NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
218
38%
Eastern Orthodox
41
7%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
3
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
31
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
61
11%
Methodist
11
2%
Baptist
54
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
46
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
24
4%
Other Christian
79
14%
 
Total votes : 568

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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:20 am

The last three pages have been bickering about something that isn't really of any importance at all. Mary was probably fourteen to sixteen when Christ was conceived, which was normal for the time and doesn't even violate canon law in the modern Catholic Church. I don't know why this is even an argument.
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Sundiata
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Sundiata » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:34 am

Punished UMN wrote:The last three pages have been bickering about something that isn't really of any importance at all. Mary was probably fourteen to sixteen when Christ was conceived, which was normal for the time and doesn't even violate canon law in the modern Catholic Church. I don't know why this is even an argument.

It's not so much an argument as a reason for legitimate questions. For example, depending upon when Christ was conceived, why was he concieved specifically when he was?
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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:52 am

The New California Republic wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=260044#009 comes closest.

Sure, but like I said I already discounted that, since in this context it's merely mentioning something that doesn't seem to meet that threshold, and if it did then it would have likely been reported already by Tarsonis.



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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:09 am

Sundiata wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:The last three pages have been bickering about something that isn't really of any importance at all. Mary was probably fourteen to sixteen when Christ was conceived, which was normal for the time and doesn't even violate canon law in the modern Catholic Church. I don't know why this is even an argument.

It's not so much an argument as a reason for legitimate questions. For example, depending upon when Christ was conceived, why was he concieved specifically when he was?


You're asserting a line of inquiry thats not really pertinent to the issue. Just because we can establish a likely time frame, doesn't mean there needs to be a theological justification for. What exactly are you trying to prove here?
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Punished UMN
Minister
 
Posts: 2826
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:29 am

Sundiata wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:The last three pages have been bickering about something that isn't really of any importance at all. Mary was probably fourteen to sixteen when Christ was conceived, which was normal for the time and doesn't even violate canon law in the modern Catholic Church. I don't know why this is even an argument.

It's not so much an argument as a reason for legitimate questions. For example, depending upon when Christ was conceived, why was he concieved specifically when he was?

As Tars said, it's a line of inquiry that is both unnecessary and ungrounded. If there was a reason for the specific timing of Christ's incarnation, it was probably more so that he could teach the Apostles while the Roman Empire dominated the trade routes of the Mediterranean (allowing the spread of the gospel to even distant lands) while also being prior to the destruction of the Temple.
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:25 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Sure, but like I said I already discounted that, since in this context it's merely mentioning something that doesn't seem to meet that threshold, and if it did then it would have likely been reported already by Tarsonis.



Moderators are responsible for the NationStates site. We have no jurisdiction over any third-party sites, forums, or groups, and cannot guarantee their content. Where Moderators participate in off-site groups, they do not act in an official NationStates capacity. Actions that take place outside NationStates should be reported to the administrators of that site or to law enforcement. They may additionally be reported to NationStates via a Getting Help Request, but we will not take action except in the extraordinary case that a user is judged to pose an unacceptable ongoing risk to users of the NationStates site or the site itself. Please don't bring non-NationStates business to the NationStates forums or the Getting Help page.

That's saying don't go to the Moderators if there are issues with non-nationstates stuff, it isn't saying that you can't post non-nationstates stuff here. If we couldn't post non-nationstates stuff here then people would be absolutely barred from saying anything that is going on in their lives, and a quick glance at TET and other threads shows that is patently not the case. You are interpreting the underlined completely incorrectly.
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Old Tyrannia
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Posts: 15724
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:29 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

Moderators are responsible for the NationStates site. We have no jurisdiction over any third-party sites, forums, or groups, and cannot guarantee their content. Where Moderators participate in off-site groups, they do not act in an official NationStates capacity. Actions that take place outside NationStates should be reported to the administrators of that site or to law enforcement. They may additionally be reported to NationStates via a Getting Help Request, but we will not take action except in the extraordinary case that a user is judged to pose an unacceptable ongoing risk to users of the NationStates site or the site itself. Please don't bring non-NationStates business to the NationStates forums or the Getting Help page.

That's saying don't go to the Moderators if there are issues with non-nationstates stuff, it isn't saying that you can't post non-nationstates stuff here. If we couldn't post non-nationstates stuff here then people would be absolutely barred from saying anything that is going on in their lives, and a quick glance at TET and other threads shows that is patently not the case. You are interpreting the underlined completely incorrectly.

For what it's worth, and I am not saying that my opinion should be taken as authoritative or binding on the current moderation team at all, this is certainly how I would have interpreted that section of the rules as a moderator. I don't believe there's any rule against referring to off-site conversations in the forums per se.
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Tarsonis
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Posts: 15557
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:33 pm

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:That's saying don't go to the Moderators if there are issues with non-nationstates stuff, it isn't saying that you can't post non-nationstates stuff here. If we couldn't post non-nationstates stuff here then people would be absolutely barred from saying anything that is going on in their lives, and a quick glance at TET and other threads shows that is patently not the case. You are interpreting the underlined completely incorrectly.

For what it's worth, and I am not saying that my opinion should be taken as authoritative or binding on the current moderation team at all, this is certainly how I would have interpreted that section of the rules as a moderator. I don't believe there's any rule against referring to off-site conversations in the forums per se.


I know you got me on ignore, but what about bringing an external conflict onto the forums? Not merely referencing it, but continuing it. Cause that seems to be the case here.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Old Tyrannia
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Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:42 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:For what it's worth, and I am not saying that my opinion should be taken as authoritative or binding on the current moderation team at all, this is certainly how I would have interpreted that section of the rules as a moderator. I don't believe there's any rule against referring to off-site conversations in the forums per se.


I know you got me on ignore, but what about bringing an external conflict onto the forums? Not merely referencing it, but continuing it. Cause that seems to be the case here.

I don't really want to comment on the specific case here for fear of treading on someone's toes should an active moderator actually become involved, even though I'm 99.999% sure what the response would be if a report was made. I just wanted to make a general clarification of the rules as I understood them.
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Odreria
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Founded: Jun 15, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Odreria » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:47 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Things also occurred on a discord server he was apart of.
So there is more to this, but that's all I shall say.


Offsite issues are offsite. It's expressly against the rules to bring them here.

Regardless of whether it's against the rules or not, the aforementioned drama is really cringe and bad and shouldn't be brought up.

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The Archregimancy
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Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:30 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:For what it's worth, and I am not saying that my opinion should be taken as authoritative or binding on the current moderation team at all, this is certainly how I would have interpreted that section of the rules as a moderator. I don't believe there's any rule against referring to off-site conversations in the forums per se.


I know you got me on ignore, but what about bringing an external conflict onto the forums? Not merely referencing it, but continuing it. Cause that seems to be the case here.


Can we stop this please?

Off-site evidence can't be used to support a report on potentially actionable behaviour; but there's no reason why off-site animosity can't continue in NationStates, nor could we realistically stop this from being the case even if we wanted to.

However, as a matter of etiquette, it reflects poorly on parties who insist on openly carrying an off-site grievance to NS.

Summed up, Old Tyrannia is essentially correct, and I would be grateful if we could drop a topic that has nothing to do with the thread.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tarsonis
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Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:33 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
I know you got me on ignore, but what about bringing an external conflict onto the forums? Not merely referencing it, but continuing it. Cause that seems to be the case here.


Can we stop this please?

Off-site evidence can't be used to support a report on potentially actionable behaviour; but there's no reason why off-site animosity can't continue in NationStates, nor could we realistically stop this from being the case even if we wanted to.

However, as a matter of etiquette, it reflects poorly on parties who insist on openly carrying an off-site grievance to NS.

Summed up, Old Tyrannia is essentially correct, and I would be grateful if we could drop a topic that has nothing to do with the thread.



Fair enough. Was just asking for clarification
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Salus Maior
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:57 pm

Celritannia wrote:I don't understand why your so adamant to refuse to accept a common concept of ancient palestine.


Technically, Palestine didn't exist yet.

It was Judea during the time of Jesus. The region wouldn't be called Palestine until Rome expelled the Jews.

As for how it relates to Mary, I'm not sure where you would find any information on her outside of what's held in Christian tradition. At least that's reliable and written close to the time.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:01 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Arch, not saying I agree with the hypocritical views of some Christians, but there is a vast difference between God willing a 13-15 year old to become pregnant and a 40 year old man raping an 9-12 year old girl. Mary's birth being virginal explicitly means no sex was involved whatsoever. Aisha is another story entirely; specifically, a story of statutory rape. The physical act was involved and that makes all the difference in the world.

And yes, I'm aware that historically child marriage and statutory rape were common practices throughout human history up until recently. I'm not excusing or ignoring any of that. It's a disturbing fact, but a fact nonetheless. Yet as far as the Virgin Birth of Christ is concerned, this really isn't relevant. If we were talking about the kids Joseph and Mary had after Jesus was born then it would be relevant but as it stands you're equating oranges to tangerines.


I mean, it's not really statutory rape before the concept of statutory rape was established. We can't expect everyone in history to live up to modern sexual ethics.
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

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Luminesa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:03 pm

Well geez I didn’t expect this to keep going like this. My intention was not to bring off-site grievances to the thread, but rather to answer a question about biblical apocrypha and the Blessed Virgin Mary. I apologize if I caused a part in any drama. :/

Offsite stuff can’t really be handled on NS, but I will say that while I appreciate the questions about Mary and Marian theology (it’s a topic I enjoy, personally), I would hope that in the future, we can have more...friendly conversations around the Blessed Mother. I feel like the topic of Marian theology has become a monopolized to a part of NS offsite drama, and uhhhh...I’d rather not keep Mary in that corner.

January 1st is the great feast of Mary, Mother of God! Let us remember that on the cross, Jesus gave her to us as our mother, to protect and teach us in the virtues of devout Christianity. In the new year, let us ask Mary to pray for us, that we as a people may approach the world around us with love, courage, and wisdom. May she help us to understand her Son’s will and how He wishes for us to emerge from this awful year of 2020. Let us hold joys in our hearts knowing that she is always there to help us against temptation, against fear, and against despair.
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Suriyanakhon
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Suriyanakhon » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:13 pm

Sorry for the random share, but since it was relevant to the CDT, I wanted to share an academic article (The Dream of the Rood and the Image of Christ in the Early Middle Ages by Jeanette Brock) which is about the depiction of Jesus in early Anglo Saxon poetry.

[23]Though the author of the book of Hebrews states that "Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever" (1) it is clear that humankind's image of Christ has changed throughout the ages. Jaroslav Pelikan, author of Jesus Through the Centuries, writes: "It has been characteristic of each age of history to depict Jesus in accordance with its own character." (2) In "The Dream of the Rood," an Anglo-Saxon poem written in the early Middle Ages, Christ's death and burial is described in a manner which is startlingly different from the original biblical accounts. In order to emphasize the momentous triumph of the crucifixion, the poet of "The Dream of the Rood" depicts Christ as an aggressive warrior who boldly confronts and defeats sin. This depiction is consistent with the honor and courage so highly valued in the early medieval culture.
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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:09 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Celritannia wrote:I don't understand why your so adamant to refuse to accept a common concept of ancient palestine.


Technically, Palestine didn't exist yet.

It was Judea during the time of Jesus. The region wouldn't be called Palestine until Rome expelled the Jews.

As for how it relates to Mary, I'm not sure where you would find any information on her outside of what's held in Christian tradition. At least that's reliable and written close to the time.


Because while we don't have any specific reference to her age in tradition, we have a whole swath of data from which to derive and informed opinion.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Lost Memories
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Lost Memories » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:35 pm

It's nice to see so much attention for the Blessed Mary. In a way or another.
May the deception of the devil be chased away by her gracious aid.

Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you;
blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

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Lost Memories
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Lost Memories » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:19 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:Sorry for the random share, but since it was relevant to the CDT, I wanted to share an academic article (The Dream of the Rood and the Image of Christ in the Early Middle Ages by Jeanette Brock) which is about the depiction of Jesus in early Anglo Saxon poetry.

[23]Though the author of the book of Hebrews states that "Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever" (1) it is clear that humankind's image of Christ has changed throughout the ages. Jaroslav Pelikan, author of Jesus Through the Centuries, writes: "It has been characteristic of each age of history to depict Jesus in accordance with its own character." (2) In "The Dream of the Rood," an Anglo-Saxon poem written in the early Middle Ages, Christ's death and burial is described in a manner which is startlingly different from the original biblical accounts. In order to emphasize the momentous triumph of the crucifixion, the poet of "The Dream of the Rood" depicts Christ as an aggressive warrior who boldly confronts and defeats sin. This depiction is consistent with the honor and courage so highly valued in the early medieval culture.

It's pretty normal for any depiction to be influenced by the writer's mindset. So as to have different depictions and focus across time periods, as that also happens across different cultures.
I would rather wonder if that single poem was representative of the whole or majority of the literary production of that time in england, or if it was an exception or a minor literary current. Basically, into which literary context does that poem places itself?

That sentence about "honor and courage so highly valued in the early medieval culture" sounds more like a cliche, than something an actual historian would say.
... that link doesn't give much informations on the actual document, I could find something by searching
Jeannette C Brock
The Hanover Historical Review, Volume 6 (1998)
https://history.hanover.edu/hhr/hhrvol6.html
The Hanover Historical Review is dedicated to the promotion of excellence in undergraduate scholarship and writing.

Oh, so this Jeannette was a student in 1998.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_of_the_Rood
The Dream of the Rood is one of the Christian poems in the corpus of Old English literature and an example of the genre of dream poetry. Like most Old English poetry, it is written in alliterative verse. Rood is from the Old English word rōd 'pole', or more specifically 'crucifix'. Preserved in the 10th-century Vercelli Book, the poem may be as old as the 8th-century Ruthwell Cross, and is considered as one of the oldest work of Old English literature.

The author of the early english poem Dream of the Rood may be unknown, but it seems people writing reviews on that work are as equally unknown...

I've maybe managed to find something more from google scholar
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... Ages&btnG=
Google dates the article to 1988 instead, how did they manage to get that wrong.. Still not much info about the author of that article, nor other publications.

With the available informations, I would place the reliability of that article on "low".



Regardless of the reliability of that article, interesting to know about (estimatedly) 8th century old-english poems about christianity.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

hmag

pagan american empireWhat is Hell

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when in doubt.

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We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Salus Maior
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Posts: 21987
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:20 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:Sorry for the random share, but since it was relevant to the CDT, I wanted to share an academic article (The Dream of the Rood and the Image of Christ in the Early Middle Ages by Jeanette Brock) which is about the depiction of Jesus in early Anglo Saxon poetry.

[23]Though the author of the book of Hebrews states that "Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever" (1) it is clear that humankind's image of Christ has changed throughout the ages. Jaroslav Pelikan, author of Jesus Through the Centuries, writes: "It has been characteristic of each age of history to depict Jesus in accordance with its own character." (2) In "The Dream of the Rood," an Anglo-Saxon poem written in the early Middle Ages, Christ's death and burial is described in a manner which is startlingly different from the original biblical accounts. In order to emphasize the momentous triumph of the crucifixion, the poet of "The Dream of the Rood" depicts Christ as an aggressive warrior who boldly confronts and defeats sin. This depiction is consistent with the honor and courage so highly valued in the early medieval culture.


I can dig it.
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Luminesa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:10 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The Marlborough wrote:Historically the age in which a person could get married was when they started puberty but often this was delayed for a number of years, especially for non-aristocratic marriages. For example, female Romans could legally get married at the age of 12 but often they wouldn't get married until their mid to late teens and a little bit beyond that for the lower classes. Even in post-Babylonian Exile Judaism, 14 was considered the ideal age for marriage, which was generally after many girls had already started puberty, not to mention that the process of getting married could take up to a year, ie they would have been closer to 15 when all is done and they could legally consummate. Generally speaking, aristocratic families would have been the ones closer to that ideal as opposed to non-aristocratic ones.

It gets more confusing considering that in a lot of cases, engagements would be made at 12 (or even before then) but the marriage itself was often delayed until a few years later. Also as I mentioned earlier, the process of getting married in Jewish families back then could take up to a year but from the beginning of being betrothed a couple would be considered a married couple. Given that ~15 (give or take a year) is when a lot of female aristocrats tended to get married in most societies (and whether or not this would be from the start of betrothal for Jewish ones or when it's done I wouldn't know), and Mary was not one, it's more probable that she wasn't younger than 16 when Jesus was born.


And yet some Christian Islamophobes get worked up about the fact that Aisha was likely somewhere in the range of 9-13 when she married Mohammed, and most likely in the range of 13-16 when the marriage was consummated - acknowledging that, as with Mary, this is all a matter of educated guesswork rather than hard fact.

Though of course Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, whereas Aisha was merely impregnated by Mohammed's semen; so that makes all the difference, obvs.

Apologies to both my fellow Christians and any Muslims passing through the thread for being slightly facetious about this, and I fully appreciate that no one in this thread even raised the point; but the unwillingness to consider the cultural context over child marriage in the Eastern Mediterranean in the relevant periods, and occasional Christian hypocrisy over this point, is the source of some ongoing irritation.

To be fair, I guess what I’ve heard of Aisha is what everyone else has ever heard, but I do know Mary was at least considered an adult when she was most likely pregnant. My own hang-up is I’m not sure if that was the case with Aisha. I’ll fully admit I know little about Islam and about its key characters, but I had heard there was coercion involved? I’m probably wrong, and this is probably more of a question for the IDT.
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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:18 am

Luminesa wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
And yet some Christian Islamophobes get worked up about the fact that Aisha was likely somewhere in the range of 9-13 when she married Mohammed, and most likely in the range of 13-16 when the marriage was consummated - acknowledging that, as with Mary, this is all a matter of educated guesswork rather than hard fact.

Though of course Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, whereas Aisha was merely impregnated by Mohammed's semen; so that makes all the difference, obvs.

Apologies to both my fellow Christians and any Muslims passing through the thread for being slightly facetious about this, and I fully appreciate that no one in this thread even raised the point; but the unwillingness to consider the cultural context over child marriage in the Eastern Mediterranean in the relevant periods, and occasional Christian hypocrisy over this point, is the source of some ongoing irritation.

To be fair, I guess what I’ve heard of Aisha is what everyone else has ever heard, but I do know Mary was at least considered an adult when she was most likely pregnant. My own hang-up is I’m not sure if that was the case with Aisha. I’ll fully admit I know little about Islam and about its key characters, but I had heard there was coercion involved? I’m probably wrong, and this is probably more of a question for the IDT.


Historically that's over age 13
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Benuty
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Benuty » Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:56 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Arch, not saying I agree with the hypocritical views of some Christians, but there is a vast difference between God willing a 13-15 year old to become pregnant and a 40 year old man raping an 9-12 year old girl. Mary's birth being virginal explicitly means no sex was involved whatsoever. Aisha is another story entirely; specifically, a story of statutory rape. The physical act was involved and that makes all the difference in the world.

And yes, I'm aware that historically child marriage and statutory rape were common practices throughout human history up until recently. I'm not excusing or ignoring any of that. It's a disturbing fact, but a fact nonetheless. Yet as far as the Virgin Birth of Christ is concerned, this really isn't relevant. If we were talking about the kids Joseph and Mary had after Jesus was born then it would be relevant but as it stands you're equating oranges to tangerines.


I mean, it's not really statutory rape before the concept of statutory rape was established. We can't expect everyone in history to live up to modern sexual ethics.

I will say this, the hadith's don't go out to make Muhammad a decent husband. I don't recall Joseph ever knocking the royal hell out of Mary because she was displeased with his other wives.
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The Alma Mater
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:14 am

Punished UMN wrote:The last three pages have been bickering about something that isn't really of any importance at all. Mary was probably fourteen to sixteen when Christ was conceived, which was normal for the time and doesn't even violate canon law in the modern Catholic Church. I don't know why this is even an argument.


The comparison between Aisha and Mary was made partly because some christians criticise muslims due to their prophet having sex with someone who may have been 9 at the time.

Of course, one could turn that around and ask which action is more worthy of condemnation: an omnipotent being impregnating a young woman* for the purpose of having her and her family hunted until the offspring is tortured and killed - or a man consummating a marriage with a young girl to prevent her being send back to abusive parents and slavery. You can even expand it to include some pagan religions - people nowadays tend to e.g. condemn Zeus for his many rapes, including of underage boys - but back in the day it was all "Quod Licet Iovi, non licet bovi".

An interesting subject worthy of its own thread imo - but impossible to keep PG13.

However, the main point is that leaving out context does a lot to change narratives (note how I left out *why* Jesus needed to be born for instance) and that societal norms of the time do need to be taken into account when judging.

---
* An act we nowadays would consider her unable to consent to.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Cereskia
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Founded: Apr 01, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cereskia » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:17 am

Is a muslim state allowed to post here?

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