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by Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:02 pm
by The Alma Mater » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:05 pm
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.
by Nuroblav » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:01 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.
Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.
by Tea Chuggers » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:14 am
Nuroblav wrote:Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.
Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.
It also assumes that:
1. There is only one possible god
2. That not believing in said god automatically constitutes eternal suffering.
3. That the Christian god is specifically the only correct one. You could apply this to pretty much every religion.
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:50 am
by The Alma Mater » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:51 am
Tea Chuggers wrote:Nuroblav wrote:It also assumes that:
1. There is only one possible god
2. That not believing in said god automatically constitutes eternal suffering.
3. That the Christian god is specifically the only correct one. You could apply this to pretty much every religion.
4. that the KJV is the definitely completely absolutely 100% correct and true version of the Bible, and that all of the previous versions that lacked certain features (such as the non-ending to Mark 16, where Jesus never gets revived) or have features that the KJV lacks (such as polytheism or the 11th Commandment) were wrong, and everyone born before the 16th Century automatically goes to Hell.
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:46 am
Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.
Holy Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.
As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."
p 81
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ ... s1c2a2.htm
by Jedi Council » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:48 am
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Jedi Council is in fact, the big gay... The lord of all gays.
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:59 am
Jedi Council wrote:That looks like the worst choose your own adventure book
by Jedi Council » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:00 am
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Jedi Council is in fact, the big gay... The lord of all gays.
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:02 am
by Jedi Council » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:06 am
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Jedi Council is in fact, the big gay... The lord of all gays.
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:36 am
by Alvecia » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:31 am
Lost Memories wrote:Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?
So if you ask "Does God exist materially?" to a christian, the answer is: no.
Likewise, that applies to requests for a material proof as reason to believe. It will always be: no.
The question itself runs on the ignorant premise that christians rely on materiality to explain the divine.
Pagans did believe gods to be inside the universe. Christians don't, as god as understood by pagans and by christians are fundamentally different.The question "Does your God exist materially?" or "show me the material proof of the god you profess" only works with pagans. (or with those christians who are so ignorant of their own faith, to actually think like pagans)
And actually, it was christians to use those questions to wipe out pagan belief. Atheists parroting them against christians is, curious.
by Punished UMN » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:08 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.
Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.
Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.
Or what would be even more interesting: what's the split between Christians who believe in heaven and hell, and those who only believe in heaven?
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:09 am
Alvecia wrote:To whit, I have to ask, what then makes your belief any more worthy of attention or respect than any other
if one believes God to exist entirely outside of the universe, then he can have no effect on the material one.
by State of Turelisa » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:31 am
Lost Memories wrote:Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?
So if you ask "Does God exist materially?" to a christian, the answer is: no.
Likewise, that applies to requests for a material proof as reason to believe. It will always be: no.
The question itself runs on the ignorant premise that christians rely on materiality to explain the divine.
Pagans did believe gods to be inside the universe. Christians don't, as god as understood by pagans and by christians are fundamentally different.The question "Does your God exist materially?" or "show me the material proof of the god you profess" only works with pagans. (or with those christians who are so ignorant of their own faith, to actually think like pagans)
And actually, it was christians to use those questions to wipe out pagan belief. Atheists parroting them against christians is, curious.
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:03 am
State of Turelisa wrote:Lost Memories wrote:Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?
Most 'matter' in the Universe is unobservable, that is, it can't be measured, yet it's existence is implied from the fact that the Universe's small amount of observable, that is, measurable matter is organised in a way which is impossible in current theories of the behaviour of matter.
It isn't material, yet it's effects are real, and it pervades all matter. That is a perfect attribute of God.
by Page » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:12 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.
Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.
Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.
Or what would be even more interesting: what's the split between Christians who believe in heaven and hell, and those who only believe in heaven?
by Alvecia » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:13 am
Lost Memories wrote:Alvecia wrote:I suspect it depends on the Christians you're asking.
Catholicism, 1,3 billion people, 50% of all christians in the world sees it that way.
The orthodox would agree too.
Some mainstream protestants may agree too.
The ones you could entertain the faulty question of "does god exists materially?", in an infinite circle of ad hominem, is probably those protestants who are so far gone to be usually excluded from protestantism as classification. (usually Evangelicals as a macro group, they have no internal unity, like protestants don't)
So pretty much, the majority of christians agree that God isn't a material being which is hidden somewhere inside the universe.
Here an image to give the idea of the branches of christianity, with a rough comparison by size:
(Click to zoom)Alvecia wrote:To whit, I have to ask, what then makes your belief any more worthy of attention or respect than any other
Glad we finally got there, it's a matter of worth, that's the only question which has some sense and value to be asked to a christian (the majority of), when asking reasons to believe.
And to answer that question about worth, a basic understanding of what christians believe in, is necessary.
Which said basic understanding, most people asking the question "does god exist materially?" clearly lack, as either they believe all christians to be evangelicals (who are actually a fragmented minority), or they even conflate christians with pagans, which is even worse maybe.
Dunno if talking about worth of God would still stay inside the title here "Is there a God?"
Maybe if that question wasn't limited to material existence, that could work out.
Claims like:if one believes God to exist entirely outside of the universe, then he can have no effect on the material one.
would also get addressed with just some religious education.
But yet again, no, most christians don't believe that god is only outside the universe.
That belief is called Deism i think. And most christians aren't deists, as far as i know.
These claims are different:
"believes God to exist entirely outside of the universe"
"christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe"
You may have misunderstood one with the other.
by The Alma Mater » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:22 am
Lost Memories wrote:Though, some christians could still see that explaination as valid, just the majority doesn't.
To be clear, "matter" in materialism isn't just "solid things", electricity and gravity are also parts of the universe, so explaining god with them (and them alone) still counts as materialism.
by State of Turelisa » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:30 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.
Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.
Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.
Or what would be even more interesting: what's the split between Christians who believe in heaven and hell, and those who only believe in heaven?
by Lost Memories » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:30 am
Alvecia wrote:My question about worth was more directed in the sense of "what makes a religious belief any different from any other strong held belief", beyond perhaps popularity. The dragon in my garage as an example.
I was born and raised a Catholic, spending my entire primary and secondary education in faith schools, so I like to think I have some basic understanding of what christians believe in.
Ángele Dei,
qui custos es mei,
me, tibi commissum
pietáte supérna,
illúmina, custódi,
rege et gubérna.
Amen
Angel of God,
that you are my guardian,
that I was entrusted to you
by the Heavenly Piety.
illuminate, safeguard,
rule and guide me
Amen.
Angel of God,
my guardian dear,
to whom God’s love commits me here,
ever this day be at my side,
to light and guard, to rule and guide.
Amen.
by Ifreann » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:35 am
Lost Memories wrote:Alvecia wrote:My question about worth was more directed in the sense of "what makes a religious belief any different from any other strong held belief", beyond perhaps popularity. The dragon in my garage as an example.
I was born and raised a Catholic, spending my entire primary and secondary education in faith schools, so I like to think I have some basic understanding of what christians believe in.
The dragon in your garage doesn't give you things like the prayer of the Angel of God.
You may not appreaciate things like that prayer, said differently, see its worth, but many people do.
by The Alma Mater » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:37 am
Lost Memories wrote:Alvecia wrote:My question about worth was more directed in the sense of "what makes a religious belief any different from any other strong held belief", beyond perhaps popularity. The dragon in my garage as an example.
I was born and raised a Catholic, spending my entire primary and secondary education in faith schools, so I like to think I have some basic understanding of what christians believe in.
The dragon in your garage doesn't give you things like the prayer of the Angel of God.
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