[R] Flame in Transgender Discussion Thread

[Lauderdalle]

Sedge I do have to ask, what are these previous offenses?

[United Calanworie]

As part of our review, I've done a much deeper dive into Hermes Express 123's background, which has uncovered a handful of older RMB posts on puppets that included a transphobic slur, and expressing a desire to "one day ostracizing the gender dysphoric". This obviously paints their behaviour reported in this thread in a much less generous light, and as such I'm reversing my earlier ruling and *** warning Hermes Express 123 for trolling. ***

I note that this doesn't change the Moderation principles expressed in this thread - that we prohibit behaviours not opinions; in theory it remains possible to express a viewpoint that translates to "gender dysphoria is a mental illness" in a rules compliant fashion; I can't say whether that has been successfully done so in the past, as I don't routinely frequent NSG (or the many RMBs these discussions happen on). Obviously, as stated from the start, most people expressing that view are doing so with an intention to troll, and are punished accordingly. The warnings for spamming Moderation handed out above stand as well.

As a general rule, we dislike locking threads except for when necessary. I am therefore reopening this one, but only for questions and comments from Juristonia (the reporting party), Hermes Express 123 (the reported party), and obviously any Moderators as well. No other players should post here.

Can I ask which puppet of mine that quote came from?

Is that a direct quote? I don’t recall writing that.

It's been sent to you via Voice of Mod.

[United Calanworie]

Sedge I do have to ask, what are these previous offenses?

Since you literally not more than three posts ago received an official warning for spamming moderation, the message clearly didn't sink in. *** 1 day ban for spamming moderation. ***

[Hermes Express 123]

Can I ask which puppet of mine that quote came from?

Is that a direct quote? I don’t recall writing that.

It's been sent to you via Voice of Mod.

1. I can’t see the posts
2. If I recall my time with that account, I posted a ton of questionable stuff to get the account DEATed. Not using it as a defence, but I feel it should be noted.
3. Given the age of those posts, I’d like to request an appeal/second opinion. I believe this deacon has been influenced by the personal feelings of Moderators and the community, and that this decision was reached more to appease the community then anything.

[HARAMUN]

According to the Bible the LGBTQ are Sinners and being LGBTQ is a sin that needs to be repented of. The Bible clearly teaches it is a sin in accordance with scripture -Deuteronomy 22:5, Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 18:22, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Romans 1:26-32, Mark 10:6-9, Jude 1:7,
1 Corinthians 7:2, 1 Timothy 1:9-11, Genesis 19:1-38, and also Revelation 22:15 (he that hath ears to hear will understand this verse)- and that those which practice the LGBTQ lifestyle will not go to Heaven. It is not trolling to state these facts, it is merely pointing out my beliefs.

[United Calanworie]

According to the Bible the LGBTQ are Sinners and being LGBTQ is a sin that needs to be repented of. The Bible clearly teaches it is a sin in accordance with scripture -Deuteronomy 22:5, Leviticus 20:13, Leviticus 18:22, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Romans 1:26-32, Mark 10:6-9, Jude 1:7,
1 Corinthians 7:2, 1 Timothy 1:9-11, Genesis 19:1-38, and also Revelation 22:15 (he that hath ears to hear will understand this verse)- and that those which practice the LGBTQ lifestyle will not go to Heaven. It is not trolling to state these facts, it is merely pointing out my beliefs.

And considering the redtext riiiiiiighhhht above you, and on the previous page that you would have needed to read past at some point to come to this conclusion and post it here, *** warned for spamming moderation. ***

[Hermes Express 123]

Moderation, I’d like to appeal my warning.

[Katganistan]

Moderation, I’d like to appeal my warning.

And you know the proper procedure for that.

[Hermes Express 123]

Was I warned for the recent post, or for those two old posts, and how much influence did those old posts play in the Moderation ruling?

[Katganistan]

Appeals process.

[Hermes Express 123]

I just sent my appeal via the Getting Help, before I saw this. If you can send it back to me (I didn't copy it sorry), I'll repost it here.

[Karamuru]

It's not flaming. He's calling Hermes Express 123 a "rando[n] transphobe", which is not a flame, and the "asshole" when read with the context of the first sentence is stating Hermes Express 123 is talking out of their ass / pulled their evidence out of their ass. Rude, but not flaming. The key bit is he's not calling Hermes Express 123 an asshole.

So rudeness is allowed.

[Sedgistan]

It's not flaming. He's calling Hermes Express 123 a "rando[n] transphobe", which is not a flame, and the "asshole" when read with the context of the first sentence is stating Hermes Express 123 is talking out of their ass / pulled their evidence out of their ass. Rude, but not flaming. The key bit is he's not calling Hermes Express 123 an asshole.

So rudeness is allowed.

*** Warned for spamming in Moderation ***

Hermes Express 123's request for a first appeal has been noted and will be handled by an uninvolved Moderator (i.e. anyone aside from myself).

[The Archregimancy]

Moderation, I’d like to appeal my warning.

Appeal Denied

1) We do not have an outright ban on discussions of psychology and gender dysphoria; there are a variety of viewpoints on this issue in mainstream political debate in different countries.

2) However, care should be taken in how the discussion of this complex topic is undertaken.

3) Going into a Trans Discussion Thread which has a significant number of Trans participants and typing 'all Trans people are mentally ill' is inflammatory.

4) In contrast, starting a new thread on "Gender Dysphoria and Psychology" and offering the opinion that 'gender dysphoria is a largely psychological issue, and we should be offering counselling to people who identify as a different gender rather than facilitating self-identification' shows how the issue might potentially be addressed without slipping into trolling. It's an opinion that many posters will no doubt disagree with, but it attempts to present an alternative perspective constructively (this is not an absolute pre-emptive ruling; context will always need to be considered).

5) In terms of starting new threads for this type of discussion outside of an established megathread, we would direct everyone to the stickied announcement at the top of General titled "Megathread Policy Change in General Discussion".

6) Following on from point 5 and the stickied policy change announcement, since the Trans Discussion Thread, Christian Discussion Thread, and a couple of others are taking longer to reach 500 pages than anticipated, we may choose to remove the numbering from thread titles ourselves in some cases; this may take us a few days to complete.

[Hermes Express 123]

Moderation, I’d like to appeal my warning.

Appeal Denied

1) We do not have an outright ban on discussions of psychology and gender dysphoria; there are a variety of viewpoints on this issue in mainstream political debate in different countries.

2) However, care should be taken in how the discussion of this complex topic is undertaken.

3) Going into a Trans Discussion Thread which has a significant number of Trans participants and typing 'all Trans people are mentally ill' is inflammatory.

4) In contrast, starting a new thread on "Gender Dysphoria and Psychology" and offering the opinion that 'gender dysphoria is a largely psychological issue, and we should be offering counselling to people who identify as a different gender rather than facilitating self-identification' shows how the issue might potentially be addressed without slipping into trolling. It's an opinion that many posters will no doubt disagree with, but it attempts to present an alternative perspective constructively (this is not an absolute pre-emptive ruling; context will always need to be considered).

5) In terms of starting new threads for this type of discussion outside of an established megathread, we would direct everyone to the stickied announcement at the top of General titled "Megathread Policy Change in General Discussion".

6) Following on from point 5 and the stickied policy change announcement, since the Trans Discussion Thread, Christian Discussion Thread, and a couple of others are taking longer to reach 500 pages than anticipated, we may choose to remove the numbering from thread titles ourselves in some cases; this may take us a few days to complete.

Disagree with the ruling. Appreciate the detailed response though. Cheers mate.

[Hermes Express 123]

Moderation, I’d like to appeal my warning.

Appeal Denied

1) We do not have an outright ban on discussions of psychology and gender dysphoria; there are a variety of viewpoints on this issue in mainstream political debate in different countries.

2) However, care should be taken in how the discussion of this complex topic is undertaken.

3) Going into a Trans Discussion Thread which has a significant number of Trans participants and typing 'all Trans people are mentally ill' is inflammatory.

4) In contrast, starting a new thread on "Gender Dysphoria and Psychology" and offering the opinion that 'gender dysphoria is a largely psychological issue, and we should be offering counselling to people who identify as a different gender rather than facilitating self-identification' shows how the issue might potentially be addressed without slipping into trolling. It's an opinion that many posters will no doubt disagree with, but it attempts to present an alternative perspective constructively (this is not an absolute pre-emptive ruling; context will always need to be considered).

5) In terms of starting new threads for this type of discussion outside of an established megathread, we would direct everyone to the stickied announcement at the top of General titled "Megathread Policy Change in General Discussion".

6) Following on from point 5 and the stickied policy change announcement, since the Trans Discussion Thread, Christian Discussion Thread, and a couple of others are taking longer to reach 500 pages than anticipated, we may choose to remove the numbering from thread titles ourselves in some cases; this may take us a few days to complete.

Right, got some opinions on the matter from other players.

I've decided that I'd like to file a Final Appeal. I'm of the mind that this is a pretty serious injustice, and so I feel it needs to be brought to a higher level.

[The Blaatschapen]

Appeal Denied

1) We do not have an outright ban on discussions of psychology and gender dysphoria; there are a variety of viewpoints on this issue in mainstream political debate in different countries.

2) However, care should be taken in how the discussion of this complex topic is undertaken.

3) Going into a Trans Discussion Thread which has a significant number of Trans participants and typing 'all Trans people are mentally ill' is inflammatory.

4) In contrast, starting a new thread on "Gender Dysphoria and Psychology" and offering the opinion that 'gender dysphoria is a largely psychological issue, and we should be offering counselling to people who identify as a different gender rather than facilitating self-identification' shows how the issue might potentially be addressed without slipping into trolling. It's an opinion that many posters will no doubt disagree with, but it attempts to present an alternative perspective constructively (this is not an absolute pre-emptive ruling; context will always need to be considered).

5) In terms of starting new threads for this type of discussion outside of an established megathread, we would direct everyone to the stickied announcement at the top of General titled "Megathread Policy Change in General Discussion".

6) Following on from point 5 and the stickied policy change announcement, since the Trans Discussion Thread, Christian Discussion Thread, and a couple of others are taking longer to reach 500 pages than anticipated, we may choose to remove the numbering from thread titles ourselves in some cases; this may take us a few days to complete.

Right, got some opinions on the matter from other players.

I've decided that I'd like to file a Final Appeal. I'm of the mind that this is a pretty serious injustice, and so I feel it needs to be brought to a higher level.

From viewtopic.php?p=16394954#appeals subsection Final Appeals:

Final Appeals

Final Appeals are time-consuming, and you should lodge one only when you believe a significant injustice has occurred--not for minor forum warnings and short-term forumbans (which would be over before a Final Appeal could conclude). Frivolous appeals may result in warnings being added to your nation.

Are you sure you want to go there?

[Hermes Express 123]

Right, got some opinions on the matter from other players.

I've decided that I'd like to file a Final Appeal. I'm of the mind that this is a pretty serious injustice, and so I feel it needs to be brought to a higher level.

From viewtopic.php?p=16394954#appeals subsection Final Appeals:

Final Appeals

Final Appeals are time-consuming, and you should lodge one only when you believe a significant injustice has occurred--not for minor forum warnings and short-term forumbans (which would be over before a Final Appeal could conclude). Frivolous appeals may result in warnings being added to your nation.

Are you sure you want to go there?

100%. This is not frivolous. This is a genuine injustice; Moderation has allowed public outrage and it's own bias to influence it's judgement. I feel a Final Appeal is needed.

[United Calanworie]

For the sake of transparency (hah, get it?) I have just split off a post from a DOS player to the evidence locker.

[New Visayan Islands]

Appeal Denied

1) We do not have an outright ban on discussions of psychology and gender dysphoria; there are a variety of viewpoints on this issue in mainstream political debate in different countries.

2) However, care should be taken in how the discussion of this complex topic is undertaken.

3) Going into a Trans Discussion Thread which has a significant number of Trans participants and typing 'all Trans people are mentally ill' is inflammatory.

4) In contrast, starting a new thread on "Gender Dysphoria and Psychology" and offering the opinion that 'gender dysphoria is a largely psychological issue, and we should be offering counselling to people who identify as a different gender rather than facilitating self-identification' shows how the issue might potentially be addressed without slipping into trolling. It's an opinion that many posters will no doubt disagree with, but it attempts to present an alternative perspective constructively (this is not an absolute pre-emptive ruling; context will always need to be considered).

5) In terms of starting new threads for this type of discussion outside of an established megathread, we would direct everyone to the stickied announcement at the top of General titled "Megathread Policy Change in General Discussion".

6) Following on from point 5 and the stickied policy change announcement, since the Trans Discussion Thread, Christian Discussion Thread, and a couple of others are taking longer to reach 500 pages than anticipated, we may choose to remove the numbering from thread titles ourselves in some cases; this may take us a few days to complete.

Right, got some opinions on the matter from other players.

I've decided that I'd like to file a Final Appeal. I'm of the mind that this is a pretty serious injustice, and so I feel it needs to be brought to a higher level.

Your Final Appeal has been considered by a panel of at least three Moderators (including one Senior Game Moderator) uninvolved in the original decision and First Appeal. Your Final Appeal has been denied.

There is no further recourse should you continue to disagree with the decision, and you should move on and accept the outcome. Further attempts to argue the decision may result in warnings for spamming being added to your nation.

New Visayan Islands
Game Moderator