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Success of Obamacare, and Debunking Myths

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Godular
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Posts: 9065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:42 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Galloism wrote:Or ignorant. You seem to be under this bizarre impression that the people who pass the laws always fully understand what they did.

Nothing could be further from the truth.


I think it not unwise then that we demand every law maker take a written test over all pending legislation before they are allowed to vote on it.


Would likely be easier to make it so that people can't add riders to legislation so that each law doesn't turn into a horrendous mess of addenda.
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- A collective of formerly human bioborgs engaged in a galaxy-spanning reign of terror for as-yet-unknown reasons. (SWG)

Faction 2: The Servants of the True Way of the Will-- A multi-species anti-technology crusade that travels the galaxy in ships brought forth from the power of their own minds. (MWG) (Faction represented in WA)

A 3.1 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie

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Steamtopia
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Posts: 5097
Founded: Jan 13, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Steamtopia » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:42 pm

Galloism wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
I think it not unwise then that we demand every law maker take a written test over all pending legislation before they are allowed to vote on it.

And you thought congress was slow before.

Perhaps if you make it slow enough, it'll loop back around and become productive again.
TG me. Just do it.

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Cote d Argent
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Posts: 81
Founded: Jun 09, 2015
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Postby Cote d Argent » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Steamtopia wrote:
Cote d Argent wrote:Sounds like it would kill jobs and subsidize abortion

Posts with no grammar are aborted, yes.

You favor white people's grammar tho. This is the part where i get outraged about a holocaust of black sentences even though i like states rights in everything except abortion gay marriage and guns

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Dyakovo
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Posts: 83162
Founded: Nov 13, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:46 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Your example has nothing at all to do with the workings of a common law system.

Theoretically no, in terms of practice andgiven its unlikely the average 18 th century colonist didn't make a distinction between theory and practice I would say it is very relevant.

Not "theoretically no". Its simply "no".
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
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Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
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Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

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Yorkvale
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Founded: Jun 07, 2015
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Postby Yorkvale » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:48 pm

Geilinor wrote:
Steamtopia wrote:I don't consider America's definition of "liberalism" (which is some kind of odd authoritarian centre-rightism) valid. I'm talking about liberalism as defined by those who founded it. Economic, political, personal, and social liberalism as a combined ideology. Free trade is part of that. It has been since Adam Smith. Keynes solidified its position in the modern era.

American liberals do/did support free trade. See: Woodrow Wilson, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama


Then there are those that don't, like Warren and Sanders.
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." - the wisest man that ever lived.

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Yorkvale
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Founded: Jun 07, 2015
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Postby Yorkvale » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:49 pm

Steamtopia wrote:
Yorkvale wrote:
Mandate is there to prevent freeloading, and in general Obamacare makes healthcare more affordable when states opt to go along with it. It's good for all business because the Government foots a lot of the bill. We want businesses to be focusing more on their business and paying employees higher wages, and they can do that if we take the strain of having to provide healthcare off of them a little.

Obama is a moderate conservative due to his pragmatic foreign policy, pro free trade, pro cyber security, and his pro low taxes stance. He, unlike many progressive liberals, cares more about the Government helping business than destroying or hampering it.

That's conservative.

Free trade isn't conservative.


By an American-centric definition it is.
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." - the wisest man that ever lived.

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Steamtopia
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Founded: Jan 13, 2015
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Postby Steamtopia » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:50 pm

Yorkvale wrote:
Steamtopia wrote:Free trade isn't conservative.


By an American-centric definition it is.

Fuck American-centric definitions. They're wrong.
TG me. Just do it.

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Llamalandia
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Posts: 10637
Founded: Dec 07, 2011
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:52 pm

Galloism wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
I think it not unwise then that we demand every law maker take a written test over all pending legislation before they are allowed to vote on it.

And you thought congress was slow before.

Quality over quantity. But he'll I'm for small govt anyway. The less that congress does the less chance they have to screw everything up. I personally think we could cut their pay to the poverty line and give me 360 days of vacation every year and be better off as a nation. :lol:

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Llamalandia
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Founded: Dec 07, 2011
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:54 pm

Steamtopia wrote:
Yorkvale wrote:
By an American-centric definition it is.

Fuck American-centric definitions. They're wrong.


Americarules the world thus we get to impose are definitions methinks. Just like the Brits did. If you don't like the. You become the unipolar world super power and make your own definitions.

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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:55 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Galloism wrote:And you thought congress was slow before.

Quality over quantity. But he'll I'm for small govt anyway. The less that congress does the less chance they have to screw everything up. I personally think we could cut their pay to the poverty line and give me 360 days of vacation every year and be better off as a nation. :lol:

That wouldn't really make the government smaller. That would just mean the status quo would never change significantly.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Llamalandia
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Founded: Dec 07, 2011
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:55 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:Theoretically no, in terms of practice andgiven its unlikely the average 18 th century colonist didn't make a distinction between theory and practice I would say it is very relevant.

Not "theoretically no". Its simply "no".


Effectively it yes. How about you learn some history and if you want to actually discuss things post more than 5 words at a time.

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Llamalandia
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Founded: Dec 07, 2011
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:57 pm

Galloism wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:Quality over quantity. But he'll I'm for small govt anyway. The less that congress does the less chance they have to screw everything up. I personally think we could cut their pay to the poverty line and give me 360 days of vacation every year and be better off as a nation. :lol:

That wouldn't really make the government smaller. That would just mean the status quo would never change significantly.


Yeah I've largely given up on shrinking it. I just want to make sure it doesn't get any larger at this point. I mean if the republicans who are supposed to be small govt fiscal Hawks just want to spend and set up counter terror beauracracies. It's ridiculous. Better we do nothing zero growth is about the best I hope for these days.

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Yorkvale
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Founded: Jun 07, 2015
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Postby Yorkvale » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:58 pm

Steamtopia wrote:
Yorkvale wrote:
By an American-centric definition it is.

Fuck American-centric definitions. They're wrong.


It's all relative to people from whatever culture they live in so there really is no such thing as "wrong" when it comes to defining ideology unless I were to say something like free trade is an example of authoritarian economic policy. The only definitive definitions of political ideology are on the less/more freedom axis in political freedom, economic freedom, and civil freedom.

Conservative ideology is pretty much under preserving the status quo, and free trade is a part of our current status quo. Conservatism is relative to the country it is employed in.
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me." Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people." - the wisest man that ever lived.

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Rednekylvania
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Posts: 178
Founded: May 10, 2015
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Postby Rednekylvania » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:06 pm

Galloism wrote:
Steamtopia wrote:If I had to guess, it'd be this.

I don't know what he means by "compel" in this context. If he's asking how can we tax income: the 16th amendment.

If he's asking how can we treat constructively received income as income for tax purposes, that's due to common law principles regarding timing and receipt of income.

I was asking by what authority congress can compel me to make a transaction it can then tax.
Life is never simple, because most people living are.

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Dyakovo
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Posts: 83162
Founded: Nov 13, 2007
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Postby Dyakovo » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Not "theoretically no". Its simply "no".


Effectively it yes.

Wrong.
How about you learn some history

Real history or American libertarian history? I'm already familiar with the former, and the latter is useless.
and if you want to actually discuss things post more than 5 words at a time.

If you want me to post longer responses, don't make it so that I can counter your claims with short answers.
Last edited by Dyakovo on Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

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Godular
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9065
Founded: Sep 09, 2004
New York Times Democracy

Postby Godular » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:10 pm

Rednekylvania wrote:
Galloism wrote:I don't know what he means by "compel" in this context. If he's asking how can we tax income: the 16th amendment.

If he's asking how can we treat constructively received income as income for tax purposes, that's due to common law principles regarding timing and receipt of income.

I was asking by what authority congress can compel me to make a transaction it can then tax.


The U.S. constitution.
Last edited by Godular on Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RL position
Active RP: ASCENSION
Active RP: SHENRYAX

Faction 1: The An'Kazar Control Framework of Godular-- A collective of formerly human bioborgs engaged in a galaxy-spanning reign of terror for as-yet-unknown reasons. (SWG)

Faction 2: The Servants of the True Way of the Will-- A multi-species anti-technology crusade that travels the galaxy in ships brought forth from the power of their own minds. (MWG) (Faction represented in WA)

A 3.1 civilization, according to this Nation Index Thingie

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Rednekylvania
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Posts: 178
Founded: May 10, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Rednekylvania » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:14 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Galloism wrote:

Well good luck with that. Both parties are lead by progressives who just differ in opinion on the quality of the bureaucracy that must micromanage us, but agree on quantity.
Life is never simple, because most people living are.

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56673
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:15 pm

Rednekylvania wrote:
Galloism wrote:I don't know what he means by "compel" in this context. If he's asking how can we tax income: the 16th amendment.

If he's asking how can we treat constructively received income as income for tax purposes, that's due to common law principles regarding timing and receipt of income.

I was asking by what authority congress can compel me to make a transaction it can then tax.

It doesn't. If you're talking about the disbursement, state laws regarding proper payments of income rule, which forces the first (disbursing) transaction. Employers aren't allowed to just keep money that is rightfully yours. This is a good thing.

There's a penalty if you don't then roll it over to another account, so Congress, in effect, forces a transaction and if you fail to engage in that transaction, you are taxed.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Llamalandia
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Founded: Dec 07, 2011
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Postby Llamalandia » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:23 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
Effectively it yes.

Wrong.
How about you learn some history

Real history or American libertarian history? I'm already familiar with the former, and the latter is useless.
and if you want to actually discuss things post more than 5 words at a time.

If you want me to post longer responses, don't make it so that I can counter your claims with short answers.

You can't counter claims with response such as "wrong." That isn't a counter argument. At best if one assumes you are correct, it is a statement of fact, with zero explanation accompanying it. You can't actually make a legitimate counter argument with just one word.

They aren't actually all that different. The revolution was a fight for rights and liberties after all. The parliament in England was using the law to deny colonists their equal rights as British subjects, if you don't know this you don't really know history as well as you think you do.

That said, I'm largely done with you. I'll still read whatever you post but I'm done with people who are deliberately obtuse and rude to others.
Good day sir.

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Rednekylvania
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Posts: 178
Founded: May 10, 2015
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Postby Rednekylvania » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:32 pm

Galloism wrote:
Rednekylvania wrote:I was asking by what authority congress can compel me to make a transaction it can then tax.

It doesn't.

Thanks, I figured the argument over the tax was moot since the mandate isn't legal.
Life is never simple, because most people living are.

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Dyakovo
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 83162
Founded: Nov 13, 2007
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Postby Dyakovo » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:33 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Wrong.

Real history or American libertarian history? I'm already familiar with the former, and the latter is useless.

If you want me to post longer responses, don't make it so that I can counter your claims with short answers.

You can't counter claims with response such as "wrong." That isn't a counter argument. At best if one assumes you are correct, it is a statement of fact, with zero explanation accompanying it. You can't actually make a legitimate counter argument with just one word.

My having done so proves your assertion incorrect.

They aren't actually all that different. The revolution was a fight for rights and liberties after all. The parliament in England was using the law to deny colonists their equal rights as British subjects, if you don't know this you don't really know history as well as you think you do.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with how a common law legal system works.

That said, I'm largely done with you. I'll still read whatever you post but I'm done with people who are deliberately obtuse and rude to others.
Good day sir.

Congratulations?
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

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Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56673
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:35 pm

Rednekylvania wrote:
Galloism wrote:It doesn't.

Thanks, I figured the argument over the tax was moot since the mandate isn't legal.

Except the mandate doesn't mandate a transaction which then it can tax.

In fact, it mandates a transaction which, if you fail to do so, results in you being taxed for failure to do so (unless you have another exception, of which there are many).

Just like the second transaction (the rollover). If you fail to engage in the given transaction with some custodian, then you are on the receiving end of extra tax.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Dyakovo
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 83162
Founded: Nov 13, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:35 pm

Rednekylvania wrote:
Galloism wrote:It doesn't.

Thanks, I figured the argument over the tax was moot since the mandate isn't legal.

The mandate is legal.
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

User avatar
Galloism
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56673
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:49 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Rednekylvania wrote:Thanks, I figured the argument over the tax was moot since the mandate isn't legal.

The mandate is legal.

Oh yeah? Just because the highest court in the land agrees it's legal, doesn't mean it's really legal! It's a conspiracy!

Rand Paul 2016!
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Rednekylvania
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 178
Founded: May 10, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Rednekylvania » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:07 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Rednekylvania wrote:Thanks, I figured the argument over the tax was moot since the mandate isn't legal.

The mandate is legal.

I don't dispute this. What I do dispute is it's legitamacy. After all, legal interpretation isn't any more scientfic than reading tea leaves, and much more politically motivated. There are technocrats here who want to treat it as a settled issue, and I've been fishing for an intelligable reasoning as to why one cannot challenge the issue.
Life is never simple, because most people living are.

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