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What qualifies as "left wing"?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which of these ideologies do you consider to be on the left?

Liberalism
62
7%
Social Democracy
139
15%
Market Socialism / other non-"full communist" socialism
176
19%
Anarchism
121
13%
Full Communism / Marxism
184
20%
Stalinism
139
15%
Fascism
52
6%
Libertarianism
19
2%
None of these but leftism is a thing
4
0%
None of these because the left/right dichotomy is an illusion
32
3%
 
Total votes : 928

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The United Penguin Commonwealth
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The United Penguin Commonwealth » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:04 am

Risottia wrote:
Haganham wrote:Thing is fascism is opposed to capitalism

:rofl:

Sure.
Did Mussolini or Hitler abolish the private property of the means of mass production? Or stock exchange markets? Or banks?
Hell no.


fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.
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Urlendia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Urlendia » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:18 am

It is the wing on a winged animal that is on the left side of its body.

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Urlendia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Urlendia » Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:20 am

Urlendia wrote:It is the wing on a winged animal that is on the left side of its body.


Image

An example

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Nilokeras
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:31 am

Haganham wrote:Fascism is, famously, the "third position" Which rejects both Capitalism and Marxism.


'Third position' is a moniker famously only really used after the war as an attempt to launder the reputation of fascism because of all the war and murder.

It's also totally immaterial to the actual practice of fascism, since one of the first things fascists do once in power is sideline their ideologists, with a bullet to the head. The second or concurrent thing they do is reconcile with capital and the conservative order and reassure them that the fascists are no threat.

Fascism in actual practice is the purest, most stripped of artifice expression of imperial capitalism, where the authoritarian state crushes all opposition and provides capital with a steady stream of slave labour and looted material to prop up profits and the national standard of living. This makes complete sense when you consider the natural base of fascism, which is the petit bourgeois shopowner class that depends on cheap materials and cheap labour to thrive, and which very happily also benefits the grand bourgeois magnates as well.

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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:45 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Haganham wrote:But then if you go back to a more originalist conception of leftism, opposition to hierarchy, you get another problem.


Your brain on US politics, folks - it makes you come up with totally nonsensical ideas like 'originalist' conceptions of 'leftism'.

If you asked the 'left' of the French revolutionaries if they opposed hierarchy they would look at you like you had sprouted a second head. They didn't see their politics in terms of hierarchy because that wasn't a lens that they used to examine society. If you asked people like Lafayette, their goal was to rationalize the political order to reflect natural hierarchies and remove arbitrary and backwards political structures, not abolish them entirely.
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Suriyanakhon
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Postby Suriyanakhon » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:47 pm

The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:
Risottia wrote: :rofl:

Sure.
Did Mussolini or Hitler abolish the private property of the means of mass production? Or stock exchange markets? Or banks?
Hell no.


fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.


Notably this is not something that scholars on fascism claim.
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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:32 pm

Any system that promotes hierarchy is right wing. Capitalism falls under that term, but right wing ideologies don't necessarily have to be capitalist. It is worth noting that fascism does retain many elements of capitalism, though.

To go back to the subject, anti-hierarchical ideologies (Marxism, anarchism, etc.) are left wing.
Last edited by Alcala-Cordel on Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:29 am

Shermania wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:The true left is the centre-left found in social democracy in the social liberal system. The rest are all right-wing in my eyes.

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Risottia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Risottia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:01 am

The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:
Risottia wrote: :rofl:

Sure.
Did Mussolini or Hitler abolish the private property of the means of mass production? Or stock exchange markets? Or banks?
Hell no.


fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.

Fascism was created by capitalists with the explicit purpose of enforcing the social immobility (aka caste system), typical of mature capitalism, against the "risk" of the left wing taking the power either through revolution or through elections.
Last edited by Risottia on Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Crysuko
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Postby Crysuko » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:55 am

As a card carrying socialist, I will never consider liberals of any kind to be left in any meaningful way. The fact that things such as universal healthcare and human rights are calle Marxist by so many in the US is just sad.
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Nilokeras
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nilokeras » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:09 am

Risottia wrote:
The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:
fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.

Fascism was created by capitalists with the explicit purpose of enforcing the social immobility (aka caste system), typical of mature capitalism, against the "risk" of the left wing taking the power either through revolution or through elections.


I think it's worth highlighting that it's not a conscious caste system though - the aim is not conscious casting of material class distinctions into stone, but the preservation of a particular capitalist mode of production that ends up requiring absolute class immobility as a consequence. It's one of the big internal contradictions within fascism as practiced - a rhetorical national organicism and populism that denies the existence of distinction within nationality that clashes horribly with the need to keep capitalist exploitation running.

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Indiana Controlled Florida
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Postby Indiana Controlled Florida » Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:55 pm

Crysuko wrote:As a card carrying socialist, I will never consider liberals of any kind to be left in any meaningful way. The fact that things such as universal healthcare and human rights are calle Marxist by so many in the US is just sad.

Who is calling humans rights Marxist? And Universal Healthcare is a leftist policy, however, maybe not Marxist.

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West Islate
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby West Islate » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:52 pm

i dislike how libertarianism was originally viewed as a ideology where people emphasized anti authoritarianism and individuality but is now just another fancy term for pro-state capitalist, which contradicts what many aspects that libertarianism originally advocated. so libertarianism will always be a left wing ideology in my perspective

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Conservative Republic Of Huang
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Conservative Republic Of Huang » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:59 pm

Haganham wrote:Thing is fascism is opposed to capitalism, and the degree of opposition to capitalism is, according to most people who describe themselves as leftist, the benchmark of leftism.
That does not mean that fascism is leftist, but it does mean that using a position on capitalism as the measurement of leftism is deeply flawed. (this also, even .ore absurdly, applies to feudalism)

But then if you go back to a more originalist conception of leftism, opposition to hierarchy, you get another problem.
Societies based on anticapitalistic "leftist" platforms are often the most hierarchal in the world today, even more so then corrupt "capitalist" systems like we have in the US, and the less corrupt a capitalist system becomes, the less hierarchal it is, as you can see fro econ freedom indexes.
So is capitalism more left wing then it's ostensibly leftist alternatives?

I do think it's fair to say that fascism is anticapitalist, but it approaches from the other side, opposing it using a reactionary critique that capitalism undermines traditional hierarchies. And yeah, for states like NK, Vietnam, Laos, etc., it's difficult to say they're on the left. NK is barely paying even just lip service to the left, with its constitutional changes. The rest, depends on whether you take the rhetoric of the state at face value.
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Rakhalia
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Postby Rakhalia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:31 pm

Conservative Republic Of Huang wrote:
Haganham wrote:Thing is fascism is opposed to capitalism, and the degree of opposition to capitalism is, according to most people who describe themselves as leftist, the benchmark of leftism.
That does not mean that fascism is leftist, but it does mean that using a position on capitalism as the measurement of leftism is deeply flawed. (this also, even .ore absurdly, applies to feudalism)

But then if you go back to a more originalist conception of leftism, opposition to hierarchy, you get another problem.
Societies based on anticapitalistic "leftist" platforms are often the most hierarchal in the world today, even more so then corrupt "capitalist" systems like we have in the US, and the less corrupt a capitalist system becomes, the less hierarchal it is, as you can see fro econ freedom indexes.
So is capitalism more left wing then it's ostensibly leftist alternatives?

I do think it's fair to say that fascism is anticapitalist, but it approaches from the other side, opposing it using a reactionary critique that capitalism undermines traditional hierarchies. And yeah, for states like NK, Vietnam, Laos, etc., it's difficult to say they're on the left. NK is barely paying even just lip service to the left, with its constitutional changes. The rest, depends on whether you take the rhetoric of the state at face value.

Rhetorically, fascism uses anti-capitalism as a tool, that's true -- though this is generally down to the propensity of fascism to pick up socialist-leaning rhetoric, something Parenti touches on in Blackshirts & Reds. But as far as fascism's productive modus operandi goes, it's effectively a deeply socially-regimented capitalism. After all, what makes the fascist firm, the fascist boss, and fascist capital accumulation any less capitalist than how it functions under liberalism? Is it because fascists are nominally meaner and more authoritative in how they go about it? This doesn't seem like a decent enough explanation. Does it dissolve the boss-worker relationship which serves as the fulcrum of all capitalism? Of course not.

So is fascism, in its essence, a capitalist ideology? Certainly.
Last edited by Rakhalia on Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Drongonia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drongonia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:59 pm

Rakhalia wrote:So is fascism, in its essence, a capitalist ideology? Certainly.

Yes, it is. Under most forms of fascism, capitalism would certainly look much different than it does today. For example, the authoritarian state is much more well-placed to stomp on big business for whatever reason, whether that be for the sake of workers or to push an agenda.

But people who say fascism is leftist are just Ampol brainrotted. Okay, most fascist platforms support Universal Healthcare. Big whoop, so does half the world.

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Noob Topia
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Postby Noob Topia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:01 pm

The line is so thin between what is left and what is right its easier to just not answer

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Pirusavia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Pirusavia » Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:21 pm

The desire for equity, justice, and the reasonable balance of opportunities, rights, and duties for all people.
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Pirusavia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Pirusavia » Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:25 pm

Drongonia wrote:
Rakhalia wrote:So is fascism, in its essence, a capitalist ideology? Certainly.

Yes, it is. Under most forms of fascism, capitalism would certainly look much different than it does today. For example, the authoritarian state is much more well-placed to stomp on big business for whatever reason, whether that be for the sake of workers or to push an agenda.

But people who say fascism is leftist are just Ampol brainrotted. Okay, most fascist platforms support Universal Healthcare. Big whoop, so does half the world.


The reason why a lot of countries, no matter left nor right, look upon universal healthcare is because it is a populist, catch-all policy. However, its nature of seeking equality to medical access makes it a left-wing populist policy.

If you lead a political party, make universal healthcare the main policy and I guarantee you'd easilly win the elections. We've seen that case with UK Labour winning the post-WWII elections with its NHS program, instead of the Tories who bragged about the glory of the nation.
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Pangurstan
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Pangurstan » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:50 pm

Czardas wrote:The left is a priori:

  • revolutionary (as opposed to reformist)—tears down existing systems, rather than perpetuates them
  • materialist (as opposed to idealist)—focuses on reality as it exists, rather than reality as it "should" be
  • progressive (as opposed to reactionary)—an agent of change, rather than a force that reacts to change
  • radical (as opposed to superficial)—centered on the base of society, rather than its superstructure
  • proletarian (as opposed to bourgeois)—for the benefit of the workers, rather than the bosses
The various intra-left arguments focus on a few other divisions not addressed here: the merits of various theories of labour and value; internationalism vs. "socialism in one country"; vanguardism vs. mass line; what type of organisation should be the basis for establishing dual power; who said what about which party cadre in 1954; and, sometimes, whether any of these categories are even real. Practically the only points of agreement are:

  • All of "the left" agrees that fascism is not leftist. Fascists will also probably beat you up if you call them leftists. The claim that fascism is left largely comes from a population of centrists who are, themselves, otherwise indistinguishable from fascists (fishhook theory real)
  • All of "the left" agrees that capitalism is bad. We can't quite call the left anticapitalist simply because there are a variety of social democratic parties, mostly in Latin America, who argue that the form of capitalism they installed/wish to install is genuinely revolutionary and represents a progressive force towards socialism. The merits of this point of view are debated extensively.
  • No one on "the left" really cares that much about the French Revolution, apart from this one girl I know who I put up with mostly because she's hot and smarter than me
  • No one on "the left" likes the US Democratic Party, or any of its "center-left" counterparts in first-world countries. Not that very many other people do either, admittedly
  • Most people on "the left" do not consider the term leftist to be descriptive enough, preferring the terms socialist/communist/anarchist, as appropriate
The short version of this post is that it depends on the context, but in most contexts (outside terms like, as above, "center-left", or "left wing of capital" etc) it's easy to identify if one accepts that set of binaries as valid, and if not, maybe the real left was the friends we made along the way or something.

communism is right-wing under this definition
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The Planet of Marx
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Planet of Marx » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:27 pm

Technoscience Leftwing wrote:I have chosen the following:
* Social Democracy
* Market Socialism / other non-"full communist" socialism
* Anarchism
* Full Communism / Marxism
These concepts advocate the protection of the poor from the intrigues of the ruling class (from capitalist monopolies and from state dignitaries).

Well, I didn't include others. Fascism does not serve the people, but the magnates of capital like Krupp and Thyssen, so this is an ultra-right ideology. Liberalism is left only in comparison with fascism, and in itself it preaches competition with the ruin of the weakest, at least in Russia, right-wing liberalism during the "shock therapy" of the 1990s was just that. Stalinism clogs the left ideology with right-wing remnants (great-power chauvinism, xenophobia, patriarchy). Libertarianism preaches competition with the survival of the fittest, and does not even try to take into account the interests of the majority of the poor who lost in the competition (unlike leftist anarchism).

Leftism is not an illusion, it is simply multi-vector. It is a commitment to social protection, internationalism, secularism, technological progress, revolution and emancipation.

Stalinism doesn't exist and is merely Marxism-Leninism which by the way was coined by Stalin, and it isn't chauvinistic, xenophobic, or patriarchal.

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Pirusavia
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Postby Pirusavia » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:38 pm

"Stalinism" refers to the policies that Josef Stalin enacted during his tenure as the Premier of the Soviet Union. It's as simple as that.
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The Planet of Marx
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Planet of Marx » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:51 pm

Pirusavia wrote:"Stalinism" refers to the policies that Josef Stalin enacted during his tenure as the Premier of the Soviet Union. It's as simple as that.

Well it's nonsense. Simple as. As much so as Trumpism or Trudeauism.
Last edited by The Planet of Marx on Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Picairn
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:54 pm

The Planet of Marx wrote:Stalinism doesn't exist and is merely Marxism-Leninism which by the way was coined by Stalin, and it isn't chauvinistic, xenophobic, or patriarchal.

Google Stalin's antisemitic "rootless cosmopolitan" campaign.
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Poliski
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Poliski » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:14 pm

What leftism is depends on who is asked and where they draw the line of left and right. Socialists see leftism as the divide between socialism and capitalism. More socially focused people see it as the divide between progressiveness and conservatism. Conservatives see leftism as any change that they disagree with.

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