1) Fetuses are not born so your comparison is shit.
2) Killing a baby would be murder since it is born.
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by Galloism » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:40 am
by Dyakovo » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:11 am
Grenartia wrote:Dyakovo wrote:Rights are something a person has... A foetus is not a person.
A fetus can legally be considered a victim of a crime in over 30 states. So if it can be a victim of murder, then why do we still not consider it a person? Because a long ass fucking time ago (the better part of a century, I believe) some people wanted to have the ability to murder their own child/children, get off scott-free, and still be able to sleep at night.
by Grenartia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:46 am
Wiztopia wrote:Grenartia wrote:
Yeah, you certainly do make a good argument. All human beings who are underdeveloped have no right to live, so I'm going to go kill a couple of new borns right now!! Thanks, Wiztopia, my life has meaning now, thanks to you!!!!
1) Fetuses are not born so your comparison is shit.
2) Killing a baby would be murder since it is born.
by Norstal » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:48 am
Toronto Sun wrote:Best poster ever. ★★★★★
New York Times wrote:No one can beat him in debates. 5/5.
IGN wrote:Literally the best game I've ever played. 10/10
NSG Public wrote:What a fucking douchebag.
by Grenartia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:48 am
Dyakovo wrote:Grenartia wrote:
A fetus can legally be considered a victim of a crime in over 30 states. So if it can be a victim of murder, then why do we still not consider it a person? Because a long ass fucking time ago (the better part of a century, I believe) some people wanted to have the ability to murder their own child/children, get off scott-free, and still be able to sleep at night.
Because it does not meet any of the qualifications of personhood.
by Dyakovo » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:55 am
by The Anti-Cosmic Gods » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:05 am
by Grenartia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:11 am
by Wiztopia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:16 am
Galloism wrote:Wiztopia wrote:
Logic and common sense says otherwise.
The law is pretty much the ultimate authority on what is and isn't a crime. If you wanted to know what the difference is between sexual assault and rape, for instance, looking at what the law defines each as would be a stupendous place to start.
A fetus, currently, can be murdered. This is a fact not up for debate. No matter how much your logic (which you never explained or justified, other than "it's not born, hurr durr") changes that fact.
The only way that fact can change is if you get the law changed.
by Bitchkitten » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:18 am
by Galloism » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:36 am
by Galloism » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:11 am
by Wiztopia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:16 am
Galloism wrote:Wiztopia wrote:
I would have to disagree with that. Since its a dog it can't be a person.
I was responding to Dyakovo's criteria, nothing more.
Let's face it, determining personhood at birth is intellectually lazy. Let's compare all the criteria I can think of between a 7 month old fetus, a newborn, and a border collie.
Brain activity, yes to all three.
Sapient, no to all three.
Self-aware, no to the fetus and the newborn, possibly yes or no to the border collie (more study required)
Human: yes to the newborn and the fetus, no to the border collie.
Able to survive apart from it's mother: yes to all three
Self-sufficient: no to all three, although the border collie possibly could
Potential to become a self-sufficient contributing member of society: yes to newborn and fetus, no to the border collie
Breathing: yes to the newborn and the border collie, no to the fetus
If you've got more criteria, I'm all ears.
by Galloism » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:36 am
Wiztopia wrote:Galloism wrote:I was responding to Dyakovo's criteria, nothing more.
Let's face it, determining personhood at birth is intellectually lazy. Let's compare all the criteria I can think of between a 7 month old fetus, a newborn, and a border collie.
Brain activity, yes to all three.
Sapient, no to all three.
Self-aware, no to the fetus and the newborn, possibly yes or no to the border collie (more study required)
Human: yes to the newborn and the fetus, no to the border collie.
Able to survive apart from it's mother: yes to all three
Self-sufficient: no to all three, although the border collie possibly could
Potential to become a self-sufficient contributing member of society: yes to newborn and fetus, no to the border collie
Breathing: yes to the newborn and the border collie, no to the fetus
If you've got more criteria, I'm all ears.
A fetus cannot survive apart from its mother. Potential doesn't matter. That's like the arguments where people call the fetus a baby.
by Nulono » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:46 am
Seltwar wrote:Unrestricted pro-choice.
Is an egg a chicken? No, its a egg.
Is a grain of sand a beach? No, it's just a grain.
Is a cell a tissue? No, its a cell not a tissue.
Is a foundation a building? No, its a foundation.
IE A fetus is not a person, its a fetus. IT has no heartbeat does not react to the outside environment it does not defend itself. Rocks share similar processes.
A fetus has more in common with a rock than a chicken. Sure they share the same elemental and chemical compounds, but thats it. An aluminum foil shares the same main material as a plane. Does that mean all aluminum foil's are planes? No.
Egg is not a chicken.
Fetus is not a person.
Rhodmhire wrote:To be honest, the whole "mother's rights > fetus's rights" thing is the keystone of this whole debate. It almost really wouldn't matter if the fetus was a person, I think. If it is, then it's a person who is totally dependent upon the mother until it is born. It cannot survive on its own without her nourishment. It does not provide anything of benefit to her directly (biologically speaking) except that it carries on her genetic material and continues the survival of the species in general. I don't see why its "rights" would overrule the mother's if it was unwanted.
Sure, it's probably going to end up being the pride and joy of her life, no shit about that. But that's emotion, that's family, not science.
The Nuclear Fist wrote:If all it it takes to count as a five star hotel in America is having air conditioning and not letting those who reside in it die of hyperthermia, you have shitty hotels.
Republika Jugoslavija wrote:Actually nuclear war is not the world ending scenario that many would have folks believe.
by Galloism » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:52 am
Nulono wrote:Since when is your right to lived determined by your contributions to society?
by Grenartia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:03 pm
The Anti-Cosmic Gods wrote:Who cares if the fetus is a person or not? It is inhabiting the body of another person, and that person's right to bodily autonomy supersedes whatever "rights" moralists want to attach to a clump of cells.
Wiki article on consciousness wrote:With the Mirror test, devised by Gordon Gallup in the 1970s, one is interested in whether animals are able to recognize themselves in a mirror. The classic example of the test involves placing a spot of coloring on the skin or fur near the individual's forehead and seeing if they attempt to remove it or at least touch the spot, thus indicating that they recognize that the individual they are seeing in the mirror is themselves. Humans (older than 18 months) and other great apes, bottlenose dolphins, pigeons, elephants[38] and magpies[39] have all been observed to pass this test. The test is usually carried out with an identical 'spot' being placed elsewhere on the head with a non-visible material as a control, to assure the subject is not responding to the touch stimuli of the spot's presence.
Wiki article on the Mirror test wrote:Dogs, cats, and young human babies tend to initially fail the mirror test.[3][4] Humans tend to fail the mirror test until they are about 18 months old, or what psychoanalysts call the "mirror stage".[19]
Wiki article on self-concept wrote:One study, focusing on the developmental perspective, aimed to discover girls’ and boys’ preferences for socialization. Thirty-three-month-old children were assigned to play in pairs. Some pairs were same-sex, others were mixed. Researchers measured both positive and negative social behaviors during play. Both boys and girls had higher levels of social behavior when playing with the same sex than with the opposite sex. In addition, in the mixed-sex pairs, girls were more likely to passively watch a male partner play than vice versa. Boys were more likely to be unresponsive to what their female partners were saying than vice versa.[21]
by Nulono » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:14 pm
Galloism wrote:Nulono wrote:Since when is your right to lived determined by your contributions to society?
Since when does a right to live trump another person's bodily integrity?
I need a kidney. You're a match. By the way, the government is going to make you give me one of yours, or you go to prison.
Sound good?
The Nuclear Fist wrote:If all it it takes to count as a five star hotel in America is having air conditioning and not letting those who reside in it die of hyperthermia, you have shitty hotels.
Republika Jugoslavija wrote:Actually nuclear war is not the world ending scenario that many would have folks believe.
by Nulono » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:19 pm
The Nuclear Fist wrote:If all it it takes to count as a five star hotel in America is having air conditioning and not letting those who reside in it die of hyperthermia, you have shitty hotels.
Republika Jugoslavija wrote:Actually nuclear war is not the world ending scenario that many would have folks believe.
by Galloism » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:26 pm
by Grenartia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:26 pm
by Wiztopia » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:29 pm
Grenartia wrote:Wiztopia wrote:
You do realize that if its born it isn't a fetus anymore right?
You do realize that a 3rd trimester fetus can be premature. In fact, IIRC from all the wiki visits I've been doing on this topic, a really late 2nd trimester fetus (5 months) can survive outside the womb, albeit very unlikely.
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