Birth or not

[Nulono]

Says who?

being a person

A person is most broadly defined as any individual self-conscious or rational being, or any entity having rights and duties; or often more narrowly defined as an individual human being in particular.

Your excuse was "No, because at that point the child is legally a person.". Is legal personhood relevant or not?

Yes, legal personhood is relevant. Acknowledging legal personhood as relevant is not, however, the same thing as saying that it is the only thing that is relevant. So you can quit building straw men.

Apparently it's not relevant, because you disregard it whenever you don't agree with it.

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

At some point a fetus is still a child. I believe that you get 1 choice in whether or not to have a baby, which is when you decide to have sex. Killing off things that will be children on a whim is immoral in my opinion.

Fetuses are not "things that will be children"; they are children.

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

Lies.

http://joseromia.tripod.com/survivors.html

An abortion is, by definition, the termination of a pregnancy after, resulting in, accompanied by, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus. Anyone who is alive, by definition, was not aborted.

Right, 'cause it's totally the fetus's fault. Fetuses just walk around in the astral plane, rubbing their hands maniacally and looking for a woman to kill.

Building straw men is your favorite pastime isn't it?

It's not necessary when your opponents are already made of straw.

[Dyakovo]

At some point a fetus is still a child.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

[Arilando]

Even if it cannot feel pain?

If I killed you painlessly, would that be okay? What if I killed someone with congenital insensitivity to pain?

It would not be okay if i said i did not want to be killed

1. he said it should only be allowed in special circumstances, i believe it should allways be allowed
2. The infant can be adopted, a fetus cannot

2. The infant can't be adopted until you find an adoptive family. The fetus can't be adopted until birth. What does being able to be adopted have to do with the right to not be killed?

A fetus is a burden on the mother, a adopted infant is not

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

Please explain furher.

[Umbagar]

there are several reasons why forcing a woman to have a rapist's child is wrong:
1. it can cause emotional damage if you know that the genetics of the man who harmed you is inside you.
2. Even if the baby is born and the woman has to look after it she will probably abuse it if it is not wanted.

1. It's not okay to kill someone just because you don't like their genes.
2. Then put the baby for adoption. It's not okay to kill someone because you don't think you'd be a good parent.

If someone comes down the street grabs you, violates you, and hurts you that causes permanent and scarring emotional damage.then imagine living in a state of perpetual self loathing at the fetus in your stomach for 9 months, plus lost work and wages that could bankrupt a poor person. That is enough to drive someone insane and ruin their life.

[Wesibaden]

I'm leaning towards it being a hoax. There's no reason for them to get a 3D ultrasound or go into so much detail over the development of a child they may abort. The language they use is clearly acknowledging "Wiggles" as a member of the family.

I voted for birth just to be safe, though.

Also, the 4chan raid was inevitable.

4chan are a bunch of nerds.................... But anyways i won't vote because its up to them to decide not strangers.


And enough with abortions it is the mothers choice so everyone needs to back off.......

[Nulono]

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

Really? everyone who has had an abortion has died? The statistics on people who have had multiple abortions must be made up then...

I didn't say the mother always dies. Someone always dies, though.

At some point a fetus is still a child.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

There are multiple definitions of "child". There is "a human being between birth and puberty", as in "Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children.", and there's "a son or daughter, an offspring", as in "My children are 35 and 23 years old.".

[Umbagar]

At some point a fetus is still a child.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

It's a child the same way an egg is a chicken. There's a reason vegetarians only eat non-fertilized eggs.

[Fartsniffage]

Fetuses are not "things that will be children"; they are children.

To go by your oh-so-stringent devotion to definitions of words, a child is defined a a human between the stages of birth and puberty.

Wouldn't want to be a hypocrit would you?

[Arilando]

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

At some point a fetus is still a child. I believe that you get 1 choice in whether or not to have a baby, which is when you decide to have sex. Killing off things that will be children on a whim is immoral in my opinion.

So a man can have sex without any consequences, but a women have to give birth (a wery painfull event) to a baby?

[Dyakovo]

Yes, legal personhood is relevant. Acknowledging legal personhood as relevant is not, however, the same thing as saying that it is the only thing that is relevant. So you can quit building straw men.

Apparently it's not relevant, because you disregard it whenever you don't agree with it.

Uh-huh. Care to show me where I have disregarded legal personhood?

Building straw men is your favorite pastime isn't it?

It's not necessary when your opponents are already made of straw.

Maybe you should try debating with actual people then, rather than carictatures of your opponents that you have built in your head. Honestly, the real world isn't that scary a place.

[Wesibaden]

Ok that is i have had it with 4chan Someone should really delete that stupid site...........

[Umbagar]

At some point a fetus is still a child. I believe that you get 1 choice in whether or not to have a baby, which is when you decide to have sex. Killing off things that will be children on a whim is immoral in my opinion.

So a man can have sex without any consequences, but a women have to give birth (a wery painfull event) to a baby?

Child support.

[Dyakovo]

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

There are multiple definitions of "child". There is "a human being between birth and puberty", as in "Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children.", and there's "a son or daughter, an offspring", as in "My children are 35 and 23 years old.".

And none of them describe a fetus.

[Arilando]

So a man can have sex without any consequences, but a women have to give birth (a wery painfull event) to a baby?

Child support.

Why are you against having sex for fun? And how is it justified that someone should pay child support if they do not themselves decide what happens to the child support?

[Umbagar]

Child support.

Why are you against having sex for fun? And how is it justified that someone should pay child support if they do not themselves decide what happens to the child support?

Can you point out when I said I'm against having sex for fun? Have you heard of condoms? Very useful objects are they. Child support goes to the woman that they made pregnant to support her and the child.

[Staenwald]

There's been another thing like this on recently. Heard about the russian artist who has strapped himself into an electric chair- and people online get to click and zap him. it's supposed to be a test to portray if free will really comes with any internal moral limits. He's not die...but has been zapped afew times, so obviously some people are lacking. Looks like we still need government...even if I do think a libertarian would be better.

[Fartsniffage]

There's been another thing like this on recently. Heard about the russian artist who has strapped himself into an electric chair- and people online get to click and zap him. it's supposed to be a test to portray if free will really comes with any internal moral limits. He's not die...but has been zapped afew times, so obviously some people are lacking. Looks like we still need government...even if I do think a libertarian would be better.

Got a link?

[Dyakovo]

There's been another thing like this on recently. Heard about the russian artist who has strapped himself into an electric chair- and people online get to click and zap him. it's supposed to be a test to portray if free will really comes with any internal moral limits. He's not die...but has been zapped afew times, so obviously some people are lacking. Looks like we still need government...even if I do think a libertarian would be better.

Got a link?

You want to zap him, don't you?

[Nulono]

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

It's a child the same way an egg is a chicken. There's a reason vegetarians only eat non-fertilized eggs.

There's a chicken inside the egg.

1. It's not okay to kill someone just because you don't like their genes.
2. Then put the baby for adoption. It's not okay to kill someone because you don't think you'd be a good parent.

If someone comes down the street grabs you, violates you, and hurts you that causes permanent and scarring emotional damage.then imagine living in a state of perpetual self loathing at the fetus in your stomach for 9 months, plus lost work and wages that could bankrupt a poor person. That is enough to drive someone insane and ruin their life.

And that totally justifies killing an innocent third party.

At some point a fetus is still a child.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

The word "child" has multiple definitions, among them "a human being between birth and puberty" ("Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children") and "a son or daughter, and offspring" ("All of my children are now married with children of their own.").

If I killed you painlessly, would that be okay? What if I killed someone with congenital insensitivity to pain?

It would not be okay if i said i did not want to be killed


2. The infant can't be adopted until you find an adoptive family. The fetus can't be adopted until birth. What does being able to be adopted have to do with the right to not be killed?

A fetus is a burden on the mother, a adopted infant is not

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

Please explain furher.

1. What if I killed you before you could say that? What if you didn't see it coming? What if you were asleep or in a coma?
2. Adoption does not happen instantaneously. Until they can find an adoptive family, the infant is a burden.
3. Since when does being a burden mean you have no right to live?

I'm leaning towards it being a hoax. There's no reason for them to get a 3D ultrasound or go into so much detail over the development of a child they may abort. The language they use is clearly acknowledging "Wiggles" as a member of the family.

I voted for birth just to be safe, though.

Also, the 4chan raid was inevitable.

4chan are a bunch of nerds.................... But anyways i won't vote because its up to them to decide not strangers.


And enough with abortions it is the mothers choice so everyone needs to back off.......

No one has the right to choose to kill another human being.

Apparently it's not relevant, because you disregard it whenever you don't agree with it.

Uh-huh. Care to show me where I have disregarded legal personhood?

Are you saying you DO think it was right to kill Native Americans or any other group when they weren't legally persons?

It's not necessary when your opponents are already made of straw.

Maybe you should try debating with actual people then, rather than carictatures of your opponents that you have built in your head. Honestly, the real world isn't that scary a place.

Maybe you should try presenting better arguments.

1. It's not okay to kill someone just because you don't like their genes.
2. Then put the baby for adoption. It's not okay to kill someone because you don't think you'd be a good parent.

If someone comes down the street grabs you, violates you, and hurts you that causes permanent and scarring emotional damage.then imagine living in a state of perpetual self loathing at the fetus in your stomach for 9 months, plus lost work and wages that could bankrupt a poor person. That is enough to drive someone insane and ruin their life.

And that totally justifies killing an innocent third party.

At some point a fetus is still a child.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

The word "child" has multiple definitions, among them "a human being between birth and puberty" ("Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children") and "a son or daughter, and offspring" ("All of my children are now married with children of their own.").

If I killed you painlessly, would that be okay? What if I killed someone with congenital insensitivity to pain?

It would not be okay if i said i did not want to be killed


2. The infant can't be adopted until you find an adoptive family. The fetus can't be adopted until birth. What does being able to be adopted have to do with the right to not be killed?

A fetus is a burden on the mother, a adopted infant is not

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

Please explain furher.

1. What if I killed you before you could say that? What if you didn't see it coming? What if you were asleep or in a coma?
2. Adoption does not happen instantaneously. Until they can find an adoptive family, the infant is a burden.
3. Since when does being a burden mean you have no right to live?

I'm leaning towards it being a hoax. There's no reason for them to get a 3D ultrasound or go into so much detail over the development of a child they may abort. The language they use is clearly acknowledging "Wiggles" as a member of the family.

I voted for birth just to be safe, though.

Also, the 4chan raid was inevitable.

4chan are a bunch of nerds.................... But anyways i won't vote because its up to them to decide not strangers.


And enough with abortions it is the mothers choice so everyone needs to back off.......

No one has the right to choose to kill another human being.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

It's a child the same way an egg is a chicken. There's a reason vegetarians only eat non-fertilized eggs.

I went over this already.

At some point a fetus is still a child. I believe that you get 1 choice in whether or not to have a baby, which is when you decide to have sex. Killing off things that will be children on a whim is immoral in my opinion.

So a man can have sex without any consequences, but a women have to give birth (a wery painfull event) to a baby?

Ah, so killing an innocent human being is okay if it lets you dodge responsibility?

There are multiple definitions of "child". There is "a human being between birth and puberty", as in "Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children.", and there's "a son or daughter, an offspring", as in "My children are 35 and 23 years old.".

And none of them describe a fetus.

The second one does.

[Umbagar]

There's been another thing like this on recently. Heard about the russian artist who has strapped himself into an electric chair- and people online get to click and zap him. it's supposed to be a test to portray if free will really comes with any internal moral limits. He's not die...but has been zapped afew times, so obviously some people are lacking. Looks like we still need government...even if I do think a libertarian would be better.

They made a movie similar to that a while back. It's actually a pretty scary concept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untraceable

[Fartsniffage]

You want to zap him, don't you?

Yes.

[Arilando]

Why are you against having sex for fun? And how is it justified that someone should pay child support if they do not themselves decide what happens to the child support?

Can you point out when I said I'm against having sex for fun? Have you heard of condoms? Very useful objects are they. Child support goes to the woman that they made pregnant to support her and the child.

What if you think sex is better without codoms? And why not just say that the one responsible for the child is the one who can afford to pay for it, instead of child support.

[Nulono]

There's been another thing like this on recently. Heard about the russian artist who has strapped himself into an electric chair- and people online get to click and zap him. it's supposed to be a test to portray if free will really comes with any internal moral limits. He's not die...but has been zapped afew times, so obviously some people are lacking. Looks like we still need government...even if I do think a libertarian would be better.

Got a link?

http://tinyurl.com/268athl

[Fartsniffage]

http://tinyurl.com/268athl

[Umbagar]

It's a child the same way an egg is a chicken. There's a reason vegetarians only eat non-fertilized eggs.

There's a chicken inside the egg.

If someone comes down the street grabs you, violates you, and hurts you that causes permanent and scarring emotional damage.then imagine living in a state of perpetual self loathing at the fetus in your stomach for 9 months, plus lost work and wages that could bankrupt a poor person. That is enough to drive someone insane and ruin their life.

And that totally justifies killing an innocent third party.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

The word "child" has multiple definitions, among them "a human being between birth and puberty" ("Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children") and "a son or daughter, and offspring" ("All of my children are now married with children of their own.").

Please explain furher.

1. What if I killed you before you could say that? What if you didn't see it coming? What if you were asleep or in a coma?
2. Adoption does not happen instantaneously. Until they can find an adoptive family, the infant is a burden.
3. Since when does being a burden mean you have no right to live?

4chan are a bunch of nerds.................... But anyways i won't vote because its up to them to decide not strangers.


And enough with abortions it is the mothers choice so everyone needs to back off.......

No one has the right to choose to kill another human being.

Uh-huh. Care to show me where I have disregarded legal personhood?

Are you saying you DO think it was right to kill Native Americans or any other group when they weren't legally persons?

Maybe you should try debating with actual people then, rather than carictatures of your opponents that you have built in your head. Honestly, the real world isn't that scary a place.

Maybe you should try presenting better arguments.

If someone comes down the street grabs you, violates you, and hurts you that causes permanent and scarring emotional damage.then imagine living in a state of perpetual self loathing at the fetus in your stomach for 9 months, plus lost work and wages that could bankrupt a poor person. That is enough to drive someone insane and ruin their life.

And that totally justifies killing an innocent third party.

Wrong. If it is a fetus it isn't a child. If it is a child it is no longer a fetus.

The word "child" has multiple definitions, among them "a human being between birth and puberty" ("Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children") and "a son or daughter, and offspring" ("All of my children are now married with children of their own.").

Please explain furher.

1. What if I killed you before you could say that? What if you didn't see it coming? What if you were asleep or in a coma?
2. Adoption does not happen instantaneously. Until they can find an adoptive family, the infant is a burden.
3. Since when does being a burden mean you have no right to live?

4chan are a bunch of nerds.................... But anyways i won't vote because its up to them to decide not strangers.


And enough with abortions it is the mothers choice so everyone needs to back off.......

No one has the right to choose to kill another human being.

It's a child the same way an egg is a chicken. There's a reason vegetarians only eat non-fertilized eggs.

I went over this already.

So a man can have sex without any consequences, but a women have to give birth (a wery painfull event) to a baby?

Ah, so killing an innocent human being is okay if it lets you dodge responsibility?

And none of them describe a fetus.

The second one does.

If the mother is going to be, for lack of a better word, tortured without her consent then she has the right to abort. she was there first.