[Draft] In Stitches

[Verdant Haven]

This issue is inspired by the late-19th and early-20th century challenges the UK's school system faced in enrolling girls from Devonshire, who were occupied as lacemakers (a traditional craft that is massively time-consuming)

3rd Draft

[TITLE] In Stitches

[DESCRIPTION] Educators in the rural reaches of @@NAME@@ have long struggled to convince parents to enroll their children in school, with many families sending their kids out into the workforce instead. Children as young as five are apprenticed in the delicate but extremely labor-intensive craft of traditional @@DEMONYM@@ @@ANIMAL@@ Rug-weaving, and it seems they simply have no time for school.

[VALIDITY] Child labor permitted, significant Basket Weaving industry, no wild children, no vat children

[OPTION 1] "We try to convince them, but these parents just don't understand that education is the only means to guarantee a decent life for their children!" fumes @@random_name()@@, head teacher at Future @@ucfirst(PL(ANIMAL))@@ Elementary. "Have you ever tried convincing somebody to take a benefit a decade down the road instead of a @@CURRENCY@@ in their pocket here and now? They don't even have the education to understand that trade! You must mandate that all children attend a proper school henceforth, and eliminate these absurd exceptions for work!"

[EFFECT 1] starving students can speak eloquently about their hunger

[OPTION 2] "I understand that if I send little @@random_firstname()@@ off to one of those schools, @@HE@@'ll never learn th' art, and won't be able to make a livin'" frets @@random_name()@@, shoving a needle and thread into @@HIS@@ child's hands. "We don't have factory jobs 'round here, and we need th' income to put food on the table. You want children goin' to schools? You need to support us workin' families with subsidies and extra benefits paid for by those rich folk up in the cities!"

[EFFECT 2] urbanites gripe about ivory-tower intellectuals out in the sticks

[OPTION 3a] Validity: Capitalist "They don't have factory jobs? That's where it's all gone wrong!" booms the horrified voice of industrial fat cat @@random_name()@@. "Instead of giving money to those lay-abouts, you should finance a job-creator like myself! I'll set up a new factory making rugs the easy way, and we'll get ten times the output at a fraction of the cost! With all that time saved, you can send them to school when the workday is done."

[EFFECT 3a] every hundredth rug comes with a free child's finger rolled up inside

[OPTION 3b] Validity: Socialist "They don't have factory jobs? That's where it's all gone wrong!" booms the horrified voice of co-op chief @@random_name()@@. "Instead of giving them money for nothing, the state should finance creation of proper jobs for these citizens. We can set up a new factory making rugs the easy way, and we'll get ten times the production for a fraction of the labor! With all that time saved, we can send them to school when the workday is done."

[EFFECT 3b] every hundredth rug comes with a free child's finger rolled up inside

[OPTION 4] "Why is everybody trying to get rid of the old ways?" reads a hand-written letter from elderly life-long rug-weaver @@random_name()@@. "Schools, factories, welfare from some far-off city... all of this distracts from the traditions that we've followed for generations. Recall your so-called 'educators' and your reformist carpetbaggers. Let local people take care of their own affairs, and pursue their own cultures, here and all across @@NAME@@! We know ourselves best."

[EFFECT 4] citizens find themselves separated by a common language

2nd Draft

[TITLE] In Stitches

[DESCRIPTION] Educators in the rural reaches of Western @@NAME@@ have long struggled to convince parents to enroll their children in school, with many preferring to send their kids out into the workforce instead. Children as young as five are apprenticed in the traditional but extremely labor-intensive craft of Western @@DEMONYM@@ @@ANIMAL@@ Rug-weaving, and it seems they simply have no time for school.

[VALIDITY] Child labor permitted, significant Basket Weaving industry, no wild children

[OPTION 1] "We try to convince them, but these parents just don't understand that education is the only means to guarantee a decent life for their children!" fumes @@random_name()@@, head teacher at Future @@ucfirst(PL(ANIMAL))@@ Elementary. "And your permitting of a child workforce doesn't help! Yes, traditional handicrafts are culturally significant, but machines can make products that look nearly the same, in a tenth the time and at a fraction of the cost. You must mandate that all children attend a proper school henceforth, and eliminate these absurd exceptions for work!"

[EFFECT 1] "quantity over quality" is known as the principal's principle

[OPTION 2] "I understand that if I send little @@random_firstname()@@ off to one of those schools, @@HE@@'ll never learn th' art, and won't be able to make a livin'" frets @@random_name()@@, shoving a needle and thread into @@HIS@@ child's hands. "We don't have factory jobs 'round here, nor any others for to use all that book-learnin'. Besides, t'ain't no substitute for hand-made quality! You should use some gov'mint money to send all th' youngfolk in @@NAME@@ to learn th' old ways... getting' out th' schools would do 'em powerful good!"

[EFFECT 2] @@DEMONYM@@ artisans are renowned for both their skills and their illiteracy

[OPTION 3] "It should be obvious to even the most dim-witted individual —¬ who holds an advanced degree in hyperbolic educational innovation — that our current system won't work for all families" declares instructional theorist Professor @@random_name()@@, waving a copy of @@HIS@@ most recent book. "@@NAME@@ needs to fund and develop an entirely new hybrid school system that respects people from diverse backgrounds, with class time dedicated to a modern educational curriculum, traditional hand skills, and also to unlocking each pupil's inner child through guided meditation and interpretive dance! We'll have to extend school hours a bit of course, and we'd better make it year-round, just in case."

[EFFECT 3] kids dream of joining the adult workforce so they can experience time off

[OPTION 4] Validity: Capitalist "They don't have factory jobs? That's where it's all gone wrong!" booms the horrified voice of industrial fat cat @@random_name()@@. "Look at these poor children, wasting their youth on inefficient hand techniques. I'll tell you what, @@LEADER@@. If you'll just grant me a bit of land and some preferential tax treatment, I'll set up a new factory making rugs the easy way, and will give these kids all the work they can handle producing the products of the future! Since they're already used to long days and low pay from their apprenticeships, how about we overlook any wage and standard laws, too?"

[EFFECT 4] every tenth rug comes with a free child's finger rolled up inside

[TITLE] In Stitches

[DESCRIPTION] School administrators in the rural reaches of Western @@NAME@@ have long struggled to enroll students, and the region's test scores are abysmal. Children as young as five are apprenticed to work in the traditional but tedious craft of Western @@DEMONYM@@ @@ANIMAL@@ Rug-weaving, and it seems they simply have no time for school.

[VALIDITY] Child labor permitted, significant Basket Weaving industry, no wild children

[OPTION 1] "We try and we try, but their parents just don't understand that education is the only means to guarantee a decent life for their children!" fumes @@random_name()@@, head teacher at Future @@ucfirst(PL(ANIMAL))@@ Elementary. "And your permitting of a child workforce doesn't help! Yes, traditional handicrafts are culturally significant, but machines can make the same product in a tenth the time and at a fraction of the cost. You must mandate that all children attend a proper school henceforth, and eliminate these absurd exceptions for work!"

[EFFECT 1] the nation's newspapers go undelivered as truancy police crack down


[OPTION 2] "I understand that if I send little @@random_firstname()@@ off to one of those schools, @@HE@@'ll never learn th' art, and won't be able to make a livin'" frets @@random_name()@@, shoving a needle and thread into @@HIS@@ child's hands. "We don't have th' opportunities 'round here for to use all that book-learnin', but a person what knows how t' do th' craft is proper respectable! You should use some gov'mint money to send all th' youngfolk in @@NAME@@ to learn th' old ways... getting' out th' schools would do 'em powerful good!"

[EFFECT 2] @@DEMONYM@@ artisans are renowned for both their skills and their illiteracy


[OPTION 3] "It should be obvious to even the most dim-witted individual — who holds an advanced degree in hyperbolic educational innovation — that our current system just isn't going to work for all kids" declares instructional theorist Professor @@random_name()@@, waving a copy of @@HIS@@ most recent book. "@@NAME@@ needs to fund and develop an entirely new hybrid school system that respects all parties, with class time dedicated to modern educational curriculum, traditional artisanal works, and also to unlocking each pupil's inner child through guided meditation and interpretive dance! Best to make it year-round, just in case."

[EFFECT 3] kids dream of joining the adult workforce so they can experience time off

[Baggieland]

but machines can make the same product in a tenth the time and at a fraction of the cost

If these machines already exist, why would any employer / owner of a factory persist in the traditional, labour intensive ways of old?

[Verdant Haven]

"Very nearly the same" I should have said. I'll amend that in the next draft!

[Bears Armed]

but machines can make the same product in a tenth the time and at a fraction of the cost

If these machines already exist, why would any employer / owner of a factory persist in the traditional, labour intensive ways of old?

Ones certified as made "authentically" in the traditional manner sell for significantly higher prices?

[Trotterdam]

School administrators in the rural reaches of Western @@NAME@@ have long struggled to enroll students,

Why are school administrators trying to enroll children? Generally it's parents' job to find a school for their children (if they think their children need schooling), or in some countries schooling is mandatory and government-run social services make sure all children get sent to school. The administrators from the schools themselves to not go around rounding up children to enroll, they just give you the forms you need to fill in when someone else wants to enroll them.

If these machines already exist, why would any employer / owner of a factory persist in the traditional, labour intensive ways of old?

What kind of industries does child labor actually get used for in the modern day? (Not the late-19th early-20th century.)

[Bears Armed]

School administrators in the rural reaches of Western @@NAME@@ have long struggled to enroll students,

Why are school administrators trying to enroll children?

Protecting their own jobs? If too few children are enrolled then the number of schools might be cut, which might lead to the number of school administrators being cut...

[Verdant Haven]

Ones certified as made "authentically" in the traditional manner sell for significantly higher prices?

Big time. Handmade lace was the high-end jewelry of its day, and there's still a dramatic difference between the price paid for factory-made goods and those of artisans. A $200 IKEA shelf might look similar to a $2000 shelf made by hand. I'll definitely modify the text to make the matter of this distinction much more apparent.

Why are school administrators trying to enroll children? Generally it's parents' job to find a school for their children (if they think their children need schooling), or in some countries schooling is mandatory and government-run social services make sure all children get sent to school. The administrators from the schools themselves to not go around rounding up children to enroll, they just give you the forms you need to fill in when someone else wants to enroll them.

It's an outreach thing. They're modern educators, trying to bring education to an area that doesn't see high enrollment. Town meetings, knocking on doors, encouraging parents to enroll their kids - that sort of thing. I'll adjust wording to clarify.

What kind of industries does child labor actually get used for in the modern day? (Not the late-19th early-20th century.)

A disturbing number of things :-/ Metalwork, brick making, ceramics, textiles and garment work, mining, and jewelry crafting to name a few of the non-agricultural ones. The US Dept. of Labor has a 44 page list of industries around the world where this is sadly the case.

Good feedback all around y'all, much appreciated. I'll get another draft up later today!

[Verdant Haven]

New draft up.

Changelog:

- Acknowledged differences between the handmade stuff and the factory-made alternative, providing better reasons to support each side.
- Clarified that it's parents who enroll their children, and the educators are just trying to convince them to do so.
- Adjusted some words here or there to improve flow, and more thoroughly fit the tone of the overall conversation.
- Added a fourth option, proposing the construction of a factory to employ child laborers in the new arts instead of the old.

The fourth effect line is definitely a bit morbid, but not really out of line with reality. Thoughts on if it is a bit too ick, or the right amount for the context?

[Trotterdam]

Western @@DEMONYM@@ @@ANIMAL@@ Rug-weaving

You might want to be careful with this, because a fair number of animals, both in real life and (I think) in NationStates, are named after the place they're found.

"And your permitting of a child workforce doesn't help!"

I don't like it when issues squarely place all the blame on @@LEADER@@ like this. Child labor was the default in most countries around the world until quite recently, and it's modern improvements in living standards that have allowed us to get rid of it. Meanwhile, even if it's legal, people wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't economically advantageous. Plus, the usual conceit in NationStates is that @@LEADER@@'s policies enjoy popular support (which is why you keep getting reelected, even if you're a democracy), so it's not like it's solely @@LEADER@@'s fault.

By all means complain about child labor, but I'm saying the wording could be better. More "this is bad and we should ban it", less "wait why is this legal in the first place, are you completely crazy?".

You should use some gov'mint money to send all th' youngfolk in @@NAME@@ to learn th' old ways...

What does "learn th' old ways" mean, exactly? Does it mean still sending them to school, just a different type of one? (Which makes this more about what should be taught at schools, which is already covered in #683, and is different from not sending them to school at all.) Or does it mean directly sending children into gainful employment and make them learn their skills on-the-job? The latter seems more likely, given the context, but the wording isn't really clear about it, and it also begs the question what the gov'mint money would be needed for (if the work is commercially viable already, then surely they don't need subsidies that much?).

What would choosing this option mean for parents who don't want their children to work? (Whether for ideological reasons or just because they're already rich and don't need the money.) Would those children still be grabbed out of school and dragged into the workforce anyway?

"getting' out th' schools would do 'em powerful good!"

I know this character isn't supposed to have impeccable grammar, but shouldn't that be "out o'" or "outta" or something?

[OPTION 3] "It should be obvious to even the most dim-witted individual —¬ who holds an advanced degree in hyperbolic educational innovation —"

We did this joke already.

Also, I'm pretty sure that "¬" isn't supposed to be there. Unless you're sneakily implying that the speaker means the opposite of what he's saying. (Math joke, don't worry if you don't get it.)

"@@NAME@@ needs to fund and develop an entirely new hybrid school system that respects people from diverse backgrounds, with class time dedicated to a modern educational curriculum, traditional hand skills, and also to unlocking each pupil's inner child through guided meditation and interpretive dance!"

My same concern as for the previous option applies here: talking about what children should be learning at school is irrelevant until you're able to get them to attend school in the first place. If the problem is that children can't afford to attend school because they're too busy working for a living, then changing school curriculum won't help unless the school starts paying children for attending. (Hey, there's an idea...)

[OPTION 4] Validity: Capitalist "They don't have factory jobs? That's where it's all gone wrong!" booms the horrified voice of industrial fat cat @@random_name()@@. "Look at these poor children, wasting their youth on inefficient hand techniques. I'll tell you what, @@LEADER@@. If you'll just grant me a bit of land and some preferential tax treatment, I'll set up a new factory making rugs the easy way, and will give these kids all the work they can handle producing the products of the future! Since they're already used to long days and low pay from their apprenticeships, how about we overlook any wage and standard laws, too?"

So really, what's the improvement here?

Sure, machinery can replace manual labor. And sure, you can still have that machinery operated by children. But if it won't improve the workers'/childrens' lives, at least marginally, and it's also not economically viable enough of an entrepeneur in a capitalist economy to be able to start up such a business without explicit government support, then why should we do it?

(Although not necessarily realistic, thinking of modernization in the context of child labor makes me think of the "old people don't understand new technology" stereotype, so it might be amusing to do something with that.)

On the other hand, if you can properly justify this option, then I think it should have a socialist double too. I mean, a socialist nation relying on child labor is dubious in itself, but that applies to the whole issue (and hey, I think I just had an idea for a possible new issue!). If you do have a nation with both socialism and child labor, then how mechanized the childrens' work should be is still a valid question.

The fourth effect line is definitely a bit morbid, but not really out of line with reality. Thoughts on if it is a bit too ick, or the right amount for the context?

[EFFECT 4] every tenth rug comes with a free child's finger rolled up inside

Mostly this just triggers my inner pedant (or maybe outer pedant), which calculates that if this line is read literally, it means each child can only produce a maximum of 100 rugs before retiring. (Probably less, really.) You'd think industrialized mass production would want larger numbers than that.

[Verdant Haven]

Did a seriously major overhaul to update this and address the comments so far.

- Adjusted the description slightly
- Significantly altered the options to focus on the economic reasons for child labor, which gives it a consistent and logical through-line (especially in a modern context)
- Effect line changes to reflect the above
- Completely eliminated the old Option/Effect 3, and placed a new option on the end. Previous Option/Effect 4 moved up.
- Socialist doppelganger added for the factory-creation option.

[Urine Town]

/bump

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I think in the modern age, legal child labour and mandatory education aren't necessarily exclusive. In Bolivia, for example, it is legal to work from age 10, but education is mandatory to 14. I believe the idea is a child can be required to go to school, but still engage in employment when not at school.

Not that Bolivia doesn't have problems with low school attendance, of course. And naturally, many countries with high rates of illegal child labour exist and this affects school attendance, for example, Brazil.

However I think option 1 might be best reframed so as not to directly imply whether school is currently mandatory or not.

[Trotterdam]

I think in the modern age, legal child labour and mandatory education aren't necessarily exclusive. In Bolivia, for example, it is legal to work from age 10, but education is mandatory to 14. I believe the idea is a child can be required to go to school, but still engage in employment when not at school.

That depends on the kind of work, I guess. If it's just the occasional helping hand for some spare cash, then yeah, you can do all your work in after-school hours. If your entire business model is built around child labor, you probably want them for enough hours per day that it doesn't leave them much time to do something else. While allowing child labor even as part-time jobs is controversial, it's not nearly as serious as if children working full-time jobs is commonplace. My understanding is that this issue is meant for nations that have widespread full-time child labor (with whatever validity check is necessary to exclude nations that only practice more mild child labor).

[Australian rePublic]

Option 1- What good is $100 in 10 years going to do when you can't afford to buy a $1 loaf of bread now? How do you plan to eliminate poverty NOW?