Are people born evil?

[Hurdergaryp]

Urban youth are usually more religious actuslly. The black church is very close knit and hasn't saved black America from its troubles.

The older black generation took religion seriously, as they saw Christianity as a purveyor of justice in times of racial segregation. The new gens are just lazy bastards with criminal tendencies that begin their crime sprees with "shit, dawg, fuck church! Let's light up a blunt and beat up some Chinese delivery boys fo' their cash, yo!"

There does appear to be a bit of racial stereotyping in that statement, young man.

[Bentonova]

In my opinion, evil is very much a product of nurture, rather than nature.

There are plenty of factors in a child's upbringing that could create 'evil' tendencies whether that be the socio-economic climate they grow up in, the family they grow up in, their geography, religion, etc.

However, to say that evil is ingrained in one's DNA is surely untrue. One is not born evil. Never have I looked at a baby and said "This 2 week old is evil"

[Hurdergaryp]

In my opinion, evil is very much a product of nurture, rather than nature.

There are plenty of factors in a child's upbringing that could create 'evil' tendencies whether that be the socio-economic climate they grow up in, the family they grow up in, their geography, religion, etc.

However, to say that evil is ingrained in one's DNA is surely untrue. One is not born evil. Never have I looked at a baby and said "This 2 week old is evil"

Try changing the child's diaper and see if your opinion suddenly changed.

[Rojava Free State]

Urban youth are usually more religious actuslly. The black church is very close knit and hasn't saved black America from its troubles.

The older black generation took religion seriously, as they saw Christianity as a purveyor of justice in times of racial segregation. The new gens are just lazy bastards with criminal tendencies that begin their crime sprees with "shit, dawg, fuck church! Let's light up a blunt and beat up some Chinese delivery boys fo' their cash, yo!"

Also just gonna point out that the least religious nations on earth such as Japan and Sweden are the most peaceful, and that most people including atheists don't hate Jesus

Japan? The country where monolithic racism is a thing? Where Shintoism prevails? Ok.

Jesus christ if that wasnt some online blackface

[Page]

Urban youth are usually more religious actuslly. The black church is very close knit and hasn't saved black America from its troubles.

The older black generation took religion seriously, as they saw Christianity as a purveyor of justice in times of racial segregation. The new gens are just lazy bastards with criminal tendencies that begin their crime sprees with "shit, dawg, fuck church! Let's light up a blunt and beat up some Chinese delivery boys fo' their cash, yo!"

Also just gonna point out that the least religious nations on earth such as Japan and Sweden are the most peaceful, and that most people including atheists don't hate Jesus

Japan? The country where monolithic racism is a thing? Where Shintoism prevails? Ok.

Yes to not going to church and lighting up a blunt, no to robbing food delivery people.

[Rojava Free State]

The older black generation took religion seriously, as they saw Christianity as a purveyor of justice in times of racial segregation. The new gens are just lazy bastards with criminal tendencies that begin their crime sprees with "shit, dawg, fuck church! Let's light up a blunt and beat up some Chinese delivery boys fo' their cash, yo!"


Japan? The country where monolithic racism is a thing? Where Shintoism prevails? Ok.

Yes to not going to church and lighting up a blunt, no to robbing food delivery people.

Btw even young black people are still far more religious than young white folks. Under Ayytaly's hypothesis, the crime rate in white and Asian America should be highest due to a lack of religion and yet its actually the lowest. Why is that?

[Hurdergaryp]

Yes to not going to church and lighting up a blunt, no to robbing food delivery people.

Btw even young black people are still far more religious than young white folks. Under Ayytaly's hypothesis, the crime rate in white and Asian America should be highest due to a lack of religion and yet its actually the lowest. Why is that?

It does discredit the religious dogma that there cannot be morality without faith quite nicely, doesn't it?

[Lost Memories]

I'd like to hear from Lost Memories about why they think ignorance of human nature is the cause of evil, which is a striking claim.

I guess my last lines from the post you quoted didn't answer your question already?

As a step further, i think human nature as something neutral, like the instinct of predators to hunt and kill preys, or the instinct of the preys to form an herd for protection. It's the mismanagement of human nature which causes evil, and ignorance is at the root of that mismanagement.

I'll try to elaborate more then.
To narrow down human nature even further, it can be traced back to the survival instict. All living beings (of decent complexity) have survival instincts, it's something normal, and humans have their own survival instict too, which again, it's normal to have. For me the survival instict by itself is a neutral trait. Similarly, the more broad sense of "human nature" is neutral too. Human nature could also be called "baseline animal mindset" in this discourse, just a digression.
The peculiarity of human survival instinct, over other traits of human nature, is that survival instinct is: short sighted (aimed at avoiding or escaping immediate danger), individualistic (aimed at protecting the life of the owner of the instict), and unrestrained (it's life or death, you give it all)

But, across the time, we as whole humanity, have progressively developed human culture (structure, organization) to make our own survival instict not necessary.
We no longer need to go hunting in the woods, to fight with animals in a life or death struggle, we have readily available food and items in markets close to our houses. And even the food producers don't need to go hunting and fight animals, we birth, raise, and cull animals without having to go look for them.
We no longer need to steal food from others to survive starvation. Or steal clothes or tools, to clothe ourselves. We have better ways to obtain what we need without creating chains of retailation where the chance of getting hit back harder is high. Since in a survival setting, if you take essential things from others, it'll be the others to need those things to survive now, which just reverses the standing where it'll be the ones lacking to take from others, in an endless cycle of retaliation and stealing.

Evidently someone a long away ago in time, i imagine from a setting where some minor social order had been achieved(by chance maybe), minor social order which was for the better survival and liveliness of everyone, that someone realized the endless cycle of retaliation and stealing was a shitty way to live (worse in comparison to their better minor social order), that cycle disrupts herd cohesion (an other side of human "baseline animal mindset"), and disrupting group cohesion damages everyone's chances of survival, which further exposes everyone to danger and pushes them into survival instict territory to fend off their own life, which further fuels the cycle of retaliation and stealing. Making everyone more miserable, compared to that minor social order they got before.

As such, more rules and organization were developed to further avoid the need to fall back on survival instinct, or to contain it, as it has disruptive effects on the community. And more rules and culture were also developed to further improve and protect the herd cohesion, to make the cohesion safe not only from direct threats (like the effects of survival instinct) but also from unexpected events (natural events, etc).

As a whole, human culture, is rooted and built on the understanding on human nature, composed by survival instinct, herd cohesion, and other things. With then further layers of understanding of the reality outside ourselves. (i'm not going to get into the talk of the difference between cultures)
Conversely, the lack of understanding of human nature, means to don't understand the foundations of human culture, which culture is what raises human liveliness, and lack of culture let us return to baseline animal living style.
In a relative way to look at things, an improvement is good, and the worsening of conditions is evil. Which makes all those actions which go counter or directly damage human culture, as evil. (when said culture protects everyone from harmful excesses, or from a more poor living at animal level)

To go back to the present, we have a culture and social structure where the survival instinct isn't needed. Or if it's actually needed, that's a flaw of that culture.
But sometimes, someone still acts as if they were following their survival instinct, in a setting where they shouldn't need to.
Take someone who steals while they already have what they need. Why do they still do it? Because they believe to need more, but they actually don't, they still feel to need more because they are into a mental state of survival instinct. And they lack the self-awareness to realize their own state, either because of lack of ability to introspect (psychopaths, but those are rare), or they are able to introspect but are ignorant of human nature and it's ramifications and consequences. Regardless, they are stuck in a mindset with typical traits of: shortsightness, individualism, extremism. Literally blindly mad. (it becomes also evil when it isn't needed)
I'm not sure to be able to reconnect every single human evil back to survival instinct, or other traits of human nature (sometimes it's the excess of herd cohesion which turns ugly), but given enough time i think it could be possible.

What is usually called evil, i think, is actually an excess of survival instinct (or other sides of human nature), in a setting where it shouldn't have happened, where there isn't a real threat to the person. Human nature and instinct has its own use and reason to exist, but it's the excesses and out of need reactions and triggers which cause problems, problems which ultimately are labelled as evil.

Why people still act on their survival instinct (or human nature) in obviously an instinctive way, when the usual trigger for an instinctive reaction (the threat to life) isn't there? No idea here.
But why they also can't realize their own state and conclude they are just having a stupid reaction? (and override the reaction with reasoning) That's instead because of ignorance.

[Procyon Prime]

What is usually called evil, i think, is actually an excess of survival instinct (or other sides of human nature), in a setting where it shouldn't have happened, where there isn't a real threat to the person. Human nature and instinct has its own use and reason to exist, but it's the excesses and out of need reactions and triggers which cause problems, problems which ultimately are labelled as evil.

It depends on what you mean by "usually called evil". To me, 'evil' (though subjective) is an act where someone takes pleasure in inflicting misery on someone else, or, in their quest for personal pleasure, is willing to cause undue amounts of suffering to someone else - for example, a serial killer who enjoys killing, or someone who actively pushes for war because they profit from it. To me, that would go beyond survival instinct.

I don't think you can ever really call any act motivated by the survival instinct as truly 'evil'. Everyone's most base instinct is self-preservation. If they commit some action that causes suffering, but it's based on a survival or other self-preservation instinct, then sure it might be 'bad', but labelling it evil goes too far. Again, what constitutes evil, or even bad, is totally subjective - itself based in one's upbringing and their environment and how it shapes them.

[Rojava Free State]

Btw even young black people are still far more religious than young white folks. Under Ayytaly's hypothesis, the crime rate in white and Asian America should be highest due to a lack of religion and yet its actually the lowest. Why is that?

It does discredit the religious dogma that there cannot be morality without faith quite nicely, doesn't it?

If religion is what prevents immorality, right now saudi Arabia ought to be the most peaceful nation on earth and Sweden should be the most violent.

Strange how that isn't the case

[Ifreann]

The older black generation took religion seriously, as they saw Christianity as a purveyor of justice in times of racial segregation. The new gens are just lazy bastards with criminal tendencies that begin their crime sprees with "shit, dawg, fuck church! Let's light up a blunt and beat up some Chinese delivery boys fo' their cash, yo!"


Japan? The country where monolithic racism is a thing? Where Shintoism prevails? Ok.

Yes to not going to church and lighting up a blunt, no to robbing food delivery people.

Marijuana, the drug that definitely causes people to commit violent crimes.

---

It does discredit the religious dogma that there cannot be morality without faith quite nicely, doesn't it?

If religion is what prevents immorality, right now saudi Arabia ought to be the most peaceful nation on earth and Sweden should be the most violent.

Strange how that isn't the case

Your terms don't match.

[Ayytaly]

The older black generation took religion seriously, as they saw Christianity as a purveyor of justice in times of racial segregation. The new gens are just lazy bastards with criminal tendencies that begin their crime sprees with "shit, dawg, fuck church! Let's light up a blunt and beat up some Chinese delivery boys fo' their cash, yo!"

There does appear to be a bit of racial stereotyping in that statement, young man.

My apologies for assuming all delivery boys are Chinese.

The older black generation took religion seriously, as they saw Christianity as a purveyor of justice in times of racial segregation. The new gens are just lazy bastards with criminal tendencies that begin their crime sprees with "shit, dawg, fuck church! Let's light up a blunt and beat up some Chinese delivery boys fo' their cash, yo!"


Japan? The country where monolithic racism is a thing? Where Shintoism prevails? Ok.

Yes to not going to church and lighting up a blunt, no to robbing food delivery people.

Like I said, liberalism gave way to modern urban culture, which to this day champions and glamorizes crime, formication, drug consumption, and self-entitlement, with some racism added to the mix.

Yes to not going to church and lighting up a blunt, no to robbing food delivery people.

Marijuana, the drug that definitely causes people to commit violent crimes.

---

If religion is what prevents immorality, right now saudi Arabia ought to be the most peaceful nation on earth and Sweden should be the most violent.

Strange how that isn't the case

Your terms don't match.

Wasn't Sweden the Viking capital of Europe?

[Stahllicht]

Nobody is born evil. Our experiences and up-bringing, is what makes us either good or evil. I think most bad people, could have been good people, considering their upbringing was better. The quality of our upbringing carries a large effect, on what we become as people. It influences our ideas and beliefs, including the quality of our character.

[Rojava Free State]

Like I said, liberalism gave way to modern urban culture, which to this day champions and glamorizes crime, formication, drug consumption, and self-entitlement, with some racism added to the mix.

If anything the exact opposite of liberalism caused that, which was a bunch of rich white guys losing their Irish and native American laborers to disease and needing new forced labor, so they bought a bunch of kidnapped people from Benin and used them as slaves. Then when someone said "stop doing that, it isn't right," they said "hey they're just animals, they don't have rights." Liberalism was what ended slavery in America and brought about the civil rights movement. The current urban black culture you see is a result of poverty, the history of racism and the song "slob on my knob."

As a minority in america, I can tell you we don't lack in religion. I'm The outlier who's an agnostic Latino as well as that one Latino that's into scene kid music. The white folks do and clearly they're not the ones suffering widespread violence and suffering. So religion hasn't done anything for the Francisco's and Bobby's of America. I'm not saying religion made our neighborhoods violent but it didn't stop the carnage either. I've known guys who could sell dope, bang two skanks and do a full unemployment line of cocaine six days a week and you would see them in the local Catholic church or mosque on the weekend.

[Rojava Free State]

I guess if the question is can a good person turn evil, than we gotta ask the opposite question as well. Can an evil person be reformed?

[Purpelia]

I guess if the question is can a good person turn evil, than we gotta ask the opposite question as well. Can an evil person be reformed?

Anyone can be trained with enough time and effort being invested. We do after all train animals and even people to control and refrain from their most basic biological urges. A better question would be how much we are willing to invest in doing so and if that really is a good investment for society to make given the reality of limited resources.

[Ifreann]

Marijuana, the drug that definitely causes people to commit violent crimes.

---

Your terms don't match.

Wasn't Sweden the Viking capital of Europe?

I don't know. Why do you ask?

[Rojava Free State]

Wasn't Sweden the Viking capital of Europe?

I don't know. Why do you ask?

He's trying to make the case that my statement is incorrect because the Swedes were violent...1000 years ago. Btw they weren't atheist back then, since they believed in the Norse Gods who weren't violent in an intolerant way but were violent just because.

[Ifreann]

I don't know. Why do you ask?

He's trying to make the case that my statement is incorrect because the Swedes were violent...1000 years ago. Btw they weren't atheist back then, since they believed in the Norse Gods who weren't violent in an intolerant way but were violent just because.

Your statement is incorrect because, as I said, your terms don't match. Immorality and violence aren't the same thing.

[Rojava Free State]

He's trying to make the case that my statement is incorrect because the Swedes were violent...1000 years ago. Btw they weren't atheist back then, since they believed in the Norse Gods who weren't violent in an intolerant way but were violent just because.

Your statement is incorrect because, as I said, your terms don't match. Immorality and violence aren't the same thing.

Wonton violence is a type of immorality. When people think of a society without religion, they often think of murder and rape, and that's simply not as widespread in Sweden as it is in a place like Sudan.

[Ifreann]

Your statement is incorrect because, as I said, your terms don't match. Immorality and violence aren't the same thing.

Wonton violence is a type of immorality. When people think of a society without religion, they often think of murder and rape, and that's simply not as widespread in Sweden as it is in a place like Sudan.

Whether violence is moral or not depends on one's moral system. I imagine there are quire a few people who would say that Saudi Arabia is more moral than Sweden, despite or even because of the violence that occurs there.

[State of Turelisa]

We're all born in a state of total depravity.

[Salus Maior]

Wow, this thread is really degenerated into blatant racism.

[Hurdergaryp]

Wow, this thread is really degenerated into blatant racism.

Unfortunately that was to be expected, given how we find ourselves in a cursed realm called NationStates General. Benevolence is rare in this place, but caustic negativity tends to be overabundant.

[Rojava Free State]

Wow, this thread is really degenerated into blatant racism.

I think it's ironic how once upon a time, not long ago, Ayytaly was making the case for why Mugabe's violence toward white farmers was justified and in this thread he just took the piss out of black people.

Newsflash ladies and gentlemen, not all black kids are illiterate dumbasses and most of them aren't criminals either. Half of my friends are black, and this may come as quite of a shock, but black people actually have individuality and don't just come in the same cookie cutter type.