fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.
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by The United Penguin Commonwealth » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:04 am
by Nilokeras » Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:31 am
Haganham wrote:Fascism is, famously, the "third position" Which rejects both Capitalism and Marxism.
by Kubra » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:45 pm
"Hierarchy? absolutely important! Most importantly, milimetre, centimetre, decametre, kilometre..."Nilokeras wrote:Haganham wrote:But then if you go back to a more originalist conception of leftism, opposition to hierarchy, you get another problem.
Your brain on US politics, folks - it makes you come up with totally nonsensical ideas like 'originalist' conceptions of 'leftism'.
If you asked the 'left' of the French revolutionaries if they opposed hierarchy they would look at you like you had sprouted a second head. They didn't see their politics in terms of hierarchy because that wasn't a lens that they used to examine society. If you asked people like Lafayette, their goal was to rationalize the political order to reflect natural hierarchies and remove arbitrary and backwards political structures, not abolish them entirely.
by Suriyanakhon » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:47 pm
The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:Risottia wrote:
Sure.
Did Mussolini or Hitler abolish the private property of the means of mass production? Or stock exchange markets? Or banks?
Hell no.
fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.
by Alcala-Cordel » Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:32 pm
by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:29 am
I already failed the driver's license exam, why are you making me sad This is exactly how I think of leftist thought. I am in the place I marked on the political compass -3.13 -4.77
by Risottia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:01 am
The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:Risottia wrote:
Sure.
Did Mussolini or Hitler abolish the private property of the means of mass production? Or stock exchange markets? Or banks?
Hell no.
fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.
by Crysuko » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:55 am
by Nilokeras » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:09 am
Risottia wrote:The United Penguin Commonwealth wrote:
fascism corrupted capitalism for its own purposes, but given enough time, capitalism would've gradually been replaced with a caste structure, which is the end goal of fascism.
Fascism was created by capitalists with the explicit purpose of enforcing the social immobility (aka caste system), typical of mature capitalism, against the "risk" of the left wing taking the power either through revolution or through elections.
by Indiana Controlled Florida » Thu Nov 24, 2022 3:55 pm
Crysuko wrote:As a card carrying socialist, I will never consider liberals of any kind to be left in any meaningful way. The fact that things such as universal healthcare and human rights are calle Marxist by so many in the US is just sad.
by West Islate » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:52 pm
by Conservative Republic Of Huang » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:59 pm
Haganham wrote:Thing is fascism is opposed to capitalism, and the degree of opposition to capitalism is, according to most people who describe themselves as leftist, the benchmark of leftism.
That does not mean that fascism is leftist, but it does mean that using a position on capitalism as the measurement of leftism is deeply flawed. (this also, even .ore absurdly, applies to feudalism)
But then if you go back to a more originalist conception of leftism, opposition to hierarchy, you get another problem.
Societies based on anticapitalistic "leftist" platforms are often the most hierarchal in the world today, even more so then corrupt "capitalist" systems like we have in the US, and the less corrupt a capitalist system becomes, the less hierarchal it is, as you can see fro econ freedom indexes.
So is capitalism more left wing then it's ostensibly leftist alternatives?
by Rakhalia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:31 pm
Conservative Republic Of Huang wrote:Haganham wrote:Thing is fascism is opposed to capitalism, and the degree of opposition to capitalism is, according to most people who describe themselves as leftist, the benchmark of leftism.
That does not mean that fascism is leftist, but it does mean that using a position on capitalism as the measurement of leftism is deeply flawed. (this also, even .ore absurdly, applies to feudalism)
But then if you go back to a more originalist conception of leftism, opposition to hierarchy, you get another problem.
Societies based on anticapitalistic "leftist" platforms are often the most hierarchal in the world today, even more so then corrupt "capitalist" systems like we have in the US, and the less corrupt a capitalist system becomes, the less hierarchal it is, as you can see fro econ freedom indexes.
So is capitalism more left wing then it's ostensibly leftist alternatives?
I do think it's fair to say that fascism is anticapitalist, but it approaches from the other side, opposing it using a reactionary critique that capitalism undermines traditional hierarchies. And yeah, for states like NK, Vietnam, Laos, etc., it's difficult to say they're on the left. NK is barely paying even just lip service to the left, with its constitutional changes. The rest, depends on whether you take the rhetoric of the state at face value.
by Drongonia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:59 pm
Rakhalia wrote:So is fascism, in its essence, a capitalist ideology? Certainly.
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by Noob Topia » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:01 pm
by Pirusavia » Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:21 pm
by Pirusavia » Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:25 pm
Drongonia wrote:Rakhalia wrote:So is fascism, in its essence, a capitalist ideology? Certainly.
Yes, it is. Under most forms of fascism, capitalism would certainly look much different than it does today. For example, the authoritarian state is much more well-placed to stomp on big business for whatever reason, whether that be for the sake of workers or to push an agenda.
But people who say fascism is leftist are just Ampol brainrotted. Okay, most fascist platforms support Universal Healthcare. Big whoop, so does half the world.
by Pangurstan » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:50 pm
Czardas wrote:The left is a priori:The various intra-left arguments focus on a few other divisions not addressed here: the merits of various theories of labour and value; internationalism vs. "socialism in one country"; vanguardism vs. mass line; what type of organisation should be the basis for establishing dual power; who said what about which party cadre in 1954; and, sometimes, whether any of these categories are even real. Practically the only points of agreement are:
- revolutionary (as opposed to reformist)—tears down existing systems, rather than perpetuates them
- materialist (as opposed to idealist)—focuses on reality as it exists, rather than reality as it "should" be
- progressive (as opposed to reactionary)—an agent of change, rather than a force that reacts to change
- radical (as opposed to superficial)—centered on the base of society, rather than its superstructure
- proletarian (as opposed to bourgeois)—for the benefit of the workers, rather than the bosses
The short version of this post is that it depends on the context, but in most contexts (outside terms like, as above, "center-left", or "left wing of capital" etc) it's easy to identify if one accepts that set of binaries as valid, and if not, maybe the real left was the friends we made along the way or something.
- All of "the left" agrees that fascism is not leftist. Fascists will also probably beat you up if you call them leftists. The claim that fascism is left largely comes from a population of centrists who are, themselves, otherwise indistinguishable from fascists (fishhook theory real)
- All of "the left" agrees that capitalism is bad. We can't quite call the left anticapitalist simply because there are a variety of social democratic parties, mostly in Latin America, who argue that the form of capitalism they installed/wish to install is genuinely revolutionary and represents a progressive force towards socialism. The merits of this point of view are debated extensively.
- No one on "the left" really cares that much about the French Revolution, apart from this one girl I know who I put up with mostly because she's hot and smarter than me
- No one on "the left" likes the US Democratic Party, or any of its "center-left" counterparts in first-world countries. Not that very many other people do either, admittedly
- Most people on "the left" do not consider the term leftist to be descriptive enough, preferring the terms socialist/communist/anarchist, as appropriate
by The Planet of Marx » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:27 pm
Technoscience Leftwing wrote:I have chosen the following:
* Social Democracy
* Market Socialism / other non-"full communist" socialism
* Anarchism
* Full Communism / Marxism
These concepts advocate the protection of the poor from the intrigues of the ruling class (from capitalist monopolies and from state dignitaries).
Well, I didn't include others. Fascism does not serve the people, but the magnates of capital like Krupp and Thyssen, so this is an ultra-right ideology. Liberalism is left only in comparison with fascism, and in itself it preaches competition with the ruin of the weakest, at least in Russia, right-wing liberalism during the "shock therapy" of the 1990s was just that. Stalinism clogs the left ideology with right-wing remnants (great-power chauvinism, xenophobia, patriarchy). Libertarianism preaches competition with the survival of the fittest, and does not even try to take into account the interests of the majority of the poor who lost in the competition (unlike leftist anarchism).
Leftism is not an illusion, it is simply multi-vector. It is a commitment to social protection, internationalism, secularism, technological progress, revolution and emancipation.
by Pirusavia » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:38 pm
by The Planet of Marx » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:51 pm
Pirusavia wrote:"Stalinism" refers to the policies that Josef Stalin enacted during his tenure as the Premier of the Soviet Union. It's as simple as that.
by Picairn » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:54 pm
The Planet of Marx wrote:Stalinism doesn't exist and is merely Marxism-Leninism which by the way was coined by Stalin, and it isn't chauvinistic, xenophobic, or patriarchal.
by Poliski » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:14 pm
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