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by Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:43 pm
by The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:53 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway:
St. Augustine was a heretic. His views on sex and sexuality were influenced directly by his former Manichean faith, which condemns sex as something evil and unclean. Augustine imported these beliefs to Christianity and popularized them by cutting out the more heathen stuff (like how Manicheans found the virgin birth of Christ abhorrent and rejected it) and used the established sin of Lust to justify his claims. Passion in sex is not immoral or evil as he claimed it was; enjoying sex with someone you love is not at all sinful nor lustful and it's totally wrong to consider it as such. Augustine, the Puritans, Mormons, etc. are wrong about this.
You may burn me at the stake now if you wish.
by The Archregimancy » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:00 pm
Pope Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:-snip-
With regards to Can. 1364 §1, "heretic[s]" are considered excommunicated. Can. 751 defines heresy as "the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith". Pope St. John Paul II issued, in 1998, Ad tuendam fidem, and Cardinal Ratzinger published a commentary to further clarify it. In this, it is made clear that it is a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" that abortion is gravely immoral. Denial of such thus constitutes heresy and heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae.
The immorality of the death penalty is not generally considered a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" (although it is certainly shameful that so many Catholics still support it), and as thus those supporting it are not excommunicated.
by Auze » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:05 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway:
St. Augustine was a heretic. His views on sex and sexuality were influenced directly by his former Manichean faith, which condemns sex as something evil and unclean. Augustine imported these beliefs to Christianity and popularized them by cutting out the more heathen stuff (like how Manicheans found the virgin birth of Christ abhorrent and rejected it) and used the established sin of Lust to justify his claims. Passion in sex is not immoral or evil as he claimed it was; enjoying sex with someone you love is not at all sinful nor lustful and it's totally wrong to consider it as such. Augustine, the Puritans, Mormons, etc. are wrong about this.
You may burn me at the stake now if you wish.
by Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:05 pm
The Archregimancy wrote:Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway:
St. Augustine was a heretic. His views on sex and sexuality were influenced directly by his former Manichean faith, which condemns sex as something evil and unclean. Augustine imported these beliefs to Christianity and popularized them by cutting out the more heathen stuff (like how Manicheans found the virgin birth of Christ abhorrent and rejected it) and used the established sin of Lust to justify his claims. Passion in sex is not immoral or evil as he claimed it was; enjoying sex with someone you love is not at all sinful nor lustful and it's totally wrong to consider it as such. Augustine, the Puritans, Mormons, etc. are wrong about this.
You may burn me at the stake now if you wish.
Welcome to the Orthodox Church.
Well, heretic might be going a little far (some in the Orthodox Church have attempted to make that argument, but it requires rejecting canons of the 5th and 6th Ecumenical Councils, so isn't a widespread view), but I think you'll find that your basic observations about Augustine and Manicheanism are very close to a commonplace within Orthodoxy; which is why we've never been as influenced by Augustine as Western Christianity.
by Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:12 pm
Auze wrote:Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway:
St. Augustine was a heretic. His views on sex and sexuality were influenced directly by his former Manichean faith, which condemns sex as something evil and unclean. Augustine imported these beliefs to Christianity and popularized them by cutting out the more heathen stuff (like how Manicheans found the virgin birth of Christ abhorrent and rejected it) and used the established sin of Lust to justify his claims. Passion in sex is not immoral or evil as he claimed it was; enjoying sex with someone you love is not at all sinful nor lustful and it's totally wrong to consider it as such. Augustine, the Puritans, Mormons, etc. are wrong about this.
You may burn me at the stake now if you wish.
It's hard for me to tell, so I'm just gonna ask: are you including bans on sex outside of marriage in this rant? Because if not, then both we and the Puritans don't/didn't believe in that. I mean, us Mormons are heretics either way, but I just want to confirm the level of heresy you think we're on.
by Pope Saint Peter the Apostle » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:20 pm
The Archregimancy wrote:Pope Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:With regards to Can. 1364 §1, "heretic[s]" are considered excommunicated. Can. 751 defines heresy as "the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith". Pope St. John Paul II issued, in 1998, Ad tuendam fidem, and Cardinal Ratzinger published a commentary to further clarify it. In this, it is made clear that it is a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" that abortion is gravely immoral. Denial of such thus constitutes heresy and heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae.
The immorality of the death penalty is not generally considered a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" (although it is certainly shameful that so many Catholics still support it), and as thus those supporting it are not excommunicated.
I'm sorry, but this just makes me think of Matthew 23.
But again, I'm not Catholic; so I'm not sure my opinion entirely matters here.
by Bienenhalde » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:59 pm
The Archregimancy wrote:Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway:
St. Augustine was a heretic. His views on sex and sexuality were influenced directly by his former Manichean faith, which condemns sex as something evil and unclean. Augustine imported these beliefs to Christianity and popularized them by cutting out the more heathen stuff (like how Manicheans found the virgin birth of Christ abhorrent and rejected it) and used the established sin of Lust to justify his claims. Passion in sex is not immoral or evil as he claimed it was; enjoying sex with someone you love is not at all sinful nor lustful and it's totally wrong to consider it as such. Augustine, the Puritans, Mormons, etc. are wrong about this.
You may burn me at the stake now if you wish.
Welcome to the Orthodox Church.
Well, heretic might be going a little far (some in the Orthodox Church have attempted to make that argument, but it requires rejecting canons of the 5th and 6th Ecumenical Councils, so isn't a widespread view), but I think you'll find that your basic observations about Augustine and Manicheanism are very close to a commonplace within Orthodoxy; which is why we've never been as influenced by Augustine as Western Christianity.
by Punished UMN » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:15 pm
Pope Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:-snip-
With regards to Can. 1364 §1, "heretic[s]" are considered excommunicated. Can. 751 defines heresy as "the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith". Pope St. John Paul II issued, in 1998, Ad tuendam fidem, and Cardinal Ratzinger published a commentary to further clarify it. In this, it is made clear that it is a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" that abortion is gravely immoral. Denial of such thus constitutes heresy and heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae.
The immorality of the death penalty is not generally considered a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" (although it is certainly shameful that so many Catholics still support it), and as thus those supporting it are not excommunicated.
by Salus Maior » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:23 pm
Punished UMN wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
The difference here is that Biden would likely be under a state of Latae Sentientae excommunication for his support of the pro-choice movement. This happens automatically, and without needing any kind of statement from the clergy.
Now, one could probably debate what it means to be "Accomplices who were needed to commit an action that has an automatic excommunication penalty", but it's not far fetched to say that protecting or drafting laws which support the right to commit an act that incurs excommunication is being accomplice to that act.
And for the record, I'm not in favor of Trump either.
That's for the priest he confesses to to decide.
by Salus Maior » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:25 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway:
St. Augustine was a heretic. His views on sex and sexuality were influenced directly by his former Manichean faith, which condemns sex as something evil and unclean. Augustine imported these beliefs to Christianity and popularized them by cutting out the more heathen stuff (like how Manicheans found the virgin birth of Christ abhorrent and rejected it) and used the established sin of Lust to justify his claims. Passion in sex is not immoral or evil as he claimed it was; enjoying sex with someone you love is not at all sinful nor lustful and it's totally wrong to consider it as such. Augustine, the Puritans, Mormons, etc. are wrong about this.
You may burn me at the stake now if you wish.
by Pope Saint Peter the Apostle » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:40 pm
Punished UMN wrote:Pope Saint Peter the Apostle wrote:With regards to Can. 1364 §1, "heretic[s]" are considered excommunicated. Can. 751 defines heresy as "the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith". Pope St. John Paul II issued, in 1998, Ad tuendam fidem, and Cardinal Ratzinger published a commentary to further clarify it. In this, it is made clear that it is a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" that abortion is gravely immoral. Denial of such thus constitutes heresy and heretics are excommunicated latae sententiae.
The immorality of the death penalty is not generally considered a "truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith" (although it is certainly shameful that so many Catholics still support it), and as thus those supporting it are not excommunicated.
The issue of course is that heresy is not something one can do willy-nilly. You must be formally corrected by an ecclesiastical court in order to be a heretic. Simply not believing something is not enough.
by Luminesa » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:53 pm
The Archregimancy wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
A nominal Catholic, sure.
I'm raising an eyebrow at the number of Catholics in this thread who seem to be uncomfortable with Biden's status as a fellow Catholic.
I acknowledge that Biden is on public record as disagreeing with at least one significant area of Catholic doctrine, but even if this means that that this makes him a bad Catholic - and one that you can't bring yourselves to vote for (though why anyone who foregrounds religion as the basis of their vote would prefer Donald Trump over Joe Biden escapes me) - it surely doesn't make him a nominal or lapsed Catholic; just an imperfect one. And if you can find me a perfect Catholic, I'd very much like to meet them.
Obviously I'm not Catholic myself, so I may well have misunderstood, and I'm very prepared to be corrected on this point, but my understanding was that 'once baptised Catholic, always Catholic' (acknowledging the oversimplification) was a fairly basic point in Catholicism, and one specifically acknowledged in your catechism.Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation
by Luminesa » Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:58 pm
Lord Dominator wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
They're not going to care about his alleged Catholicism, because he doesn't actually believe in any of the important points of Catholicism and none of that is really part of his policy making.
(Emphasis mine) - I see how Biden isn't a true Catholic by his explicit rejection of certain portions of the Catholic position on social policy, saying he believes in none of the important points of Catholicism is something rather extra that I'd like explanation/citation on what you mean.If someone were to campaign and was personally defined by Catholic values and that played a part of their political positions, that's when the bigotry comes out.
So, really, the bigotry is only on meaningful Catholicism. Not so much vague and limp Catholicism.
And to go back to what originally started this (the possibility of Barret being Trump's upcoming SCOTUS nominee), I have yet to really any evidence that she's being attacked on Catholic-specific grounds (for the weak definition of attack), but rather more generic uneasiness the American left has with the American religious right.
by Kowani » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:03 pm
The Archregimancy wrote:Snip
by Luminesa » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:07 pm
by Luminesa » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:09 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:You may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway:
St. Augustine was a heretic. His views on sex and sexuality were influenced directly by his former Manichean faith, which condemns sex as something evil and unclean. Augustine imported these beliefs to Christianity and popularized them by cutting out the more heathen stuff (like how Manicheans found the virgin birth of Christ abhorrent and rejected it) and used the established sin of Lust to justify his claims. Passion in sex is not immoral or evil as he claimed it was; enjoying sex with someone you love is not at all sinful nor lustful and it's totally wrong to consider it as such. Augustine, the Puritans, Mormons, etc. are wrong about this.
You may burn me at the stake now if you wish.
by Kowani » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:12 pm
by Luminesa » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:30 pm
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:42 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Obviously sex in marriage is preferred and better, though. IMO there's nothing wrong with having sex with someone you love even if it's not for procreation. The sin of Lust comes from having sex with people you aren't in a committed relationship with, or alternatively during adultery.
by Salus Maior » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:48 pm
by Salus Maior » Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:54 pm
by Lord Dominator » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:03 pm
Luminesa wrote:Lord Dominator wrote:(Emphasis mine) - I see how Biden isn't a true Catholic by his explicit rejection of certain portions of the Catholic position on social policy, saying he believes in none of the important points of Catholicism is something rather extra that I'd like explanation/citation on what you mean.
And to go back to what originally started this (the possibility of Barret being Trump's upcoming SCOTUS nominee), I have yet to really any evidence that she's being attacked on Catholic-specific grounds (for the weak definition of attack), but rather more generic uneasiness the American left has with the American religious right.
I believe that is probably the case. In any other year she'd get about as much controversy maybe as Gorsuch, probably not Kavanaugh due to there not being a whole lot of dirt on her. But this year is a trashfire and that makes everything worse. I pray that she manages, somehow.
Let us also remember that Ruth Bader Ginsburg is being buried tomorrow, and we should pray for her soul as well. Antonin Scalia was one of her best friends. I am sure that he is praying for her, and thus we also must do the same. Only God holds that extraordinary graces which we cannot see this side of eternity, and we cannot know how RBG's particular judgment shall look. I'm sure it's been said before, but in this heated environment I think it's good to remember that prayer is always powerful, and Christ always has the last word.
by Luminesa » Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:21 pm
Lord Dominator wrote:Luminesa wrote:I believe that is probably the case. In any other year she'd get about as much controversy maybe as Gorsuch, probably not Kavanaugh due to there not being a whole lot of dirt on her. But this year is a trashfire and that makes everything worse. I pray that she manages, somehow.
I think she'll be fine for the most part - so far as I've observed, those on the left seem to agree that the best strategy for them is to avoid anything about her specifically, and try and pin her on overturning Roe vs Wade (which the Democrats have the advantage on in terms of how Americans feel) and ACA.Let us also remember that Ruth Bader Ginsburg is being buried tomorrow, and we should pray for her soul as well. Antonin Scalia was one of her best friends. I am sure that he is praying for her, and thus we also must do the same. Only God holds that extraordinary graces which we cannot see this side of eternity, and we cannot know how RBG's particular judgment shall look. I'm sure it's been said before, but in this heated environment I think it's good to remember that prayer is always powerful, and Christ always has the last word.
Indeed
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:41 pm
You will have no other God but me.
Do not mention God's name in vain.
Remember to sanctify the feasts.
Honor the father and the mother.
Do not kill.
Do not commit impure acts.
Do not steal.
Do not say perjury.
Do not desire the woman of others.
Do not desire the stuff of others.
Pride: deep-rooted conviction of one's own superiority, real or presumed, which translates into an attitude of haughty detachment or even ostentatious contempt towards others, as well as contempt of norms, laws, with respect to others.
Anger: alteration of the emotional state that violently manifests a deep and vindictive aversion to something or someone. Ease to fall into said state of rage, and difficulty to get out of it.
Envy: sadness for the good of others, perceived as own harm. Desire for harm to befall those who are happy, to drag others down to one own misery.
Lust: uncontrolled sensuality, uncontrollable desire for sexual pleasure as an end in itself, lust, carnality, excessive attachment to earthly goods and excessive reluctance to separate from them.
Gluttony: it is not only the mere abandonment and exaggeration in the pleasures of the table, or the total loss of the sense of measure, and therefore the loss of the ability to feel real pleasure for what you are tasting, but also gluttony in its purest sense, unrelated to food. It can be described as insatiability on all levels, therefore both material and spiritual. It's when one always feels empty inside.
Sloth: melancholic torpor, inertia in living and doing good works, laziness, indolence, listlessness, abulia.
Avarice: deriving from the Latin etymology "avaritia", linked to the hunger for riches: cupidity, constant sense of dissatisfaction for what one already has and unbridled need to obtain more and more.
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