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Have I no right?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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WWII History Geeks
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Postby WWII History Geeks » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:42 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
WWII History Geeks wrote:That was an answer. Most humans have organs and a heartbeat, so yeah, I guess that does define human life.


So, up until the 8th week, there no argument - it's not a human life?

What about someone who is born with a faulty organ? Are they less human?

If your heart stops beating, you stop being a human life?


Your definition sucks. If we take your definition, a dog is a human life, but someone who has just had a heart attack isn't.


hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice.

Happy now? And by the way, according to this definition in the standard dictionary, a fetus is a human.
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Grandtaria: "I would rather live my life each day thinking there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than to live my thinking that there isn't and die to find out there is."
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Rhodmhire
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Postby Rhodmhire » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:43 pm

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Quotation Marks wrote:I am the child of a rape victim. Yeah, the child of the rapist and my mom. I would have been aborted if my mom would've had access to that.

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life? I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade. I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children. I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

Have I no right to life?

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!


If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles. :D


You're one of the reasons I have the courage to get out of bed every day in the morning.
Part of me grew up here. But part of growing up is leaving parts of ourselves behind.

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CIB EMPIRE
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Founded: Jul 29, 2009
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Postby CIB EMPIRE » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:43 pm

Rhodmhire wrote:
CIB EMPIRE wrote:*sniThe land mass of earth is 148.94 million sq
> km. So what is the population of the human race? Estimate is currently at
> 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.).


> Now let us do some translations. For every 148 sq km you get 37,000 acres of
> land.


> 37,000 acre = 148 sq Km meaning that the world has about 3.68*10 to the 10th
> Acres of land. I will be using 37,000,000,000 acres for the math below. Now
> if you were to split that land up between all the people of the earth and
> gave each one a share each would get 5.67 acres of land.


> 37,000,000,000/ 6,525,170,286 = 5.67 acres per person


> That does not sound like a lot does it? Some may say "Much of the land is
> unliveable" and they are right so let look at a area where we could make it
> nearly totally liveable. The Great State of Texas. Texas has a surface area
> of 261,797 square miles.
> 1 square mile = 3,097,600 square yards = 640 acres
> 640 * 261,797 = 167,550,080 acres in Texas


> Now lets say we move all the people of the world to the state of Texas. They
> would each get only .02568 acres of land.
> 167,550,080 / 6,525,170,286 = .02568 acres per person


> That does not sound like alot. But wait how much is .02568 acres?
> 1 acre = 4,840 square yards
> 4,840 * .02568 = 124.29 square yards
> 1 square foot = 1/9 square yard
> 124.29 * 9 = 1,118.61 square feet


> Thusly if we moved every living human to Texas and the split the land amoung
> them they would each get 1,118.61 square feet. Now you may say that still
> does not sound like alot. But consider the average square footage of a
> house.p*


I smell numbers, lots of them. And math problems.

Who brought math into this?

Anyways, I suppose you bring up an interesting point, but there are probably so many problems with that "solution" if that's what you intend to call it (I'm not trying to make a point, I seriously don't know if you mean to call it a solution or not for sure) that I can't even think of off of the top of my head, mainly concerning the vast, differing mindsets of the people who would be living in that "small" area as some would picture it.


Its not a solution, its just proveing that we are not even close to being overcrowded
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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:43 pm

Hydesland wrote:Anyway, I'm annoyed at the sheer arrogance in believing that merely saying "fetus' don't have rights because they aren't human beings" even resembles an argument, as both rights and human beings in this case have circular definitions. Of course fetus' are human beings using actual etymologically sound definitions: human meaning part of the human species, being meaning existing.

You seem to imply that you could only be anti-abortion if you refused to recognise fetuses as humans.

I recognise that fetuses - as "potential persons" - are essentially humans as, if left undisturbed, they will eventually become humans.

However, that does not mean I am opposed to giving people the choice to abort; that would be enforcing my beliefs on someone else.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:43 pm

WWII History Geeks wrote:She (or he) had a heartbeat at 8 weeks. Specialized cells and a shape at 4. At 12, you can tell it's a human. At 20, the nervous system works.I think that constitutes ALIVE.


So's a tapeworm. You'd argue if I wanted one of those out of my body?
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Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
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United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
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Hence us attacking
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Rhodmhire
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Postby Rhodmhire » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:43 pm

WWII History Geeks wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
WWII History Geeks wrote:That was an answer. Most humans have organs and a heartbeat, so yeah, I guess that does define human life.


So, up until the 8th week, there no argument - it's not a human life?

What about someone who is born with a faulty organ? Are they less human?

If your heart stops beating, you stop being a human life?


Your definition sucks. If we take your definition, a dog is a human life, but someone who has just had a heart attack isn't.


hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice.

Happy now? And by the way, according to this definition in the standard dictionary, a fetus is a human.


I might be missing something, and I'm just throwing this out there, but I don't know if the definitions of "human" as in "homo sapien" and "living human life form" are the same.

Just tossing it out there for consideration.
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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:44 pm

Rhodmhire wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles. :D


You're one of the reasons I have the courage to get out of bed every day in the morning.

That and Tyra Banks.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:44 pm

North Suran wrote:You seem to imply that you could only be anti-abortion if you refused to recognise fetuses as humans.


I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that for a very long time now, many arguments for abortion have been seriously overrated.

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WWII History Geeks
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Founded: Mar 12, 2008
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Postby WWII History Geeks » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:44 pm

Araraukar wrote:
WWII History Geeks wrote:She (or he) had a heartbeat at 8 weeks. Specialized cells and a shape at 4. At 12, you can tell it's a human. At 20, the nervous system works.I think that constitutes ALIVE.


So's a tapeworm. You'd argue if I wanted one of those out of my body?


Hey, everything's gotta live.
The goldfish crackers will win. Do you know why they smile? Because when they get inside you they start eating you from the inside out.

Grandtaria: "I would rather live my life each day thinking there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than to live my thinking that there isn't and die to find out there is."
Conservative Morality: "When in Rome, do as the Romans. When out of Rome, do as the Romans anyway, it's not like anyone is ballsy enough to piss off Rome."

Finally fixed: The thread may be gone, but I'm still a "To Hell with This'er!," damnit! :D

Boob sisters with Celestial Divinities!

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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:45 pm

Rhodmhire wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Quotation Marks wrote:I am the child of a rape victim. Yeah, the child of the rapist and my mom. I would have been aborted if my mom would've had access to that.

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life? I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade. I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children. I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

Have I no right to life?

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!


If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles. :D


You're one of the reasons I have the courage to get out of bed every day in the morning.


Sure, blame me. :p
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

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Rhodmhire
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Postby Rhodmhire » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:45 pm

CIB EMPIRE wrote:
Rhodmhire wrote:
CIB EMPIRE wrote:*sniThe land mass of earth is 148.94 million sq
> km. So what is the population of the human race? Estimate is currently at
> 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.).


> Now let us do some translations. For every 148 sq km you get 37,000 acres of
> land.


> 37,000 acre = 148 sq Km meaning that the world has about 3.68*10 to the 10th
> Acres of land. I will be using 37,000,000,000 acres for the math below. Now
> if you were to split that land up between all the people of the earth and
> gave each one a share each would get 5.67 acres of land.


> 37,000,000,000/ 6,525,170,286 = 5.67 acres per person


> That does not sound like a lot does it? Some may say "Much of the land is
> unliveable" and they are right so let look at a area where we could make it
> nearly totally liveable. The Great State of Texas. Texas has a surface area
> of 261,797 square miles.
> 1 square mile = 3,097,600 square yards = 640 acres
> 640 * 261,797 = 167,550,080 acres in Texas


> Now lets say we move all the people of the world to the state of Texas. They
> would each get only .02568 acres of land.
> 167,550,080 / 6,525,170,286 = .02568 acres per person


> That does not sound like alot. But wait how much is .02568 acres?
> 1 acre = 4,840 square yards
> 4,840 * .02568 = 124.29 square yards
> 1 square foot = 1/9 square yard
> 124.29 * 9 = 1,118.61 square feet


> Thusly if we moved every living human to Texas and the split the land amoung
> them they would each get 1,118.61 square feet. Now you may say that still
> does not sound like alot. But consider the average square footage of a
> house.p*


I smell numbers, lots of them. And math problems.

Who brought math into this?

Anyways, I suppose you bring up an interesting point, but there are probably so many problems with that "solution" if that's what you intend to call it (I'm not trying to make a point, I seriously don't know if you mean to call it a solution or not for sure) that I can't even think of off of the top of my head, mainly concerning the vast, differing mindsets of the people who would be living in that "small" area as some would picture it.


Its not a solution, its just proveing that we are not even close to being overcrowded


Living area is one thing, but there are things like buildings for production, recreation, entertainment, etc. that add up and contribute to our growing crowded life on Earth.

However, when it just comes down to living, you make a good point and I don't really see error in it. As a practical solution to anything, however, it's very flawed.

And thanks for clearing up that you didn't intend for it to be as such.
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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:45 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Quotation Marks wrote:I am the child of a rape victim. Yeah, the child of the rapist and my mom. I would have been aborted if my mom would've had access to that.

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life? I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade. I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children. I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

Have I no right to life?

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!


If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles. :D


LG wins for including the words 'vagina' and 'God' in the same response.


It's what I do. 8)
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson

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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:46 pm

WWII History Geeks wrote:
hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice.

Happy now? And by the way, according to this definition in the standard dictionary, a fetus is a human.


That's certainly a better definition than the 'heartbeat and organs' offering - but all you've shown is that a foetus is 'human' (which no one has denied), not that it is 'a human life'.

As I said before - cancers are human tissue - but they aren't people.
WASSER IST LEBEN

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:46 pm

WWII History Geeks wrote:
Surote wrote:
Quotation Marks wrote:Regardless, would it be okay for me to be murdered now if I had not been convicted of a crime? I think we'll all agree no. So would it have been perfectly fine to have killed me then?


You weren't alive you were nothing but a fetus


She (or he) had a heartbeat at 8 weeks. Specialized cells and a shape at 4. At 12, you can tell it's a human. At 20, the nervous system works.I think that constitutes ALIVE.

So it is a living parasite, so what? Or do you think that an unborn child would be able to survive on its own* at 20 weeks?

*by on its own I mean outside the mothers womb, not on life support.
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Artoonia
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Postby Artoonia » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:46 pm

Quotation Marks wrote:
Call to power wrote:well you are statistically more likely to commit violent crime >_>


... :eyebrow: Really? Statistics are just numbers.

Not to a Precog.

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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:46 pm

Hydesland wrote:
North Suran wrote:You seem to imply that you could only be anti-abortion if you refused to recognise fetuses as humans.


I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that for a very long time now, many arguments for abortion have been seriously overrated.

Overrated?

Fair enough.
Neu Mitanni wrote:As for NS, his latest statement is grounded in ignorance and contrary to fact, much to the surprise of all NSGers.


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Hiddenrun
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Founded: Jul 29, 2009
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Postby Hiddenrun » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:46 pm

Muravyets wrote:And alive gives it a right to take over another person's body against their will? First off, alive =/= person, but for the moment, let's pretend it does. If I am not obligated to donate my kidney, or even my blood, even if it is necessary to save your life, why should I be obliged to donate my uterus to somebody else's use, unless I want to?

I love how the pro-abortion crowd acts as though the fetus is some sort of criminal mastermind bent on female domination.
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Araraukar
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:46 pm

CIB EMPIRE wrote:Their is no overcrowding problem, the worlds population could actually fit inside of texas.


Good, let's put all humans into Texas and see how long it takes us as a species to become endangered. I'm game for that. You?
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Araraukar wrote:
Blueflarst wrote:a cosmopolitan hammer
United Massachusetts wrote:Can we all call ourselves "cosmopolitan hammers"?
Us cosmopolitan hammers
Can teach some manners
Often sorely lacking
Hence us attacking
Silly GA spammers

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Grave_n_idle
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Posts: 43029
Founded: Feb 11, 2004
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:47 pm

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Quotation Marks wrote:I am the child of a rape victim. Yeah, the child of the rapist and my mom. I would have been aborted if my mom would've had access to that.

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life? I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade. I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children. I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

Have I no right to life?

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!


If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles. :D


LG wins for including the words 'vagina' and 'God' in the same response.


It's what I do. 8)


You... vagina god?

I do believe that's the first time I've ever seen 'vagina' used as a verb.
WASSER IST LEBEN

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Rhodmhire
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Founded: Jun 05, 2009
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Postby Rhodmhire » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:47 pm

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Rhodmhire wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Quotation Marks wrote:I am the child of a rape victim. Yeah, the child of the rapist and my mom. I would have been aborted if my mom would've had access to that.

Now, for all you people out there who are "pro-women's choice," have I no right to life? I could've died and you'd just assume that my life for my mother's comfort was a more than fair trade. I am very successful today and would like to know why in the United States eagle eggs are better protected than our children. I would like to know how you think it's okay to kill something that has a heartbeat, a hand, a face, and is LIVING and GROWING inside of someone? This is MURDER.

Have I no right to life?

Why is this trade considered so equal? A life and comfort are NOT EQUAL!


If you got aborted, you might have come out someone else's vagina. Maybe somebody better. God recycles. :D


You're one of the reasons I have the courage to get out of bed every day in the morning.


Sure, blame me. :p


It was meant to be a good thing, as I crave your light crazy sense of humor to balance my dark and also crazy sense of humor.

But sure, why not? I'm getting tired of blaming society for everything.

I mean, they deserve it, but I'll mix it up just for you. :p
Part of me grew up here. But part of growing up is leaving parts of ourselves behind.

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WWII History Geeks
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Postby WWII History Geeks » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:47 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
WWII History Geeks wrote:
hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race.
2. Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness.
3. Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty.
4. Having the form of a human.
5. Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice.

Happy now? And by the way, according to this definition in the standard dictionary, a fetus is a human.


That's certainly a better definition than the 'heartbeat and organs' offering - but all you've shown is that a foetus is 'human' (which no one has denied), not that it is 'a human life'.

As I said before - cancers are human tissue - but they aren't people.


What the hell does that have to do with anything? And if I'm so wrong, then what the hell do you think is the definition of "living?"
The goldfish crackers will win. Do you know why they smile? Because when they get inside you they start eating you from the inside out.

Grandtaria: "I would rather live my life each day thinking there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than to live my thinking that there isn't and die to find out there is."
Conservative Morality: "When in Rome, do as the Romans. When out of Rome, do as the Romans anyway, it's not like anyone is ballsy enough to piss off Rome."

Finally fixed: The thread may be gone, but I'm still a "To Hell with This'er!," damnit! :D

Boob sisters with Celestial Divinities!

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Chrobalta
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Postby Chrobalta » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:47 pm

Araraukar wrote:
CIB EMPIRE wrote:Their is no overcrowding problem, the worlds population could actually fit inside of texas.


Good, let's put all humans into Texas and see how long it takes us as a species to become endangered. I'm game for that. You?

Sounds like a helluva reality TV show if you ask me.
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Iceland-Thule
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Postby Iceland-Thule » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:47 pm

Wow. Some of you actually comapare fetuses to parasites and cancer.
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU

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Hiddenrun
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Postby Hiddenrun » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:48 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Viewing life as a valuable and precious thing doesn't mean you won't lose it, just by the way.

There's a difference between dropping napalm on villages of men, women and children... and removing an embryo. I'm a little disturbed if you don't see that.

But let's be honest here. We aren't just talking about embryos. We're talking about developed fetuses too. With recognizably human features. Of course, it always goes back to "embryos" when making the kinds of comparisons you have here. Makes it less heinous I suppose.
Holder of unpopular opinions.

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John Cramer
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Posts: 1
Founded: Oct 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby John Cramer » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:48 pm

In the first trimester of pregnancy, when most abortions take place, the fetus is just a clump of cells, no different than the mother's liver, stomach, eyes, kidneys, or any other organ you would like to think of. This removal of unwanted cells is no different than the removal of a rupturing appendix. You asked the question, "have I no right?" and the answer is, no. Before you are born you are entirely dependent on your mother for life, therefore, you have no rights. As a matter of fact, in the first trimester of your mother's pregnancy, cephalization hadn't even occurred yet, therefore, you didn't even have thoughts to know that you were alive. Do you have the right to live now? Of course, but now you are not entirely dependent on your mother for survival and you have the ability to form thoughts.

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