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Pro-stem-cell-research yet pro-Christianity?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Antityranicals
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Founded: May 18, 2019
Capitalizt

Postby Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:17 pm

Kowani wrote:
Antityranicals wrote:I've no problem with harvesting stem cells from adult body tissue, but to harvest them from embryos is, quite simply, murder.

Murder requires legality. Try again.

You. Know. What. I. Mean.
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Catholic Libertarian. Gov't has no authority, all authority is from God. God grants us free will, gov't should not infringe upon it. Legislating morality is wrong. Only exception is protecting rights to life, liberty, and property. Abortion is killing an infant, one of the few things gov't should prevent. Pro-Trump, he's been an effective weapon against real enemies of freedom: The Left, but I wish he were more for free trade, more against deficits. Unrestrained capitalism is a great thing; it does wonders for standards of living of everyone, especially the poor.
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The Anarchical World Order
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Founded: Dec 14, 2019
Anarchy

Postby The Anarchical World Order » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:19 pm

I believe that harvesting stem cells is perfectly okay as long it is from a consenting adult. The moral panic now is well worth the discovery of life extension and other technologies latter. BTW I am an Atheistic humanistic libertarian.

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Estanglia
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Founded: Dec 31, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Estanglia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:20 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Kowani wrote:Murder requires legality. Try again.


Murder is legal in much of Somalia but it's still murder


If you define murder as "the unlawful killing of a person", then it isn't murder.

Antityranicals wrote:
Kowani wrote:Murder requires legality. Try again.

You. Know. What. I. Mean.


Sure we do, but it would help us (and help all those who don't know what you mean) if you'd use terms correctly.
Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality, the UN, the EU
Meh: Labour
Nah: pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, the Republican & Democratic Parties, the Conservatives, big businesses

(Taken 2/5/20)
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Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"

Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

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Antityranicals
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Founded: May 18, 2019
Capitalizt

Postby Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:21 pm

Estanglia wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Murder is legal in much of Somalia but it's still murder


If you define murder as "the unlawful killing of a person", then it isn't murder.

Antityranicals wrote:You. Know. What. I. Mean.


Sure we do, but it would help us (and help all those who don't know what you mean) if you'd use terms correctly.

I disagree with your silly definition. As long as you understand fully what I mean by the word, it is acceptable.
Compass: Right: 9.94, Libertarian: -5.84
Catholic Libertarian. Gov't has no authority, all authority is from God. God grants us free will, gov't should not infringe upon it. Legislating morality is wrong. Only exception is protecting rights to life, liberty, and property. Abortion is killing an infant, one of the few things gov't should prevent. Pro-Trump, he's been an effective weapon against real enemies of freedom: The Left, but I wish he were more for free trade, more against deficits. Unrestrained capitalism is a great thing; it does wonders for standards of living of everyone, especially the poor.
HS student in the USA. Male. XC runner, 17:30 5k, 4:59 mile. I enjoy singing, sushi, eating large quantities of food, and eating large quantities of sushi.

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Estanglia
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Founded: Dec 31, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Estanglia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:28 pm

Antityranicals wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
If you define murder as "the unlawful killing of a person", then it isn't murder.



Sure we do, but it would help us (and help all those who don't know what you mean) if you'd use terms correctly.

I disagree with your silly definition. As long as you understand fully what I mean by the word, it is acceptable.


If you enjoy having to explain what you mean to every person who has zero clue what you actually mean because you've used a word in an incorrect way (or, at the very least, a way that runs counter to the way it is used by a lot of other people) and having people correct you every time you misuse a word (like now), I guess it is.
Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality, the UN, the EU
Meh: Labour
Nah: pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, the Republican & Democratic Parties, the Conservatives, big businesses

(Taken 2/5/20)
Political compass test:
Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.92

8 Values thinks I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"

Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:30 pm

Estanglia wrote:
Antityranicals wrote:I disagree with your silly definition. As long as you understand fully what I mean by the word, it is acceptable.


If you enjoy having to explain what you mean to every person who has zero clue what you actually mean because you've used a word in an incorrect way (or, at the very least, a way that runs counter to the way it is used by a lot of other people) and having people correct you every time you misuse a word (like now), I guess it is.

Almost no one uses murder to refer exclusively to illegal killing, but rather to morally wrong killing.

The "correcting" is the most snobbish thing, because you all know what was meant.
Last edited by United Muscovite Nations on Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:31 pm

Imagine being a linguistic prescriptivist anyway.
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The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
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New Paine
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Paine » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:36 pm

To deny great benefits that stem cell research provides to society is similar to denying the great benefits that vaccines provide to society. If one opposes to either one religious reasons, then don't receive them self therapy or vaccines then.

It is absolutely immoral and degenerate to deny people a prosperous and long life because one believes that an embryo has a soul. Stem cell research and vaccines such as Varicella (chickenpox), rubella (the “R” in the MMR vaccine), hepatitis A, and one preparation of rabies vaccine have prolonged life for humans in ways we haven’t seen before and have improve the quality of life beyond a reasonable doubt. The so-called pro-life position in this instance is not about prolonging life but about the idea that an embryo has a soul.
Last edited by New Paine on Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:36 pm

Antityranicals wrote:
Kowani wrote:Murder requires legality. Try again.

You. Know. What. I. Mean.

That you don’t know how to use words properly, yes.
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If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
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Nuroblav
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nuroblav » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:39 pm

Right...

According to Cambridge dictionary, the defenition of murder is:

The crime of intentionally killing a person


And for crime:

Illegal activities


Make of that what you will.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:40 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Kowani wrote:Murder requires legality. Try again.


Murder is legal in much of Somalia but it's still murder

mur·der
/ˈmərdər/
noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
Spanish Atheist.
If an area was ours for 500 years and yours for 50 years, it should belong to us – you are merely occupiers.
If an area was yours for 500 years and ours for 50 years, it should belong to us – borders must not be changed.
If an area belonged to us 500 years ago but never since then, it should belong to us – it is the cradle of our nation.
If a majority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must enjoy the right of self-determination.
If a minority of our people live there, it must belong to us – they must be protected against your oppression.
All of the above rules apply to us, but not to you.
Our dream of greatness is historical necessity, yours is fascism.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Democratic Socialists

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:41 pm

Antityranicals wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
If you define murder as "the unlawful killing of a person", then it isn't murder.



Sure we do, but it would help us (and help all those who don't know what you mean) if you'd use terms correctly.

I disagree with your silly definition. As long as you understand fully what I mean by the word, it is acceptable.

Definitions are supposed to be objective, not subjective.

When you can cite the original definition, you might have something to go on. In the meantime, you don't.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Estanglia
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Anarchy

Postby Estanglia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:43 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
If you enjoy having to explain what you mean to every person who has zero clue what you actually mean because you've used a word in an incorrect way (or, at the very least, a way that runs counter to the way it is used by a lot of other people) and having people correct you every time you misuse a word (like now), I guess it is.

Almost no one uses murder to refer exclusively to illegal killing, but rather to morally wrong killing.

The "correcting" is the most snobbish thing, because you all know what was meant.


I'm sorry if every dictionary I can find is pointing out that the use of murder in this situation is incorrect, because words have meanings and the purpose of dictionaries is to tell us those meanings.

And if that isn't the purpose of a dictionary, then what's the point of one? A doorstop? Something to fill shelves with? I'm not saying that
we have to forever obey dictionaries and they can never change, but if every dictionary I can find is telling me that the meaning of murder and the way Antityranicals is using the word murder aren't the same, I'm going to err on the side of the dictionaries.
Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality, the UN, the EU
Meh: Labour
Nah: pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, the Republican & Democratic Parties, the Conservatives, big businesses

(Taken 2/5/20)
Political compass test:
Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.92

8 Values thinks I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"

Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

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Page
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:44 pm

Kowani wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Murder is legal in much of Somalia but it's still murder

mur·der
/ˈmərdər/
noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.


Murder is not exclusively a legal term. If the state ceased to exist, there would still be instances of humans killing other humans that would rightfully called murder. The word has meaning outside the law.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:45 pm

Estanglia wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Almost no one uses murder to refer exclusively to illegal killing, but rather to morally wrong killing.

The "correcting" is the most snobbish thing, because you all know what was meant.


I'm sorry if every dictionary I can find is pointing out that the use of murder in this situation is incorrect, because words have meanings and the purpose of dictionaries is to tell us those meanings.

And if that isn't the purpose of a dictionary, then what's the point of one? A doorstop? Something to fill shelves with? I'm not saying that
we have to forever obey dictionaries and they can never change, but if every dictionary I can find is telling me that the meaning of murder and the way Antityranicals is using the word murder aren't the same, I'm going to err on the side of the dictionaries.

Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism.
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Kantian with panentheist and Christian beliefs. Rawlsian Socialist. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Democratic Socialists

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:47 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
I'm sorry if every dictionary I can find is pointing out that the use of murder in this situation is incorrect, because words have meanings and the purpose of dictionaries is to tell us those meanings.

And if that isn't the purpose of a dictionary, then what's the point of one? A doorstop? Something to fill shelves with? I'm not saying that
we have to forever obey dictionaries and they can never change, but if every dictionary I can find is telling me that the meaning of murder and the way Antityranicals is using the word murder aren't the same, I'm going to err on the side of the dictionaries.

Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism.

You know, I'm going to have to create a new thread for this. By engaging in this I've gone against my own guideline. Let's please get back on track.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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New Paine
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Paine » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:49 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
I'm sorry if every dictionary I can find is pointing out that the use of murder in this situation is incorrect, because words have meanings and the purpose of dictionaries is to tell us those meanings.

And if that isn't the purpose of a dictionary, then what's the point of one? A doorstop? Something to fill shelves with? I'm not saying that
we have to forever obey dictionaries and they can never change, but if every dictionary I can find is telling me that the meaning of murder and the way Antityranicals is using the word murder aren't the same, I'm going to err on the side of the dictionaries.

Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism.


You’re just on big ironic mess, you know that Muscovite? :roll: :lol:
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Vetalia
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:50 pm

New Paine wrote:To deny great benefits that stem cell research provides to society is similar to denying the great benefits that vaccines provide to society. If one opposes to either one religious reasons, then don't receive them self therapy or vaccines then.

It is absolutely immoral and degenerate to deny people a prosperous and long life because one believes that an embryo has a soul. Stem cell research and vaccines such as Varicella (chickenpox), rubella (the “R” in the MMR vaccine), hepatitis A, and one preparation of rabies vaccine have prolonged life for humans in ways we haven’t seen before and have improve the quality of life beyond a reasonable doubt. The so-called pro-life position in this instance is not about prolonging life but about the idea that an embryo has a soul.


They're not similar at all. Vaccines are a safe, proven treatment with absolutely no ethical considerations related to their production. Most if not all medical benefits derived from stem cell research have been made using adult stem cells and umbilical cord stem cells, not embryonic stem cells.

Not to mention your line of reasoning is pretty dangerous as it essentially argues the ends justify the means; at what point does it become unacceptable to sacrifice human life to ensure others a "prosperous and long life" under your definition? You could certainly justify any number of things far beyond embryonic stem cell research by that line of reasoning.
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Estanglia
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Anarchy

Postby Estanglia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:50 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
I'm sorry if every dictionary I can find is pointing out that the use of murder in this situation is incorrect, because words have meanings and the purpose of dictionaries is to tell us those meanings.

And if that isn't the purpose of a dictionary, then what's the point of one? A doorstop? Something to fill shelves with? I'm not saying that
we have to forever obey dictionaries and they can never change, but if every dictionary I can find is telling me that the meaning of murder and the way Antityranicals is using the word murder aren't the same, I'm going to err on the side of the dictionaries.

Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism.


Call it what you want, but I like my words to have meaning, and having everyone be able to suddenly declare that word x now has an entirely new meaning and force everyone else to treat that as valid defeats the purpose of having words in the first place.
Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality, the UN, the EU
Meh: Labour
Nah: pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, the Republican & Democratic Parties, the Conservatives, big businesses

(Taken 2/5/20)
Political compass test:
Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.92

8 Values thinks I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"

Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Democratic Socialists

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:52 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Pangurstan wrote:In my opinion, this has the same roots as the debate over abortion. If you think that an embryo has rights, then in addition to opposing abortion, you probably are anti-stem cell research. This question is essentially “are there christians who are pro-choice?”

There are Christians who are pro-choice. Not sure the proportion of Christians that are pro-life/pro-choice though.

Definitely more likely to be the former and less likely to be the latter, if election results are anything to go by.

I actually think the same point (why be in favour of Christianity, now that you've seen its results) applies to abortion, just to a lesser extent, given the lesser extent of opposition to ESCR than that of abortion.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:52 pm

Pangurstan wrote:In my opinion, this has the same roots as the debate over abortion. If you think that an embryo has rights, then in addition to opposing abortion, you probably are anti-stem cell research. This question is essentially “are there christians who are pro-choice?”


Nah, there are definitely people who don't object to stem cell research but do object to abortion: anybody with even very slight consequentialist leanings has a massive incentive to support it, for example.
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:53 pm

Estanglia wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism.


Call it what you want, but I like my words to have meaning, and having everyone be able to suddenly declare that word x now has an entirely new meaning and force everyone else to treat that as valid defeats the purpose of having words in the first place.

Words do have meaning, the meaning that people use them for. Prescriptivism doesn't work because word meaning changes over time, and there are colloquial definitions for words as well. I almost guarantee you that you and the others in this thread have all used "murder" to refer to perfectly lawful killings.
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The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls...
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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:53 pm

Antityranicals wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Not quite the same one. There's more support for embryonic stem cell research than for fetal tissue research. This suggests some opposition to abortion is motivated by other things... desire to force an increase in birthrate, envy at those getting laid, superficial "but fetuses LOOK like babies" reactions that don't apply to the zygotes used in ESCR, etc... take your pick, it's all equally arbitrary and unverifiable what IS motivating anti-abortion types, all this tells us is what ISN'T motivating them, and what ISN'T motivating them is the "life begins at conception" platitude.

Thank goodness. "Life begins at conception" was especially absurd and was missing the point of the common use of the word "life" and the reason people are so indignant at actual murders. But that still leaves behind the question of why anti-abortion types PRETEND to agree with the "life begins at conception" platitude in the first place.

Wait a minute, so you're willing to buy that life doesn't begin at conception? That's just stupid. You could try to make the argument that while life begins at conception, it just doesn't matter until a certain point, but believing that life doesn't begin at conception is about as nonsensical as believing the earth is flat.


Yes. Before birth, it's a part of the mother's body. Separation is when it becomes an independent being with its own life.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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The JELLEAIN Republic
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Ex-Nation

Postby The JELLEAIN Republic » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:54 pm

Why can’t you just take skin cells and revert them to stem cells...
May the autocorrect be with you...
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Estanglia
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Anarchy

Postby Estanglia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:56 pm

I'm not a Christian, but going by the argument "life begins at conception and we shouldn't kill life" (which seems to be what a lot of arguments boil down to at least in my experience), it's still possible to be pro-stem cell research, just not embryonic stem cells/stem cell research.

Presuming there's no moral/religious reason for a Christian to oppose adult stem cell research, then it's totally possible for a Christian to be pro-stem cell research, just not pro-all stem cell research.
Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality, the UN, the EU
Meh: Labour
Nah: pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, the Republican & Democratic Parties, the Conservatives, big businesses

(Taken 2/5/20)
Political compass test:
Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.92

8 Values thinks I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"

Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

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