Hungary to Constitutionally Mandate Christian Gender Roles

[Cordel One]

Except World War Two. I could read about it for a day and say in a second after someone asked me who the bad guy was "Germany and their accomplices"

Which is of course why Hitler is considered an ok dude in India.

And your point?

[The Marlborough]

It's more about replicating a meme that keeps the teleological sociocultural evolution view of history alive and kicking.

Oh, okay. Well, my replicating that meme is a direct result of my belief in the sociocultural evolution view of history, so you've got me there. You may want to debate that with me, but as a closeted transwoman in a very bad situation, a good chunk of my emotional health is relying on my continued belief that the nature of sociocultural evolution means that I will inevitably be validated in some indeterminate point in the future. I'd rather not risk the possibility of destabilizing my emotional health by debating that right now.

Fair enough, apologies.

[Geneviev]

Homophobia/transphobia aren't Christian, and this is wrong.

[Salus Maior]

Joke’s on them, with the Pope approving gay marriage, Christian gender roles isn’t what they think it is.

That's not what happened, of course.

[Palmyrion]

Joke’s on them, with the Pope approving gay marriage, Christian gender roles isn’t what they think it is.

That's not what happened, of course.

What he approved according to the documentary cited was civil unions. Debate on the definition of marriage as a social contract aside, that will definitely shake up the entirety of Christendom, by a lot. That's to say nothing of his 2015 statement about gay people.

Even the local Cardinal of the entire Catholic Church in the Philippines (Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle) condemned the harsh treatment of LGBT people in the Philippines: Link.

I'll bet my balls the local Talibangelicals will say they're wolves in sheep's clothing.

[Palmyrion]

Homophobia/transphobia aren't Christian, and this is wrong.

but but but muh 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Deu 20:13

[Geneviev]

Homophobia/transphobia aren't Christian, and this is wrong.

but but but muh 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Deu 20:13

The original language is pretty unclear in those verses. I have my Genesis 1:31, though.

[Palmyrion]

but but but muh 1 Cor 6:9-11 and Deu 20:13

The original language is pretty unclear in those verses. I have my Genesis 1:31, though.

I'm sure you've missed the sarcastic half of that statement, but anyways.

I've seen people assert "given the cultural context of the time they condemned paedophilia and said nothing about homosexuality between consenting adults" type of arguments.

(unrelated, people don't have as much qualms about female homosexuality as they do about male homosexuality. even better: lesbians are fetishised while gays are demonised.)

[Geneviev]

The original language is pretty unclear in those verses. I have my Genesis 1:31, though.

I'm sure you've missed the sarcastic half of that statement, but anyways.

I've seen people assert "given the cultural context of the time they condemned paedophilia and said nothing about homosexuality between consenting adults" type of arguments.

(unrelated, people don't have as much qualms about female homosexuality as they do about male homosexuality. even better: lesbians are fetishised while gays are demonised.)

You were sarcastic, maybe. There are enough people who think that way.

[Salus Maior]

That's not what happened, of course.

What he approved according to the documentary cited was civil unions. Debate on the definition of marriage as a social contract aside, that will definitely shake up the entirety of Christendom, by a lot. That's to say nothing of his 2015 statement about gay people.

Even the local Cardinal of the entire Catholic Church in the Philippines (Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle) condemned the harsh treatment of LGBT people in the Philippines: Link.

I'll bet my balls the local Talibangelicals will say they're wolves in sheep's clothing.

Well, I would agree that LGBT people should not be abused. And considering that in the Catholic Church's view, Christian marriage is something fundamentally different from secular unions, it doesn't really change the Church's ultimate standards on marriage.

[Nakena]

Again: regardless of what Turtleshroom thinks or if the Hungarian people agree with him, the European Union and the electorates in all of its western states clearly don't, so I see no reason why they should keep including Hungary in their club when it's proving it doesn't share their values (and not only on the question of gender, but on democratic government itself). And if the Hungarian people and government do share Turtleshroom's beliefs, I'm not sure why they'd want to be associated with a bunch of decadent champagne-swigging, waffle-frying, sauerkraut-munching pedophiles in Paris and Brussels and Berlin.

Bruh.

So nations should be kicked out just because their current government isnt exactly in line?

[Shrillland]

Again: regardless of what Turtleshroom thinks or if the Hungarian people agree with him, the European Union and the electorates in all of its western states clearly don't, so I see no reason why they should keep including Hungary in their club when it's proving it doesn't share their values (and not only on the question of gender, but on democratic government itself). And if the Hungarian people and government do share Turtleshroom's beliefs, I'm not sure why they'd want to be associated with a bunch of decadent champagne-swigging, waffle-frying, sauerkraut-munching pedophiles in Paris and Brussels and Berlin.

Bruh.

So nations should be kicked out just because their current government isnt exactly in line?

This isn't just a slight disagreement over economics, this is a question of whether human beings will be treated as human beings. The EU isn't just an economic bloc anymore, it's an idea that Europe's future and continued peace lay in liberal democracy for all members. If Hungary is determined to carry out illiberal ideals that run anathema to Europe's needs, then it should be punished for its inhumanity.

[New haven america]

Again: regardless of what Turtleshroom thinks or if the Hungarian people agree with him, the European Union and the electorates in all of its western states clearly don't, so I see no reason why they should keep including Hungary in their club when it's proving it doesn't share their values (and not only on the question of gender, but on democratic government itself). And if the Hungarian people and government do share Turtleshroom's beliefs, I'm not sure why they'd want to be associated with a bunch of decadent champagne-swigging, waffle-frying, sauerkraut-munching pedophiles in Paris and Brussels and Berlin.

Bruh.

So nations should be kicked out just because their current government isnt exactly in line?

Basically, yeah.

Want to be in the EU? Follow the EU's social guidelines.

[Salus Maior]

Bruh.

So nations should be kicked out just because their current government isnt exactly in line?

This isn't just a slight disagreement over economics, this is a question of whether human beings will be treated as human beings. The EU isn't just an economic bloc anymore, it's an idea that Europe's future and continued peace lay in liberal democracy for all members. If Hungary is determined to carry out illiberal ideals that run anathema to Europe's needs, then it should be punished for its inhumanity.

If you want the EU to start disintegrating, go ahead and try to punish member-states.

[Nakena]

Bruh.

So nations should be kicked out just because their current government isnt exactly in line?

This isn't just a slight disagreement over economics, this is a question of whether human beings will be treated as human beings. The EU isn't just an economic bloc anymore, it's an idea that Europe's future and continued peace lay in liberal democracy for all members. If Hungary is determined to carry out illiberal ideals that run anathema to Europe's needs, then it should be punished for its inhumanity.

It's a disagreement with the current government of Hungary of Orban. He may not be in stay power forever. Theres also possibilities of cutting the EU regional funding to him if he keeps doing stuff the rest of the EU does not like or is in crass disagreements with its real or supposed values. Theres a lot of ways to deal with the situation, diplomatically and otherwise short of kicking out the entire nation out of the EU. Doing so would likely lead Hungary to join the russian sphere of influence and become permanently an hostile nation. Kicking out Hungary of the EU would be an incredibly dumb move and only benefit Moscow and Putin.

Also unlike west european nations with lot of wealth the hungarians (even Orban!) know the advantages of the EU, hence theres never talk about leaving it.

[New haven america]

This isn't just a slight disagreement over economics, this is a question of whether human beings will be treated as human beings. The EU isn't just an economic bloc anymore, it's an idea that Europe's future and continued peace lay in liberal democracy for all members. If Hungary is determined to carry out illiberal ideals that run anathema to Europe's needs, then it should be punished for its inhumanity.

It's a disagreement with the current government of Hungary of Orban. He may not be in stay power forever. Theres also possibilities of cutting the EU regional funding to him if he keeps doing stuff the rest of the EU does not like or is in crass disagreements with its real or supposed values. Theres a lot of ways to deal with the situation, diplomatically and otherwise short of kicking out the entire nation out of the EU. Doing so would likely lead Hungary to join the russian sphere of influence and become permanently an hostile nation. Kicking out Hungary of the EU would be an incredibly dumb move and only benefit Moscow and Putin.

Also unlike west european nations with lot of wealth the hungarians (even Orban!) know the advantages of the EU, hence theres never talk about leaving it.

Then maybe they shouldn't do shit that should get them kicked out?

[Senkaku]

Again: regardless of what Turtleshroom thinks or if the Hungarian people agree with him, the European Union and the electorates in all of its western states clearly don't, so I see no reason why they should keep including Hungary in their club when it's proving it doesn't share their values (and not only on the question of gender, but on democratic government itself). And if the Hungarian people and government do share Turtleshroom's beliefs, I'm not sure why they'd want to be associated with a bunch of decadent champagne-swigging, waffle-frying, sauerkraut-munching pedophiles in Paris and Brussels and Berlin.

Bruh.

So nations should be kicked out just because their current government isnt exactly in line?

I mean, yeah? If you join an alliance passionately committed to human rights, and then start... suppressing human rights, you should get axed. And by the way, this is hardly the only mark against Hungary. Do you really want to try and explain how what Fidesz has been doing is totally democratic and definitely not turning the clock back to the days of corrupt single-party authoritarianism? Between their subversion of democracy, their campaign of hate against refugees and Roma people, and now this nonsense, Hungary clearly feels a closer affinity with Moscow than with Brussels. I say let them-- and the Poles, who are on much the same path-- enjoy this friendship forged in right-wing solidarity with their comrades to the east, if they feel the EU and its values are so antithetical to their own. And if they discover that perhaps this new relationship has some unexpected downsides, well-- they're welcome back whenever they begin to once again feel solidarity with Europe's values and her people.

Now, the French and Germans will never do it, because their governments are run by cowards who seem to have missed the point that as long as they're both in it, the EU is serving its purpose, but.

[Nakena]

Bruh.

So nations should be kicked out just because their current government isnt exactly in line?

Basically, yeah.

Want to be in the EU? Follow the EU's social guidelines.

The EU is what the member states make of it. Social guidelines are just that. They are also subject to changing definitions. And they are also highly selective. Everyone cries about Poland and Hungary. But what about Romania? Where the government is led by people who acting like the exact stereotypes of lizard man and also have been using chemical weaopns their own people and demonstrants in the past. Its so abhorrent that i'd say the EU should intervene military.

This is a lot worse. But apparently its not interesting enough. Theres not a good story or headline with trigger words for it.

[Picairn]

The EU should cut special benefits and aid to Hungary, but don't kick it out.

[Senkaku]

Basically, yeah.

Want to be in the EU? Follow the EU's social guidelines.

The EU is what the member states make of it. Social guidelines are just that. They are also subject to changing definitions. And they are also highly selective. Everyone cries about Poland and Hungary. But what about Romania? Where the government is led by people who acting like the exact stereotypes of lizard man and also have been gassing their own people and demonstrants in the past. Its so abhorrent that i'd say the EU should intervene military.

This is a lot worse. But apparently its not interesting enough. Theres not a good story or headline with trigger words for it.

Perhaps the EU should have considered that such backsliding was a possibility and built in procedures for the other countries to respond to or expel such miscreants before it started letting in a bunch of questionably stable new democracies from the newly capitalist East. But they didn't, and now here we are, left with no good options, only less bad ones.

[San Lumen]

Hungary should be ousted from the EU. They are no longer a democracy and have become a one party state.

[Shrillland]

Basically, yeah.

Want to be in the EU? Follow the EU's social guidelines.

The EU is what the member states make of it. Social guidelines are just that. They are also subject to changing definitions. And they are also highly selective. Everyone cries about Poland and Hungary. But what about Romania? Where the government is led by people who acting like the exact stereotypes of lizard man and also have been using chemical weaopns their own people and demonstrants in the past. Its so abhorrent that i'd say the EU should intervene military.

This is a lot worse. But apparently its not interesting enough. Theres not a good story or headline with trigger words for it.

Romania got rid of that government, Ludo Orban hasn't done things like that from what I've seen.

[Nakena]

I mean, yeah? If you join an alliance passionately committed to human rights, and then start... suppressing human rights, you should get axed. And by the way, this is hardly the only mark against Hungary. Do you really want to try and explain how what Fidesz has been doing is totally democratic and definitely not turning the clock back to the days of corrupt single-party authoritarianism? Between their subversion of democracy, their campaign of hate against refugees and Roma people, and now this nonsense, Hungary clearly feels a closer affinity with Moscow than with Brussels. I say let them-- and the Poles, who are on much the same path-- enjoy this friendship forged in right-wing solidarity with their comrades to the east, if they feel the EU and its values are so antithetical to their own. And if they discover that perhaps this new relationship has some unexpected downsides, well-- they're welcome back whenever they begin to once again feel solidarity with Europe's values and her people.

Now, the French and Germans will never do it, because their governments are run by cowards who seem to have missed the point that as long as they're both in it, the EU is serving its purpose, but.

The EU isnt an alliance but an however strongly flawed project to bring europeans together under a single banner so that they do not get swept away by history or turn against each other. It's greater than a single drama and matters certainly more than the antics of a specific government acting out of line there like Orbans. Kicking out Hungary of the EU would only empower Orban and all those policies you dont like further and will help to solidify them further. They become a real deal that way, rather than just some redundant grand standing and virtue signalling of Orban as what they are now.

I am sure the Hungarians and Poles feel very much european and they should not be denied their right to belong to the one flawed union that currently represents the european people. Maybe in the future there will be something else and better comes in it's place, but thats how things are right now.

As for the current governments, they do suck, but they will not stay forever.

[Salus Maior]

It's a disagreement with the current government of Hungary of Orban. He may not be in stay power forever. Theres also possibilities of cutting the EU regional funding to him if he keeps doing stuff the rest of the EU does not like or is in crass disagreements with its real or supposed values. Theres a lot of ways to deal with the situation, diplomatically and otherwise short of kicking out the entire nation out of the EU. Doing so would likely lead Hungary to join the russian sphere of influence and become permanently an hostile nation. Kicking out Hungary of the EU would be an incredibly dumb move and only benefit Moscow and Putin.

Also unlike west european nations with lot of wealth the hungarians (even Orban!) know the advantages of the EU, hence theres never talk about leaving it.

Then maybe they shouldn't do shit that should get them kicked out?

If you want to empower Russia, go right ahead. They're looking for more friends.

[Nakena]

The EU is what the member states make of it. Social guidelines are just that. They are also subject to changing definitions. And they are also highly selective. Everyone cries about Poland and Hungary. But what about Romania? Where the government is led by people who acting like the exact stereotypes of lizard man and also have been gassing their own people and demonstrants in the past. Its so abhorrent that i'd say the EU should intervene military.

This is a lot worse. But apparently its not interesting enough. Theres not a good story or headline with trigger words for it.

Perhaps the EU should have considered that such backsliding was a possibility and built in procedures for the other countries to respond to or expel such miscreants before it started letting in a bunch of questionably stable new democracies from the newly capitalist East. But they didn't, and now here we are, left with no good options, only less bad ones.

Theres quite a number of such procedures in existence. They are not used because the Fidez members in parliament are important for the EPP (conservatives, merkel, etc) to keep a majority. So in other words Fidez can get away with this because the EPP needs Orbans votes.

Politics are an interesting thing aren't they?