter of Livestock for the purpose of providing a food supply.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalizing or punishing the act of protecting an individual or shared food supply by killing or attempting to kill bugs, or kill creatures or disable objects which appear similar and threaten the safety or integrity of such food.

Redone.

Add exception for hunting and organised sports and you have my support.

[Liberated Counties]

Organised sport such as horse racing wouldn't be illegal, if the horse was hurt in the race with an injury that would surely end it's career the rider or owner wasn't directly in fault, now if you were to shoot that horse it would be illegal, however taking it to a vet to either fix it or euthanise the animal wouldn't be illegal.

[Great Nepal]

Add exception for hunting and organised sports and you have my support.

Organised sport such as horse racing wouldn't be illegal, if the horse was hurt in the race with an injury that would surely end it's career the rider or owner wasn't directly in fault, now if you were to shoot that horse it would be illegal, however taking it to a vet to either fix it or euthanise the animal wouldn't be illegal.[/quote]
If say horse were to die in racing, the owner could be prosecuted for 2nd Degree Animal Abuse for unintentionally causing animal death.
In your example, they could be prosecuted for 4th Degree Animal Abuse for Unintentionally causing the harm and suffering suffering of an Animal.

[Liberated Counties]

ANIMAL PROTECTION ACT



Drafted by: Liberated Counties [CFE] Free South Califas [CP]
Sponsors: New Zepuha [CMP]] Great Nepal [CFE]

NOTES That Aurentina has no form of Animal Protection currently in place.

RECOGNISES That animals have the right to be protected by the Law.

DEFINES Animal Abuse as Inflicting harm or suffering upon any animal for reasons other than self defence.

HEREBY Declares the various degrees of animal abuse an offense that may result in prosecution or a fine.

Section 1: Degrees of Animal Abuse

1st Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the death of an Animal.
2nd Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the death of an Animal.
3rd Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the harm and suffering of an Animal.
4th Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the harm and suffering suffering of an Animal.
5th Degree Animal Abuse: Attempting to cause the harm, death or suffering of an Animal.


Section 2: Consequential prosecutions

2a) Once a person is caught or proven to to be committing any of these offences, they are not to be taken straight into custody unless they commit a separate offence which is punishable by arrest. Instead the offender is to be given a court date which will be organised between police and court. If deemed guilty by the the appropriate court, a person will be given the following sentence depending on the degree of animal abuse committed.

2b) the following Sentences, depending on the degree committed, are:

1st Degree: 6-9 Month Prison Sentence
2nd Degree: £590-420 monetary fine and/or 1-2 Month community service. (if eligible)
3rd Degree: £570-590 monetary fine and/or 1-4 Month community service. (if eligible)
4th Degree: £550-570 monetary fine.
5th Degree: £500-550 monetary fine.


Section 3: Rescue

3a) If an animal is deemed by local authorities to in danger, or already hurt, police will be responsible for the rescue of that animal. In the event that an animal is on private property, the owner maintains the right to deny police entry; however, police may be given the right to obtain an entry warrant from local judiciary or animal-related authorities at their discretion, enabling police and workers with police-generated passes to perform specific animal-related tasks on such property regardless of consent, as necessary to prevent abuse, end abuse, provide needed care, for sanitary purposes, or to corral or remove the animal for those listed purposes, or in order to determine if such action is needed. During the rescue operation, police must operate with restraint, causing as little damage to property, persons or other animals as possible.

3b) Police authorities are strongly encouraged to train a proportional number of their staff to be aware of these responsibilities in general and/or as regards particular animals of interest, and also to cultivate active relationships with diverse animal experts who can be reached on an emergency basis.

3c) Once an animal has been recovered, they are to be taken to the local veterinary clinic if necessary for their health, any costs that treatments may incur are to be nullified. The animal is then to be taken to any animal shelter willing to rehome the animal once it has fully recovered.

Section 4: Medicinary

A qualified Veterinarian is not considered to have committed abuse in cases where they preform procedures on an animal in the best interest of the animal's health, so long as anaesthetic has been properly applied as regards procedures which may cause severe suffering will require anaesthetic. Owners without veterinary qualifications are also not to be considered as having committed abuse toward an animal for whom they are the primary caretaker if they are applying prescribed treatments or medicines, or performing procedures thought by medical consensus to be safe for the animal, and particular breed and size especially as regards dosage, at the time of the event.




Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or prohibiting the commercial organised racing of animals.


Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalizing or prohibiting animal experimentation.


Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising the hunting of animals classified as game.


Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or abolishing the humane slaughter of Livestock for the purpose of providing a food supply.



Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalizing or punishing the act of protecting an individual or shared food supply by killing or attempting to kill bugs, or kill creatures or disable objects which appear similar and threaten the safety or integrity of such food.

Califas, here's the thing with the typo edited out. Anymore ideas?

[Free South Califas]

ETA: Apologies, I forgot to transfer the co-sponsors over.

Add exception for hunting and organised sports and you have my support.

I have done so: (got ninja;d, but i incorporated those edits and made sure sports are not just not-criminalized, but also covered for normal injuries)

ANIMAL PROTECTION ACT

Drafted by: Liberated Counties [CFE] Free South Califas [CP]
Co-Sponsors: New Zepuha [CMP], Ainin [TR], Great Nepal [CFE]

NOTES That Aurentina has no form of Animal Protection currently in place.

RECOGNISES That animals have the right to be protected by the Law.

DEFINES Animal Abuse as one or more humans inflicting harm or suffering upon any other animal species for reasons other than self defence.

HEREBY Declares the various degrees of animal abuse an offense that may result in prosecution or a fine.

Section 1: Degrees of Animal Abuse

1st Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the death of an Animal.
2nd Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the death of an Animal.
3rd Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the harm and suffering of an Animal.
4th Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the harm and suffering suffering of an Animal.
5th Degree Animal Abuse: Attempting to cause the harm, death or suffering of an Animal.

Section 2: Consequential prosecutions

2a) Once a person is caught or proven to to be committing any of these offences, they are not to be taken straight into custody unless they commit a separate offence which is punishable by arrest. Instead the offender is to be given a court date which will be organised between police and court. If deemed guilty by the the appropriate court, a person will be given the following sentence depending on the degree of animal abuse committed.

2b) the following Sentences, depending on the degree committed, are:

1st Degree: 6-9 Month Prison Sentence
2nd Degree: £290-310 monetary fine and/or 1-2 Month community service. (if eligible)
3rd Degree: £270-290 monetary fine and/or 1-4 Month community service. (if eligible)
4th Degree: £250-270 monetary fine.
5th Degree: £200-250 monetary fine.


Section 3: Rescue

3a) If an animal is deemed by local authorities to in danger, or already hurt, police will be responsible for the rescue of that animal. In the event that an animal is on private property, the owner maintains the right to deny police entry; however, police may be given the right to obtain an entry warrant from local judiciary or animal-related authorities at their discretion, enabling police and workers with police-generated passes to perform specific animal-related tasks on such property regardless of consent, as necessary to prevent abuse, end abuse, provide needed care, for sanitary purposes, or to corral or remove the animal for those listed purposes, or in order to determine if such action is needed. During the rescue operation, police must operate with restraint, causing as little damage to property, persons or other animals as possible.

3b) Police authorities are strongly encouraged to train a proportional number of their staff to be aware of these responsibilities in general and/or as regards particular animals of interest, and also to cultivate active relationships with diverse animal experts who can be reached on an emergency basis.

3c) Once an animal has been recovered, they are to be taken to the local veterinary clinic if necessary for their health, then delivered to local animal shelters to care for and Reno,e the animal at their own discretion.

Section 4: Medicinary

A qualified Veterinarian is not considered to have committed abuse in cases where they preform procedures on an animal in the best interest of the animal's health, so long as anaesthetic has been properly applied as regards procedures which may cause severe suffering will require anaesthetic. Owners without veterinary qualifications are also not to be considered as having committed abuse toward an animal for whom they are the primary caretaker if they are applying prescribed treatments or medicines, or performing procedures thought by medical consensus to be safe for the animal, and particular breed and size especially as regards dosage, at the time of the event.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or prohibiting the commercial organised racing of animals.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or prohibiting animal experimentation.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising the hunting of animals classified as game.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or abolishing the humane slaughter of Livestock for the purpose of providing a food supply.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or punishing the act of protecting an individual or shared food supply by killing or attempting to kill bugs, or kill creatures or disable objects which appear similar and threaten the safety or integrity of such food.

Regarding unintentional harm, suffering or death of an Animal; this bill does not apply to unavoidable incidents during otherwise legal sporting events in which death is not a generally expected outcome, or training events necessary for assuring a realistic competitive result in same, which cause a certain unavoidable degree of pain or suffering which may arise in the context of the normal working conditions of said event.

[Free South Califas]

Also, reworked amendments in case TMPA and/or NCBEA pass.

If TMPA passes, this would simply execute the will of the original author, who made a simple typo and was alerted of it too late to fix it.
ETA: This did pass. I know not everyone will agree on NCBEA, but we owe it to the people to amend TMPA. Please help.

The NCBEA amendment would remove the fine for simply failing to return a survey (I believe it is unfair, authoritarian and potentially discriminatory), but would also encourage the NCB to study noncompliance and take action as necessary.

If it is better to draft a motion for this or something else, or there is something that could be better about these bills, please let me know.

Amend Transportation Ministry Provision Act 2013
Urgency: Very High | Drafted by: Saul Califas (C) | Co-sponsors:

The Aurentine Senate,

Regretting an understandable typographical mistake in an otherwise sound Act,

Also noting the original Author's stated intention to avoid the mistake in question,

Ensuring that all issues regarding navigable waterways are addressed by the correct agency,

Relieving the Transportation Ministry of the undue portion of its burden in this area,

Amends 'Transportation MInistry Provision Act 2013' as such:

In Article 5d, at the end of the sentence, after "agency", adding ", as regards transportation".

Amend National Census Bureau Establishment Act
Urgency: High | Drafted by: Saul Califas (C) | Co-sponsors:

The Aurentine Senate,

Lauding the goals of National Census Bureau Establishment Act (henceforth NCBEA) in general,

Expressing its hope that the census will allow better provision of government services to the peop who need it,

Regretting the potential unintended consequences of levying a punitive fine for simply failing to return a National Census Bureau (henceforth NCB) survey, including potential discrimination against people with cognitive and/or communication differences which make traditional surveys difficult to administer or set aside time for, against those with transitory or no home address, etc.,

Hereby enacts the following changes into law:

1. Revising NCBEA article III such that the prior text is struck out and rendered null and void except for the following parts in this order: "III. Citizens who knowingly submit false information in response to an NCB survey shall be fined no more than 5,000 NSC."
-a. Noting that this does not change the punishment for knowingly submitting false information, but does remove the punishment for simply failing to respond to an NCB survey;

2. Amending NCBEA so as to add the following text: "V. As considered necessary by the Ministry of Treasury and Finance, the NCB may establish a Temporary Census Noncompliance Working Group which includes a reasonable number of equal voting members who are not otherwise paid employees of NCB, and empower it to study the potential causes and factors of noncompliance with NCB surveys and to issue appropriate suggestions which benefit society as a whole and take privacy concerns into consideration. This Working Group must be disbanded after issuing such suggestions, unless the Ministry insists that its continued work is necessary.

VI. With the specific or categorical approval of the Minister of Treasury and Finance, the NCB may in good faith implement such suggestions of the Working Group which do not each specifically incur significant added budgetary or privacy costs, and which would be useful alone or in combination with the others which are implemented.

VII. NCB are encouraged to promote the maximum possible accessibility to NCB surveys across all fields of disability, physical location, and other distinctions; including by deploying updated technology to include people with communication disorders."

[New Zepuha]

Add exception for hunting and organised sports and you have my support.

I have done so: (got ninja;d, but i incorporated those edits and made sure sports are not just not-criminalized, but also covered for normal injuries)

ANIMAL PROTECTION ACT

Drafted by: Liberated Counties [CFE] Free South Califas [CP]
Sponsors:

NOTES That Aurentina has no form of Animal Protection currently in place.

RECOGNISES That animals have the right to be protected by the Law.

DEFINES Animal Abuse as one or more humans inflicting harm or suffering upon any other animal species for reasons other than self defence.

HEREBY Declares the various degrees of animal abuse an offense that may result in prosecution or a fine.

Section 1: Degrees of Animal Abuse

1st Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the death of an Animal.
2nd Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the death of an Animal.
3rd Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the harm and suffering of an Animal.
4th Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the harm and suffering suffering of an Animal.
5th Degree Animal Abuse: Attempting to cause the harm, death or suffering of an Animal.

Section 2: Consequential prosecutions

2a) Once a person is caught or proven to to be committing any of these offences, they are not to be taken straight into custody unless they commit a separate offence which is punishable by arrest. Instead the offender is to be given a court date which will be organised between police and court. If deemed guilty by the the appropriate court, a person will be given the following sentence depending on the degree of animal abuse committed.

2b) the following Sentences, depending on the degree committed, are:

1st Degree: 6-9 Month Prison Sentence
2nd Degree: £290-310 monetary fine and/or 1-2 Month community service. (if eligible)
3rd Degree: £270-290 monetary fine and/or 1-4 Month community service. (if eligible)
4th Degree: £250-270 monetary fine.
5th Degree: £200-250 monetary fine.


Section 3: Rescue

3a) If an animal is deemed by local authorities to in danger, or already hurt, police will be responsible for the rescue of that animal. In the event that an animal is on private property, the owner maintains the right to deny police entry; however, police may be given the right to obtain an entry warrant from local judiciary or animal-related authorities at their discretion, enabling police and workers with police-generated passes to perform specific animal-related tasks on such property regardless of consent, as necessary to prevent abuse, end abuse, provide needed care, for sanitary purposes, or to corral or remove the animal for those listed purposes, or in order to determine if such action is needed. During the rescue operation, police must operate with restraint, causing as little damage to property, persons or other animals as possible.

3b) Police authorities are strongly encouraged to train a proportional number of their staff to be aware of these responsibilities in general and/or as regards particular animals of interest, and also to cultivate active relationships with diverse animal experts who can be reached on an emergency basis.

3c) Once an animal has been recovered, they are to be taken to the local veterinary clinic if necessary for their health, then delivered to local animal shelters to care for and Reno,e the animal at their own discretion.

Section 4: Medicinary

A qualified Veterinarian is not considered to have committed abuse in cases where they preform procedures on an animal in the best interest of the animal's health, so long as anaesthetic has been properly applied as regards procedures which may cause severe suffering will require anaesthetic. Owners without veterinary qualifications are also not to be considered as having committed abuse toward an animal for whom they are the primary caretaker if they are applying prescribed treatments or medicines, or performing procedures thought by medical consensus to be safe for the animal, and particular breed and size especially as regards dosage, at the time of the event.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or prohibiting the commercial organised racing of animals.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or prohibiting animal experimentation.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising the hunting of animals classified as game.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or abolishing the humane slaughter of Livestock for the purpose of providing a food supply.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or punishing the act of protecting an individual or shared food supply by killing or attempting to kill bugs, or kill creatures or disable objects which appear similar and threaten the safety or integrity of such food.

Regarding unintentional harm, suffering or death of an Animal; this bill does not apply to unavoidable incidents during otherwise legal sporting events in which death is not a generally expected outcome, or training events necessary for assuring a realistic competitive result in same, which cause a certain unavoidable degree of pain or suffering which may arise in the context of the normal working conditions of said event.

I will Sponsor this in it's current state.

[Finium]

Of course, if you cared, you'd have suggested the bill be amended so that animals can be killed for food or perhaps even sport, maybe with certain precautions (i.e. no unavoidable pain/suffering).

As for the social contract, obviously as a Communist I reject liberalism. But that's beside the point - your objection was practically derived from a poem. You can code "survival" all kinds of ways, for example, the urge to help without expecting returns (found in very young children), etc. I just didn't see it as in good faith and still don't really.

Under the social contract participants must be able to respect the rights of others, if not then it is purposeless to have society at all. I think that animals deserve our respect because of the process of domestication, but any idea of "rights" cannot exist, rather they deserve protections.

What I mean by "survival" is a state-nature-esque concept of life without comprehension or respect of rights.

[Free South Califas]

Of course, if you cared, you'd have suggested the bill be amended so that animals can be killed for food or perhaps even sport, maybe with certain precautions (i.e. no unavoidable pain/suffering).

As for the social contract, obviously as a Communist I reject liberalism. But that's beside the point - your objection was practically derived from a poem. You can code "survival" all kinds of ways, for example, the urge to help without expecting returns (found in very young children), etc. I just didn't see it as in good faith and still don't really.

Under the social contract participants must be able to respect the rights of others, if not then it is purposeless to have society at all. I think that animals deserve our respect because of the process of domestication, but any idea of "rights" cannot exist, rather they deserve protections.

What I mean by "survival" is a state-nature-esque concept of life without comprehension or respect of rights.

In other words, an ideological backformation. Got it

ETA: To be clear, the "state of nature" assumed by liberalism has nothing to do with any meaningful comprehension of actual nature, but is simply assumed walking backwards from the assumptions of liberals. Of course, liberals would need to believe that the assignment of rights by government were the only thing standing between us and blah blah blah.

[Free South Califas]

On the passage of TMPA, NCBEA, and CMA, here are my repeal and amendment proposals. Will any Senators interested in these laws please help me fix them? Of course, all feedback is welcome.

Looking into the Commerce Ministry Act, I found it was a difficult-to-understand, metaphor-laden mess, which I could not rewrite because of not knowing the many obscure intentions of the several co-authors, so I drafted a separate proposal to strike it from everything. While I have ideological reasons to oppose CMA, this proposal does not address those - it's bad law and should be removed from consideration immediately.

Second draft below. This has been retooled as a repeal proposal. I will keep it ready to be changed into performing some other action against the CMA as necessary/supported. In the meantime, please consider it my justification for my motion.

Repeal the Commerce Ministry Act
Urgency: Very High | Drafted by: Saul Califas (C) | Co-sponsors:

NOTING that the Commerce Ministry Act is unclear, i.e. failing to define 'businesses' yet implying some separation between them and workers' associations of productions including "cooperatives";

1. DISTURBED that "businesses" may "be free to...deny recognition of such groups", including presumably all workers' cooperatives, which are also businesses by any sensible definition, e.g.

-A. Worker unions, associations, and cooperatives are freely to be formed/established. However, businesses can also be free to recognize or deny recognition of such groups, depending on the working environment of the establishment, but shall have no right to deny their workers of their duly given rights.

2. AGITATED by its circular clauses stretching the limits of sensible meaning, for example:

-A. REALIZING that businesses must not be overrun nor be accounted as one of the agencies of the government.

-B. MANDATES that the Ministry will work under the following responsibilities: 5.) The gate-keeping of the Ministry in its inert aim to separate the businesses and the government in the state's political affairs 6.) The cooperation between the businesses and the Government through the Ministry of Commerce. 7.) The assurance of the Ministry that such responsibilities are done efficiently and effectively to avoid future problems such as corporatocracies, privatization and business-government rivalries.

-C. MANDATES that the Ministry shall uphold impartial and unbiased service for the NSG in order for the responsibilities to be done in its maximum extent of effectivity.

3. EMBARRASSED by the possibility that such an Act might pass because of being bundled with the important Acts establishing a transportation ministry and census bureau, despite its problematic grammar which makes it even harder to understand, for example:

-A. WHEREAS, businesses have their own rules and regulations and remains uncontrolled by the NSG Government.
-B. MANDATES that the Ministry will work under the following responsibilities:
-C. OBSERVING that there are less or no regulations of the government concerning the rights and welfare of business institutions.

4. ANNOYED at clauses whose verbs seem to contradict their relevant noun phrases, or carry otherwise unclear meanings, such as:

-A. WHEREAS, there is no existing government agency to protect the boundary between businesses and government institutions.
-B. MANDATES that this Ministry must be created to solidify the aim in placing boundaries and bridges between businesses and the government.
-C. MANDATES that the Ministry will work under the following responsibilities: 4.) The cultural and social barrier between the businesses and the government
-D. MANDATES that the Ministry shall spearhead all economic activities by encouraging friendly foreign nations and states to initiate trade and communication with us and helping to facilitate investment in the country.
--i. Noting that this project of the Ministry to "spearhead all economic activities" seems contradictory to earlier passages;which appear to limit government control of business;

5. CONFUSED and annoyed at the prospect of having its time wasted by passing an Act which does not even clearly create the Ministry it proposes, e.g.

-A. PROPOSES that this new Ministry shall be called the "Ministry of Commerce". MANDATES that this Ministry must be created to solidify the aim in placing boundaries and bridges between businesses and the government.
--i. Noting that the above clauses do not follow any mention of such a new Ministry

6. INSISTING on clarity of purpose and mandate in law, and on clarity of law in general, such that all citizens generally know how to comport themselves at most times; thus rejecting metaphorical language with no inherent relevant meaning to the mandate of the Act, some of it bordering on the meaningless and all of it difficult to understand without sharing specific dialectical features with the author, e.g.

-A. WHEREAS, there is no existing government agency to protect the boundary between businesses and government institutions.
-B. MANDATES that this Ministry must be created to solidify the aim in placing boundaries and bridges between businesses and the government.
-C. MANDATES that this Ministry shall be the open ground between the two aforementioned institutions.
-D. MANDATES that the Ministry will work under the following responsibilities: 5.) The gate-keeping of the Ministry in its inert aim to separate the businesses and the government in the state's political affairs
-E. Overtime pay shall be paid as well.
-F. ESTABLISHES the Ministry of Commerce to be in charge of checking the bounds between businesses and the State,

7. INDIGNANT at clauses which are impossible to carry out, to the extent that they have any sensible meaning, and therefore may have been included merely as propaganda or to enable later exploitation of the law, e.g.

-A. MANDATES that this Ministry shall forward the rights and welfare of both the workers and employees, the businesses and the government.
-B. MANDATES that the Ministry will work under the following responsibilities: 6.) The cooperation between the businesses and the Government through the Ministry of Commerce.
--i. The Senate notes that this vague and nearly meaningless clause could in fact allow the government to draw unlimited tax money for directly aiding the profit of private businesses, without even giving a justification for why taxpayers should "cooperate" with such entities.
-C. All government benefits established at the time being this Act is passed shall be granted to the workers' side of compensation. And these include health discounts, insurances, loan programs and the like.
-D. the freedom of the free market from government involvement and control,
--i.Noting that Aurentina commonly licenses private businesses to: hire employees, pay them less in wages than gained by the product of their labor, wait for up to two weeks to pay such wages without allowing employees to charge interest, provide loans to such businesses, etc.; and, as such, that the concept of a market free from government involvement and control is ideological, utopian and irrelevant at best;

8. DISPLEASED by the Act's sexist assumptions, e.g. "manpower";

9. ANNOYED by the Act's insistence on using two unclear nouns instead of one for emphasis:

-A. GRANTING that the workers' rights must be also upheld by the Ministry with importance and concern through the following privileges and bounds

10. DISMAYED by the possibility that vagueness of language in the Act would mean workers shall be paid at no greater rate for overtime work, and may be denied three weeks of vacation for their entire period of employment, perhaps their entire lives, and that representatives of all businesses could be barred from even publically discussing decisions being made by the government, e.g.
-A. Overtime pay shall be paid as well.
-B. Workers shall be guaranteed 2 weeks of paid vacation
-C. PROHIBITS the businesses to influence government decision-making processes and related affairs of the State.

11. UNCONVINCED that a separate Ministry of Commerce is required to perform such poorly-defined functions when there is already a Ministry of Work;

12. HEREBY REPEALS the Commerce Ministry Act (CMA), strikes it from the record of standing law, and renders it and its full text null and void.
-A. Regardless of the language used to strike standing law, Clause 12 is to be interpreted in good faith to the fullest possible extent with regard to removing CMA from consideration.

Also, reworked amendments in case TMPA and/or NCBEA pass.

If TMPA passes, this would simply execute the will of the original author, who made a simple typo and was alerted of it too late to fix it.
ETA: This did pass. I know not everyone will agree on NCBEA, but we owe it to the people to amend TMPA. Please help.

The NCBEA amendment would remove the fine for simply failing to return a survey (I believe it is unfair, authoritarian and potentially discriminatory), but would also encourage the NCB to study noncompliance and take action as necessary.

If it is better to draft a motion for this or something else, or there is something that could be better about these bills, please let me know.

Amend Transportation Ministry Provision Act 2013
Urgency: Very High | Drafted by: Saul Califas (C) | Co-sponsors:

The Aurentine Senate,

Regretting an understandable typographical mistake in an otherwise sound Act,

Also noting the original Author's stated intention to avoid the mistake in question,

Ensuring that all issues regarding navigable waterways are addressed by the correct agency,

Relieving the Transportation Ministry of the undue portion of its burden in this area,

Amends 'Transportation MInistry Provision Act 2013' as such:

In Article 5d, at the end of the sentence, after "agency", adding ", as regards transportation".

Amend National Census Bureau Establishment Act
Urgency: High | Drafted by: Saul Califas (C) | Co-sponsors:

The Aurentine Senate,

Lauding the goals of National Census Bureau Establishment Act (henceforth NCBEA) in general,

Expressing its hope that the census will allow better provision of government services to the peop who need it,

Regretting the potential unintended consequences of levying a punitive fine for simply failing to return a National Census Bureau (henceforth NCB) survey, including potential discrimination against people with cognitive and/or communication differences which make traditional surveys difficult to administer or set aside time for, against those with transitory or no home address, etc.,

Hereby enacts the following changes into law:

1. Revising NCBEA article III such that the prior text is struck out and rendered null and void except for the following parts in this order: "III. Citizens who knowingly submit false information in response to an NCB survey shall be fined no more than 5,000 NSC."
-a. Noting that this does not change the punishment for knowingly submitting false information, but does remove the punishment for simply failing to respond to an NCB survey;

2. Amending NCBEA so as to add the following text: "V. As considered necessary by the Ministry of Treasury and Finance, the NCB may establish a Temporary Census Noncompliance Working Group which includes a reasonable number of equal voting members who are not otherwise paid employees of NCB, and empower it to study the potential causes and factors of noncompliance with NCB surveys and to issue appropriate suggestions which benefit society as a whole and take privacy concerns into consideration. This Working Group must be disbanded after issuing such suggestions, unless the Ministry insists that its continued work is necessary.

VI. With the specific or categorical approval of the Minister of Treasury and Finance, the NCB may in good faith implement such suggestions of the Working Group which do not each specifically incur significant added budgetary or privacy costs, and which would be useful alone or in combination with the others which are implemented.

VII. NCB are encouraged to promote the maximum possible accessibility to NCB surveys across all fields of disability, physical location, and other distinctions; including by deploying updated technology to include people with communication disorders."

[Free South Califas]

ANIMAL PROTECTION ACT

Drafted by: Liberated Counties [CFE] Free South Califas [CP]
Co-Sponsors: New Zepuha [CMP], Ainin [TR]

NOTES That Aurentina has no form of Animal Protection currently in place.

RECOGNISES That animals have the right to be protected by the Law.

DEFINES Animal Abuse as one or more humans inflicting harm or suffering upon any other animal species for reasons other than self defence.

HEREBY Declares the various degrees of animal abuse an offense that may result in prosecution or a fine.

Section 1: Degrees of Animal Abuse

1st Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the death of an Animal.
2nd Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the death of an Animal.
3rd Degree Animal Abuse: Intentionally causing the harm and suffering of an Animal.
4th Degree Animal Abuse: Unintentionally causing the harm and suffering suffering of an Animal.
5th Degree Animal Abuse: Attempting to cause the harm, death or suffering of an Animal.

Section 2: Consequential prosecutions

2a) Once a person is caught or proven to to be committing any of these offences, they are not to be taken straight into custody unless they commit a separate offence which is punishable by arrest. Instead the offender is to be given a court date which will be organised between police and court. If deemed guilty by the the appropriate court, a person will be given the following sentence depending on the degree of animal abuse committed.

2b) the following Sentences, depending on the degree committed, are:

1st Degree: 6-9 Month Prison Sentence
2nd Degree: £290-310 monetary fine and/or 1-2 Month community service. (if eligible)
3rd Degree: £270-290 monetary fine and/or 1-4 Month community service. (if eligible)
4th Degree: £250-270 monetary fine.
5th Degree: £200-250 monetary fine.


Section 3: Rescue

3a) If an animal is deemed by local authorities to in danger, or already hurt, police will be responsible for the rescue of that animal. In the event that an animal is on private property, the owner maintains the right to deny police entry; however, police may be given the right to obtain an entry warrant from local judiciary or animal-related authorities at their discretion, enabling police and workers with police-generated passes to perform specific animal-related tasks on such property regardless of consent, as necessary to prevent abuse, end abuse, provide needed care, for sanitary purposes, or to corral or remove the animal for those listed purposes, or in order to determine if such action is needed. During the rescue operation, police must operate with restraint, causing as little damage to property, persons or other animals as possible.

3b) Police authorities are strongly encouraged to train a proportional number of their staff to be aware of these responsibilities in general and/or as regards particular animals of interest, and also to cultivate active relationships with diverse animal experts who can be reached on an emergency basis.

3c) Once an animal has been recovered, they are to be taken to the local veterinary clinic if necessary for their health, then delivered to local animal shelters to care for and Reno,e the animal at their own discretion.

Section 4: Medicinary

A qualified Veterinarian is not considered to have committed abuse in cases where they preform procedures on an animal in the best interest of the animal's health, so long as anaesthetic has been properly applied as regards procedures which may cause severe suffering will require anaesthetic. Owners without veterinary qualifications are also not to be considered as having committed abuse toward an animal for whom they are the primary caretaker if they are applying prescribed treatments or medicines, or performing procedures thought by medical consensus to be safe for the animal, and particular breed and size especially as regards dosage, at the time of the event.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or prohibiting the commercial organised racing of animals.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or prohibiting animal experimentation.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising the hunting of animals classified as game.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or abolishing the humane slaughter of Livestock for the purpose of providing a food supply.

Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted as criminalising or punishing the act of protecting an individual or shared food supply by killing or attempting to kill bugs, or kill creatures or disable objects which appear similar and threaten the safety or integrity of such food.

Regarding unintentional harm, suffering or death of an Animal; this bill does not apply to unavoidable incidents during otherwise legal sporting events in which death is not a generally expected outcome, or training events necessary for assuring a realistic competitive result in same, which cause a certain unavoidable degree of pain or suffering which may arise in the context of the normal working conditions of said event.

I will Sponsor this in it's current state.

Much appreciated, you are added. ETA: So is Ainin. Thanks, Senator. This bill is all over the political map now

[Ainin]

I will Sponsor this in it's current state.

Much appreciated, you are added.

As will I.

[Free South Califas]

Sponsors added to neutrality declaration below. Apologies if I've missed anyone.

Declaration of Aurentine Neutrality

Urgency: High| Drafted by: Wolfmanne, Free South Califas | Co-Sponsors: Potenco, Byzantium Imperium

In light of our Senate's lack of desire to join the North American Treaty Organisation (NATO) and its simultaneous opposition to relations with counterposed international blocs, the Aurentine Commonwealth finds itself in an unsustainable position: no affiliation with any world military bloc, nor the protection afforded by neutrality. Given these facts, the most pragmatic option to ensure the long-term security of Aurentina is a positive formal statement of neutrality.

To these ends, this Declaration has been drafted with the goal of appeasing Aurentines both in favor of and against NATO. Those who disfavor NATO alliance shall be pleased that this Declaration ensures we are not later expected to intervene against groups which may seek peace, stability and humanitarian ends in their home region. Contrariwise, Aurentines in favor of NATO shall be relieved that our current international and European position will not be compromised by association with other power blocs.

Section 1 - Neutrality of the Aurentine Commonwealth
a) This bill formally declares Aurentina to be neutral as regards international conflicts, free from the influence of controversial elements in the world of international relations, while neither supporting nor denouncing any major world blocs; and never to participate in any current or future war except as necessary for the self-defense of the Aurentine nation or physically internal communities thereof. Our Declaration is made with the intent to maintain stable relations with our geopolitical neighbors.
b) Exceptions to neutrality may be considered as regards each particular international conflict in which the United Nations Security Council have authorised a resolution which requires military action from member states of the United Nations against another state in the world or against a belligerent in an ongoing conflict, in which Aurentina has the right to contribute a portion of its military assets to assist in carrying out the resolution.
c) Any military operations other than: war; acts of physical aggression; or territorial violation against a belligerent of a conflict, or of another nation without consent; shall not be considered a violation of neutrality.
d) Aurentina may act as a mediator or peacemaker to a conflict with the consent of all participating belligerents, or as required by the United Nations and other international agreements.

Section 2- The Roles and Responsibilites of a neutral Aurentine Commonwealth in war
a) Belligerent armies or war material may not invade or cross Aurentine territory, or make any incursions against Aurentina; the use of Aurentine military force in an attempt to defeat or reverse such incursions shall not be considered as compromising our neutrality in a conflict.
b) Belligerent soldiers who violate the territory of Aurentina may be interned. This excludes escaped prisoners of war, who can not be hindered or aided by the government of Aurentina in their escape to the belligerent side that they are fighting for.
c) Belligerent naval forces may dock in port for a maximum of 24 hours, or the length of time necessary to be repaired to the minimum seaworthy standard, whichever time is shorter.
d) A prize ship captured by a belligerent in the territorial waters of a neutral power must be surrendered by the belligerent to the Aurentine Commonwealth, the crew of which may be interned.

Section 3 - Regarding Armed Neutrality
a) This bill gives the right for the Senate of Aurentina to declare a position of armed neutrality, in a future bill which shall be titled as Declaration of Armed Neutrality on [NAME OF CONFLICT], in the event that the territory of Aurentina is violated, or that any of our assets are physically attacked, or an incursion is made by a belligerent of a conflict to enter the war on the side of a belligerent.
b) Belligerent armies or war material may not invade or cross Aurentine territory or make any incursions against Aurentina. In the process of using military force to defeat and reverse such incursions, which process does not itself violate its position of neutrality, the Aurentine Commonwealth may decide to enter the conflict against the belligerent which violated Aurentine territory.
b) Belligerent troops which violate the territory of Aurentina may be interned by Aurentina. In the event that the Aurentine Commonwealth's armed neutrality has been compromised, then the forces of the belligerents which fight in solidarity with Aurentina, are to repatriated to their home nations; whilst any troops for enemy belligerents are to be classified as prisoners of war and may be interned on this basis. Escaped prisoners of war from an allied nation shall be repatriated by the Aurentine Commonwealth to their home nation, whilst enemies shall be captured by the Aurentine National Gendarmerie and be declared prisoners of war.

[Finium]

Under the social contract participants must be able to respect the rights of others, if not then it is purposeless to have society at all. I think that animals deserve our respect because of the process of domestication, but any idea of "rights" cannot exist, rather they deserve protections.

What I mean by "survival" is a state-nature-esque concept of life without comprehension or respect of rights.

In other words, an ideological backformation. Got it

ETA: To be clear, the "state of nature" assumed by liberalism has nothing to do with any meaningful comprehension of actual nature, but is simply assumed walking backwards from the assumptions of liberals. Of course, liberals would need to believe that the assignment of rights by government were the only thing standing between us and blah blah blah.

I know what the state of nature is. The assignment of rights by the government must correlate to the respect of rights by the assignee, which is not present in animals, despite their intelligence. Unless of course you defend Chimps eating the young of other tribes as justified within human morality?

[Free South Califas]

Sorry, Senator, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't, only to clarify my categorical objection to such abstractions. Regardless, I have probably generated too much heat already over a mere philosophical disagreement; unless someone else wants to continue the conversation, I don't much see the point of us shouting at brick walls between each other.

[Ainin]

Sponsors added to neutrality declaration below. Apologies if I've missed anyone.

Declaration of Aurentine Neutrality

Urgency: High| Drafted by: Wolfmanne, Free South Califas | Co-Sponsors: Potenco, Byzantium Imperium

In light of our Senate's lack of desire to join the North American Treaty Organisation (NATO) and its simultaneous opposition to relations with counterposed international blocs, the Aurentine Commonwealth finds itself in an unsustainable position: no affiliation with any world military bloc, nor the protection afforded by neutrality. Given these facts, the most pragmatic option to ensure the long-term security of Aurentina is a positive formal statement of neutrality.

To these ends, this Declaration has been drafted with the goal of appeasing Aurentines both in favor of and against NATO. Those who disfavor NATO alliance shall be pleased that this Declaration ensures we are not later expected to intervene against groups which may seek peace, stability and humanitarian ends in their home region. Contrariwise, Aurentines in favor of NATO shall be relieved that our current international and European position will not be compromised by association with other power blocs.

Section 1 - Neutrality of the Aurentine Commonwealth
a) This bill formally declares Aurentina to be neutral as regards international conflicts, free from the influence of controversial elements in the world of international relations, while neither supporting nor denouncing any major world blocs; and never to participate in any current or future war except as necessary for the self-defense of the Aurentine nation or physically internal communities thereof. Our Declaration is made with the intent to maintain stable relations with our geopolitical neighbors.
b) Exceptions to neutrality may be considered as regards each particular international conflict in which the United Nations Security Council have authorised a resolution which requires military action from member states of the United Nations against another state in the world or against a belligerent in an ongoing conflict, in which Aurentina has the right to contribute a portion of its military assets to assist in carrying out the resolution.
c) Any military operations other than: war; acts of physical aggression; or territorial violation against a belligerent of a conflict, or of another nation without consent; shall not be considered a violation of neutrality.
d) Aurentina may act as a mediator or peacemaker to a conflict with the consent of all participating belligerents, or as required by the United Nations and other international agreements.

Section 2- The Roles and Responsibilites of a neutral Aurentine Commonwealth in war
a) Belligerent armies or war material may not invade or cross Aurentine territory, or make any incursions against Aurentina; the use of Aurentine military force in an attempt to defeat or reverse such incursions shall not be considered as compromising our neutrality in a conflict.
b) Belligerent soldiers who violate the territory of Aurentina may be interned. This excludes escaped prisoners of war, who can not be hindered or aided by the government of Aurentina in their escape to the belligerent side that they are fighting for.
c) Belligerent naval forces may dock in port for a maximum of 24 hours, or the length of time necessary to be repaired to the minimum seaworthy standard, whichever time is shorter.
d) A prize ship captured by a belligerent in the territorial waters of a neutral power must be surrendered by the belligerent to the Aurentine Commonwealth, the crew of which may be interned.

Section 3 - Regarding Armed Neutrality
a) This bill gives the right for the Senate of Aurentina to declare a position of armed neutrality, in a future bill which shall be titled as Declaration of Armed Neutrality on [NAME OF CONFLICT], in the event that the territory of Aurentina is violated, or that any of our assets are physically attacked, or an incursion is made by a belligerent of a conflict to enter the war on the side of a belligerent.
b) Belligerent armies or war material may not invade or cross Aurentine territory or make any incursions against Aurentina. In the process of using military force to defeat and reverse such incursions, which process does not itself violate its position of neutrality, the Aurentine Commonwealth may decide to enter the conflict against the belligerent which violated Aurentine territory.
b) Belligerent troops which violate the territory of Aurentina may be interned by Aurentina. In the event that the Aurentine Commonwealth's armed neutrality has been compromised, then the forces of the belligerents which fight in solidarity with Aurentina, are to repatriated to their home nations; whilst any troops for enemy belligerents are to be classified as prisoners of war and may be interned on this basis. Escaped prisoners of war from an allied nation shall be repatriated by the Aurentine Commonwealth to their home nation, whilst enemies shall be captured by the Aurentine National Gendarmerie and be declared prisoners of war.

I'll sponsor.

[Liberated Counties]

I will Sponsor this in it's current state.

Much appreciated, you are added. ETA: So is Ainin. Thanks, Senator. This bill is all over the political map now

Lol, everyone has a soft spot for animals. Nepal said he would support this too if we exempted hunting, which we have.

[Great Nepal]

Much appreciated, you are added. ETA: So is Ainin. Thanks, Senator. This bill is all over the political map now

Lol, everyone has a soft spot for animals. Nepal said he would support this too if we exempted hunting, which we have.

Hey, I dont really like animals except cute ones like puppies. And yes, add me as sponsor.

[Finium]

Sorry, Senator, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't, only to clarify my categorical objection to such abstractions. Regardless, I have probably generated too much heat already over a mere philosophical disagreement; unless someone else wants to continue the conversation, I don't much see the point of us shouting at brick walls between each other.

Brick walls ain't gonna shout at themselves you know!