2019-2020 US Election Megathread III: Biden VS Biden

[Byzconia]

No, we didn't. America's become more democratic over time, not less.

Also, not sure where you're getting the claim that "liberal democracy ends up like this, always," given that no stable democracy has ever devolved into anything less.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

None of which changes the fact that she still said it. You're acting as if there was no possible alternative when she could've just...you know, not said that. It's great that she followed up by talking about actual policy, but it doesn't change the fact she still shot herself in the foot. It's not anyone else's fault that she apparently doesn't understand optics. She's just a bad politician, plain and simple.

If only the meteorologist hadn't said the hurricane was coming.

False equivocation. And even if it weren't, she didn't say, "A lot of coal miners are going to go out of business," she explicitly said, "We're going to put a lot of coal miners out of business."

Last I checked, meteorologists don't usually say, "I'm going to send a hurricane to the east coast." Try again.

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

We had one, long ago, but liberal democracy ends up like this, always

People criticized American fascists in the 30’s because of their support of abolishing democracy, look where that’s gotten the country

No, we didn't. America's become more democratic over time, not less.

Also, not sure where you're getting the claim that "liberal democracy ends up like this, always," given that no stable democracy has ever devolved into anything less.

Then we fundamentally disagree, then, America wasn’t a democracy at its foundation due to it excluding the majority of its population from voting. It isn’t a democracy now as it’s controlled by special interests and bureaucrats, often related to corporations. There was only a small timeframe when America was an actual democracy.

I’d also argue that America is oldest continuously functioning “democracy” in the world, without any major shifts in governmental functions since the time the constitution was drafted. Therefore, its the first one in modern times to start experiencing the breakdown of democracy, a phenomenon that will hit other nations as well

[Shofercia]

Joe Biden raised the specter of Hillary Clinton by telling laid off coal workers to learn to code

You know what good for him. These people have to stop being so myopic and clinging to a dying industry. They need to start diversifying their economy and stop being so selfish and narrow minded

Easy to say for the younger ones, but when you see that many of them are in their 40s and early 50s and genuinely can't be re-trained due to physical or mental impairment caused by their work, you'll understand why it's so difficult to adapt and why they're so desperate to hold on to what they have.

They absolutely can get another job. Go into retail at the very least

Dude, no. Look, yes-their industry is dying and it's not coming back no matter how hard anyone claps. That's not a partisan position, that's just the reality of the situation. Industries die, and it's not the fault of the workers who sacrificed their health or dedicated their lives to doing it. The Trump/republican mantra of holding up these jobs forever is condescendingly ridiculous, but so is "Just replace your well paying job with a minimum wage part time job with little in terms of benefits and job security." That's the Republican plan, no security get any job you can and then cling to it like debris from a sinking ship because it's your only hope and in the process surrender all your power to employers so you work for less and ask for less and wages become stagnate and wealth inequality grows.

There has to be a network in place that catches people who worked their asses off, who played by the rules and did what was asked who through no fault of their own wound up at the end of the sidewalk. And that shouldn't be, "Take this much shittier job that doesn't exist because the economic ecosystem of your region was built on your previous job." Like someone else already said, universal health care is one of the ways we can do that, so that people's health aren't tied to their employment. Free or cheap education is another. A more robust social safety net in terms of unemployment and welfare so that if people do need to retrain, relocate, or build a new industry for an area where an industry has died, they don't lose everything in the process, all those things do that.

And there's evidence that this brings returns because the vast majority of entrepreneurs and people who have made big changes have done it with support. If we make at least some form of support universal, we unlock a shit ton more potential. Not everyone is going to suddenly become Jeff Bezos but we will spread the opportunity out further.

But telling them to suck it and take another shittier job that also doesn't exist is not a winning strategy. It's worse than lying to them about saving their industry because it gives them almost no choice but to believe the lies.

We have for way to long let people frame the social safety net in terms of 'lazy' people who won't work instead of something that's there for the people who kept their nose down and did the work and played by the rules who, through no fault of their own, ended up at the end of whatever they were doing. Fine if we're attaching our balloon to capitalism, but let's acknowledge that capitalism is a turbulent stormy ecosystem that can leave people out in the cold through no fault of their own and build some shelter to make sure everyone can get back in the game.

You're not going to do that with a 'let them eat cake' style response of 'go work retail.'

The main problem though is no matter what you tell these people they tune it out and only want to hear you will save their jobs.

If your response is 'just work retail' or 'reinvent the economy of your entire area you dolts' then yeah they tune you out. Play a better tune.

If all they want to hear is we will keep the mine open then that's more their problem. within a decade or two the industry will be gone and their town's economy will collapse. It's quite selfish and myopic that they arent open too any change.

Large corporations could help but they care too much about how big their profits instead of helping communities that could use the investment. Crystal City doesn't.

They're not being selfish, they're terrified. As a great and since discredited author once wrote, "Rich people can afford to be progressive. Poor people have reason to fear the future." This is especially true if they have reason to believe that the future doesn't want them. Scared people often don't embrace such radical change, they cling on to what they know and what they can know.

Being afraid is ok but that doesnt mean you cling to a dying industry. I may not know a coal miners life but I want them in the future. I dont think they should be left behind. I want to welcome them into renewable energy or the tech world.

They aren't clinging to a dying industry, they are clinging to having a unionized job with high pay and good benefits. It's not about the coal. They don't have a passion for digging for coal, it really isn't fun for them - but most of them have almost no chance to find another line of work without settling for less.

So they continue to support a party that has been entirely about busting unions. Do they have barbeque sauce facials?

They support the party that makes them feel respected. The Republicans are liars and the miners will be worse off for voting for them, but one is inclined to choose an empty promise over outright contempt.

And when the coal mine closes and their towns economy collapses and they have no food stamps or unemployment insurance they will only have themselves to blame

Statements like this from Democrats are why they keep voting for Republicans.

It just never ceases to amaze me how professional some of the Democrats are at alienating voters. I've even heard an argument that the Democrats should ally with the Neocons against President Trump. There are plenty of reasons to disagree with President Trump, but Neocon reasoning of "waaa, he doesn't fuck over enough brown people!" isn't one of them. The Rural, hard working, Rust Belt voters need economic reforms, but instead Democrats are giving Healthcare to illegal aliens. Why can't they do both? Good question! Why can't they? It's not like America's lacking in talent, or taking out debt to actually address these critical issues.

Or take the Latinos. For them, going to college and graduating is why their parents came here and worked for next to nothing. Instead of the American Dream, they get a nightmare scenario, where they have debt, but no jobs, because the collegiate education became devalued, and their tuition is higher, because professor pension must be paid! $200k? $300k? One million? Line it up!

And when President Trump wins, we get a non-stop, twenty four seven chant about fucking racism. Over and over and over again. He's racist. He's pro-Putin. He's mean. He tweets. Do you really think those swing voters you lost are going to give a shit about any of that? As Page said:

They support the party that makes them feel respected. The Republicans are liars and the miners will be worse off for voting for them, but one is inclined to choose an empty promise over outright contempt.

We've seen that with Clinton's "Deplorables" or Romney's "47% pay no income tax" comments. And now you guys are talking about a Biden/Kasich ticket - two old, decrepit white guys who ignore rural america. What a way to energize rural Americans, minorities, and your own base! And when the rest of us point out that you're reelecting Trump with this idiocy, we're suddenly "Russian Agents" or "Republicans shills" or simply "racists" or whatever other memeless crap you come up with.

And then the Republicans troll you by saying "left can't meme" and you you attempt to make memes, while those voters are slowly considering voting for President Trump. And if you'll lose in 2020, we'll have the same crap. Over and over and over again. And yes, I know Kasich did some good stuff as Governor of Ohio, but why didn't he do any of that as Budget Chair? Was he too busy working for Lehman Brothers prior to the housing collapse? Being in Congress certainly didn't stop Bernie Sanders from helping his state, what a guy! If only he was running for president on the Democratic ticket...

[Byzconia]

Except the last part was just me being a smartass, but go off, I guess.

Being a smartass isn't likes yelling "BASE!" in a game of tag. If the central premise of your smartassery is flawed, you still get tagged.

Except it wasn't flawed. She accused me of saying something I didn't say, I responded in kind. Despite what liberals keep insisting, I have absolutely zero obligation to engage in good faith with someone who's not acting in good faith, themselves.

She did nothing of the sort.

It's adorable that you think people can't criticize Hillary. Criticizing Hillary is a national pastime and has been since 1992.

According to her cultists, we very much can't. According to them, her election loss was because of: Susan Sarandon, Jill Stein, Russia, racism, sexism, and "Bernie Bros." As you may notice, none of these things are Hillary Clinton.

So, people in your head and no one you're actually having a discussion with. Well, this has been a waste of time.[/quote]
TIL that Rachel Maddow only exists in my head. This kind of shit is why I fucking hate liberals. You're all just as bad as you accuse conservatives of being. You're not interested in good faith discussion, so I'm not interested in responding to you anymore.

[Byzconia]

No, we didn't. America's become more democratic over time, not less.

Also, not sure where you're getting the claim that "liberal democracy ends up like this, always," given that no stable democracy has ever devolved into anything less.

Then we fundamentally disagree, then, America wasn’t a democracy at its foundation due to it excluding the majority of its population from voting. It isn’t a democracy now as it’s controlled by special interests and bureaucrats, often related to corporations. There was only a small timeframe when America was an actual democracy.

There was never any point when America was a democracy. There have always been massive barriers in the way of people exercising true political freedom. Those barriers didn't go away, they just shifted over time.

I’d also argue that America is oldest continuously functioning “democracy” in the world, without any major shifts in governmental functions since the time the constitution was drafted. Therefore, its the first one in modern times to start experiencing the breakdown of democracy, a phenomenon that will hit other nations as well

And, again, the problem is that you're mis-defining "democracy." America is not one, nor was it ever intended to be, so claiming that America's breakdown somehow "proves" the flaws of democracy is like saying that the Soviet Union's collapse proves how democracy doesn't work. It's just a non-sequitur.

[Zurkerx]

Drag this out a few more pages. You all know what each other meant, so the only end game left is to see how long you guys can be obstinate about it.

I'm trying, but another holiday's coming, so nothing on the election news front.

Then let there be some polls then: one for Virginia, and one for Florida.

Yeah, yeah, I know it's too early but this gives us a snap look. Virginia is surprising here: Biden is the only Democrat to beat Trump there; Biden is the only candidate to win in Virginia and Florida. The poll does have a "C" Rating from 538 so I think the numbers are off for Virginia, a State turning increasingly blue. Florida I suspect is a lot closer.

Also, A Majority of Independents Think U.S. is on the Wrong Track. To break it down:

~61% of independents said the country is heading in the wrong direction, compared to 29 percent who thought the country was on the right track.

~80% of Democrats said the country is heading in the wrong direction compared to 29% Republicans saying the same thing.

~Overall, 42% think the country is heading in the right direction while 58% said it's heading in the wrong direction.

These numbers aren't good for Trump but as long as the economy maintains and or the Democrats nominate a terrible candidate, he'll probably win.

[The Black Forrest]

Joe Biden raised the specter of Hillary Clinton by telling laid off coal workers to learn to code

You know what good for him. These people have to stop being so myopic and clinging to a dying industry. They need to start diversifying their economy and stop being so selfish and narrow minded

Easy to say for the younger ones, but when you see that many of them are in their 40s and early 50s and genuinely can't be re-trained due to physical or mental impairment caused by their work, you'll understand why it's so difficult to adapt and why they're so desperate to hold on to what they have.

They absolutely can get another job. Go into retail at the very least

Dude, no. Look, yes-their industry is dying and it's not coming back no matter how hard anyone claps. That's not a partisan position, that's just the reality of the situation. Industries die, and it's not the fault of the workers who sacrificed their health or dedicated their lives to doing it. The Trump/republican mantra of holding up these jobs forever is condescendingly ridiculous, but so is "Just replace your well paying job with a minimum wage part time job with little in terms of benefits and job security." That's the Republican plan, no security get any job you can and then cling to it like debris from a sinking ship because it's your only hope and in the process surrender all your power to employers so you work for less and ask for less and wages become stagnate and wealth inequality grows.

There has to be a network in place that catches people who worked their asses off, who played by the rules and did what was asked who through no fault of their own wound up at the end of the sidewalk. And that shouldn't be, "Take this much shittier job that doesn't exist because the economic ecosystem of your region was built on your previous job." Like someone else already said, universal health care is one of the ways we can do that, so that people's health aren't tied to their employment. Free or cheap education is another. A more robust social safety net in terms of unemployment and welfare so that if people do need to retrain, relocate, or build a new industry for an area where an industry has died, they don't lose everything in the process, all those things do that.

And there's evidence that this brings returns because the vast majority of entrepreneurs and people who have made big changes have done it with support. If we make at least some form of support universal, we unlock a shit ton more potential. Not everyone is going to suddenly become Jeff Bezos but we will spread the opportunity out further.

But telling them to suck it and take another shittier job that also doesn't exist is not a winning strategy. It's worse than lying to them about saving their industry because it gives them almost no choice but to believe the lies.

We have for way to long let people frame the social safety net in terms of 'lazy' people who won't work instead of something that's there for the people who kept their nose down and did the work and played by the rules who, through no fault of their own, ended up at the end of whatever they were doing. Fine if we're attaching our balloon to capitalism, but let's acknowledge that capitalism is a turbulent stormy ecosystem that can leave people out in the cold through no fault of their own and build some shelter to make sure everyone can get back in the game.

You're not going to do that with a 'let them eat cake' style response of 'go work retail.'

The main problem though is no matter what you tell these people they tune it out and only want to hear you will save their jobs.

If your response is 'just work retail' or 'reinvent the economy of your entire area you dolts' then yeah they tune you out. Play a better tune.

If all they want to hear is we will keep the mine open then that's more their problem. within a decade or two the industry will be gone and their town's economy will collapse. It's quite selfish and myopic that they arent open too any change.

Large corporations could help but they care too much about how big their profits instead of helping communities that could use the investment. Crystal City doesn't.

They're not being selfish, they're terrified. As a great and since discredited author once wrote, "Rich people can afford to be progressive. Poor people have reason to fear the future." This is especially true if they have reason to believe that the future doesn't want them. Scared people often don't embrace such radical change, they cling on to what they know and what they can know.

Being afraid is ok but that doesnt mean you cling to a dying industry. I may not know a coal miners life but I want them in the future. I dont think they should be left behind. I want to welcome them into renewable energy or the tech world.

They aren't clinging to a dying industry, they are clinging to having a unionized job with high pay and good benefits. It's not about the coal. They don't have a passion for digging for coal, it really isn't fun for them - but most of them have almost no chance to find another line of work without settling for less.

So they continue to support a party that has been entirely about busting unions. Do they have barbeque sauce facials?

They support the party that makes them feel respected. The Republicans are liars and the miners will be worse off for voting for them, but one is inclined to choose an empty promise over outright contempt.

And when the coal mine closes and their towns economy collapses and they have no food stamps or unemployment insurance they will only have themselves to blame

Statements like this from Democrats are why they keep voting for Republicans.

It just never ceases to amaze me how professional some of the Democrats are at alienating voters. I've even heard an argument that the Democrats should ally with the Neocons against President Trump. There are plenty of reasons to disagree with President Trump, but Neocon reasoning of "waaa, he doesn't fuck over enough brown people!" isn't one of them. The Rural, hard working, Rust Belt voters need economic reforms, but instead Democrats are giving Healthcare to illegal aliens. Why can't they do both? Good question! Why can't they? It's not like America's lacking in talent, or taking out debt to actually address these critical issues.

Or take the Latinos. For them, going to college and graduating is why their parents came here and worked for next to nothing. Instead of the American Dream, they get a nightmare scenario, where they have debt, but no jobs, because the collegiate education became devalued, and their tuition is higher, because professor pension must be paid! $200k? $300k? One million? Line it up!

And when President Trump wins, we get a non-stop, twenty four seven chant about fucking racism. Over and over and over again. He's racist. He's pro-Putin. He's mean. He tweets. Do you really think those swing voters you lost are going to give a shit about any of that? As Page said:

They support the party that makes them feel respected. The Republicans are liars and the miners will be worse off for voting for them, but one is inclined to choose an empty promise over outright contempt.

We've seen that with Clinton's "Deplorables" or Romney's "47% pay no income tax" comments. And now you guys are talking about a Biden/Kasich ticket - two old, decrepit white guys who ignore rural america. What a way to energize rural Americans, minorities, and your own base! And when the rest of us point out that you're reelecting Trump with this idiocy, we're suddenly "Russian Agents" or "Republicans shills" or simply "racists" or whatever other memeless crap you come up with.

And then the Republicans troll you by saying "left can't meme" and you you attempt to make memes, while those voters are slowly considering voting for President Trump. And if you'll lose in 2020, we'll have the same crap. Over and over and over again. And yes, I know Kasich did some good stuff as Governor of Ohio, but why didn't he do any of that as Budget Chair? Was he too busy working for Lehman Brothers prior to the housing collapse? Being in Congress certainly didn't stop Bernie Sanders from helping his state, what a guy! If only he was running for president on the Democratic ticket...

Well? H does have a new industry in mind. Well she wasn’t thinking that long term. In the upcoming era of robotics. Their knowledge of mining would be quite useful for robot miners.....

[Kowani]

Joe Biden raised the specter of Hillary Clinton by telling laid off coal workers to learn to code

You know what good for him. These people have to stop being so myopic and clinging to a dying industry. They need to start diversifying their economy and stop being so selfish and narrow minded

Easy to say for the younger ones, but when you see that many of them are in their 40s and early 50s and genuinely can't be re-trained due to physical or mental impairment caused by their work, you'll understand why it's so difficult to adapt and why they're so desperate to hold on to what they have.

They absolutely can get another job. Go into retail at the very least

Dude, no. Look, yes-their industry is dying and it's not coming back no matter how hard anyone claps. That's not a partisan position, that's just the reality of the situation. Industries die, and it's not the fault of the workers who sacrificed their health or dedicated their lives to doing it. The Trump/republican mantra of holding up these jobs forever is condescendingly ridiculous, but so is "Just replace your well paying job with a minimum wage part time job with little in terms of benefits and job security." That's the Republican plan, no security get any job you can and then cling to it like debris from a sinking ship because it's your only hope and in the process surrender all your power to employers so you work for less and ask for less and wages become stagnate and wealth inequality grows.

There has to be a network in place that catches people who worked their asses off, who played by the rules and did what was asked who through no fault of their own wound up at the end of the sidewalk. And that shouldn't be, "Take this much shittier job that doesn't exist because the economic ecosystem of your region was built on your previous job." Like someone else already said, universal health care is one of the ways we can do that, so that people's health aren't tied to their employment. Free or cheap education is another. A more robust social safety net in terms of unemployment and welfare so that if people do need to retrain, relocate, or build a new industry for an area where an industry has died, they don't lose everything in the process, all those things do that.

And there's evidence that this brings returns because the vast majority of entrepreneurs and people who have made big changes have done it with support. If we make at least some form of support universal, we unlock a shit ton more potential. Not everyone is going to suddenly become Jeff Bezos but we will spread the opportunity out further.

But telling them to suck it and take another shittier job that also doesn't exist is not a winning strategy. It's worse than lying to them about saving their industry because it gives them almost no choice but to believe the lies.

We have for way to long let people frame the social safety net in terms of 'lazy' people who won't work instead of something that's there for the people who kept their nose down and did the work and played by the rules who, through no fault of their own, ended up at the end of whatever they were doing. Fine if we're attaching our balloon to capitalism, but let's acknowledge that capitalism is a turbulent stormy ecosystem that can leave people out in the cold through no fault of their own and build some shelter to make sure everyone can get back in the game.

You're not going to do that with a 'let them eat cake' style response of 'go work retail.'

The main problem though is no matter what you tell these people they tune it out and only want to hear you will save their jobs.

If your response is 'just work retail' or 'reinvent the economy of your entire area you dolts' then yeah they tune you out. Play a better tune.

If all they want to hear is we will keep the mine open then that's more their problem. within a decade or two the industry will be gone and their town's economy will collapse. It's quite selfish and myopic that they arent open too any change.

Large corporations could help but they care too much about how big their profits instead of helping communities that could use the investment. Crystal City doesn't.

They're not being selfish, they're terrified. As a great and since discredited author once wrote, "Rich people can afford to be progressive. Poor people have reason to fear the future." This is especially true if they have reason to believe that the future doesn't want them. Scared people often don't embrace such radical change, they cling on to what they know and what they can know.

Being afraid is ok but that doesnt mean you cling to a dying industry. I may not know a coal miners life but I want them in the future. I dont think they should be left behind. I want to welcome them into renewable energy or the tech world.

They aren't clinging to a dying industry, they are clinging to having a unionized job with high pay and good benefits. It's not about the coal. They don't have a passion for digging for coal, it really isn't fun for them - but most of them have almost no chance to find another line of work without settling for less.

So they continue to support a party that has been entirely about busting unions. Do they have barbeque sauce facials?

They support the party that makes them feel respected. The Republicans are liars and the miners will be worse off for voting for them, but one is inclined to choose an empty promise over outright contempt.

And when the coal mine closes and their towns economy collapses and they have no food stamps or unemployment insurance they will only have themselves to blame

Statements like this from Democrats are why they keep voting for Republicans.

It just never ceases to amaze me how professional some of the Democrats are at alienating voters. I've even heard an argument that the Democrats should ally with the Neocons against President Trump. There are plenty of reasons to disagree with President Trump, but Neocon reasoning of "waaa, he doesn't fuck over enough brown people!" isn't one of them. The Rural, hard working, Rust Belt voters need economic reforms, but instead Democrats are giving Healthcare to illegal aliens. Why can't they do both? Good question! Why can't they? It's not like America's lacking in talent, or taking out debt to actually address these critical issues.

Or take the Latinos. For them, going to college and graduating is why their parents came here and worked for next to nothing. Instead of the American Dream, they get a nightmare scenario, where they have debt, but no jobs, because the collegiate education became devalued, and their tuition is higher, because professor pension must be paid! $200k? $300k? One million? Line it up!

And when President Trump wins, we get a non-stop, twenty four seven chant about fucking racism. Over and over and over again. He's racist. He's pro-Putin. He's mean. He tweets. Do you really think those swing voters you lost are going to give a shit about any of that? As Page said:

They support the party that makes them feel respected. The Republicans are liars and the miners will be worse off for voting for them, but one is inclined to choose an empty promise over outright contempt.

We've seen that with Clinton's "Deplorables" or Romney's "47% pay no income tax" comments. And now you guys are talking about a Biden/Kasich ticket - two old, decrepit white guys who ignore rural america. What a way to energize rural Americans, minorities, and your own base! And when the rest of us point out that you're reelecting Trump with this idiocy, we're suddenly "Russian Agents" or "Republicans shills" or simply "racists" or whatever other memeless crap you come up with.

And then the Republicans troll you by saying "left can't meme" and you you attempt to make memes, while those voters are slowly considering voting for President Trump. And if you'll lose in 2020, we'll have the same crap. Over and over and over again. And yes, I know Kasich did some good stuff as Governor of Ohio, but why didn't he do any of that as Budget Chair? Was he too busy working for Lehman Brothers prior to the housing collapse? Being in Congress certainly didn't stop Bernie Sanders from helping his state, what a guy! If only he was running for president on the Democratic ticket...

Bernie is running as a Democrat.

[Shrillland]

That was sarcasm, Kowani.

[Shrillland]

I'm trying, but another holiday's coming, so nothing on the election news front.

Then let there be some polls then: one for Virginia, and one for Florida.

Yeah, yeah, I know it's too early but this gives us a snap look. Virginia is surprising here: Biden is the only Democrat to beat Trump there; Biden is the only candidate to win in Virginia and Florida. The poll does have a "C" Rating from 538 so I think the numbers are off for Virginia, a State turning increasingly blue. Florida I suspect is a lot closer.

Also, A Majority of Independents Think U.S. is on the Wrong Track. To break it down:

~61% of independents said the country is heading in the wrong direction, compared to 29 percent who thought the country was on the right track.

~80% of Democrats said the country is heading in the wrong direction compared to 29% Republicans saying the same thing.

~Overall, 42% think the country is heading in the right direction while 58% said it's heading in the wrong direction.

These numbers aren't good for Trump but as long as the economy maintains and or the Democrats nominate a terrible candidate, he'll probably win.

Aye, I don't think any of us expected an easy battle this year, Trump knows, as many Republicans do, that who votes is less important than where votes.

[Byzconia]

snip

You know, Sho, you and I have had our disagreements on these forums, but this isn't one of them. You really nailed it right on the head. The only problem, of course, is that none of it matters to those people. They'll just keep insisting that everyone poorer than them is a stupid bigot who can't be allowed to think for themselves. Elitism isn't exclusive to cons or libs, but the latter are just so obvious about their contempt that it should qualify as self-harm.

[Shofercia]

Nice strawman.

No, what I blamed her for is being a moron who bragged to an entire group of people that she was going to help them be unemployed and basically told them to go fuck themselves, and then liberals were surprised that they didn't vote for her.

But, of course, we can't actually criticize the great Queen Hillary, who is the bestest, most amazing Presidential candidate to ever run and who ran a perfect campaign and only lost because of racist sexists and Russians. It definitely wasn't her own fault for running a shitty campaign, no sirry.

In context: Hillary Clinton’s comments about coal jobs

She made the comment during a March 13 CNN Town Hall. Journalist Roland Martin asked, in effect, why should poor white people vote for her.

In her response, Clinton did say that she would be putting coal companies out of business, as a result of moving toward renewable energy sources. But she followed that by saying she wanted to create new economic opportunities for current coal workers, possibly spurred by clean energy development.

Here are her full remarks, with the most relevant parts in bold:

Look, we have serious economic problems in many parts of our country. And Roland is absolutely right. Instead of dividing people the way Donald Trump does, let's reunite around policies that will bring jobs and opportunities to all these underserved poor communities.

So for example, I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right?

And we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don't want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.

What a conveniently cherrypicked narrative.

In that quote - what specific programs is she offering to help coal miners? She says that she doesn't want to fuck people over, but doesn't explain how she'll help those who will lose their jobs as a result of her policies.

Well? H does have a new industry in mind. Well she wasn’t thinking that long term. In the upcoming era of robotics. Their knowledge of mining would be quite useful for robot miners.....

I think that'd be a really cool thing to do, but what happens to the miners in the meantime?

Bernie is running as a Democrat.

No way! Dude, I think the sarcasm just went completely over your head, and I'm not the only one:

That was sarcasm, Kowani.

[Cannot think of a name]

Being a smartass isn't likes yelling "BASE!" in a game of tag. If the central premise of your smartassery is flawed, you still get tagged.

Except it wasn't flawed. She accused me of saying something I didn't say, I responded in kind. Despite what liberals keep insisting, I have absolutely zero obligation to engage in good faith with someone who's not acting in good faith, themselves.

According to her cultists, we very much can't. According to them, her election loss was because of: Susan Sarandon, Jill Stein, Russia, racism, sexism, and "Bernie Bros." As you may notice, none of these things are Hillary Clinton.

So, people in your head and no one you're actually having a discussion with. Well, this has been a waste of time.

TIL that Rachel Maddow only exists in my head. This kind of shit is why I fucking hate liberals. You're all just as bad as you accuse conservatives of being. You're not interested in good faith discussion, so I'm not interested in responding to you anymore.

We're you talking to Rachel Maddow? Did I miss that somewhere? Is one of these nations Rachel Maddow and I just not know? Is that what you think good faith arguments are? Just randomly railing against the position of some unnamed commentator until you get pressed about it and then throwing a fit? This is so far out of field that I'm not even going to bother asking you to establish this is actually Maddow's position.

[Zurkerx]

~SNIP~

I do have to agree, and I'm not supportive of neither of the two parties. The Elitist Attitude killed the Democrats in 2016 and it threatens them again in 2020: it seems they haven't learned, especially since their party leaders are from New York and California, two coastal States that are dark blue. I would argue for years Democrats have talked down to rural voters and taken them for granted but it wasn't until 2016 was when they had enough.

Indeed, educational programs are helpful but as Shrill has said, it's rather difficult for them to get a new job even with said new skills, especially if they don't have experience. Coal is dying out because natural gas is growing, an industry I would think would be easier to train displaced coal workers then sending them to low end retail. Of course, that's not for everyone, but other major reforms are needed.

I'm a bit skeptical Sanders can win in a General Election, especially in key places like Florida, but he certainly has a shot. really at this point, I don't see a completely viable Democrat winning come 2020.

[Gormwood]

In context: Hillary Clinton’s comments about coal jobs


What a conveniently cherrypicked narrative.

In that quote - what specific programs is she offering to help coal miners? She says that she doesn't want to fuck people over, but doesn't explain how she'll help those who will lose their jobs as a result of her policies.

So I am passionate about this, which is why I have put forward specific plans about how we incentivize more jobs, more investment in poor communities, and put people to work.

Is this the part where the goalpost does NASCAR and you demand explicit documents of her plans and proposals?

[Cannot think of a name]

If only the meteorologist hadn't said the hurricane was coming.

False equivocation. And even if it weren't, she didn't say, "A lot of coal miners are going to go out of business," she explicitly said, "We're going to put a lot of coal miners out of business."

Last I checked, meteorologists don't usually say, "I'm going to send a hurricane to the east coast." Try again.

They say "we're going to get a lot of rain". This hair splitting only works if you continue to ignore everything else she said in order to cling to a flawed narrative. Context is a bitch.

But again, that's 2016. If you want to keep picking at the hangnail that is Hillary that's groovy. Build yourself a time machine and go pack to when it was relevant.

[Cannot think of a name]

In that quote - what specific programs is she offering to help coal miners? She says that she doesn't want to fuck people over, but doesn't explain how she'll help those who will lose their jobs as a result of her policies.

So I am passionate about this, which is why I have put forward specific plans about how we incentivize more jobs, more investment in poor communities, and put people to work.

Is this the part where the goalpost does NASCAR and you demand explicit documents of her plans and proposals?

Eh, NASCAR was a bad choice. You know exactly where it's going to be in about a minute because they come back around. Plus NASCAR is the organizing body, so 'doing' NASCAR is goofy sounding. Maybe "acts like the mechanical rabbit in a greyhound race" would have worked better.




New level of procrastination low, I'm working on people's tags and jokes.

[Tupolite]

~SNIP~

Indeed, educational programs are helpful but as Shrill has said, it's rather difficult for them to get a new job even with said new skills, especially if they don't have experience. Coal is dying out because natural gas is growing, an industry I would think would be easier to train displaced coal workers then sending them to low end retail. Of course, that's not for everyone, but other major reforms are needed.

Behold the advent of the utopia of mass consumption. Eventually, everyone will be stuck in a low-wage service job empowering the very people who would pauperize and destroy them.

[Shofercia]

snip

You know, Sho, you and I have had our disagreements on these forums, but this isn't one of them. You really nailed it right on the head. The only problem, of course, is that none of it matters to those people. They'll just keep insisting that everyone poorer than them is a stupid bigot who can't be allowed to think for themselves. Elitism isn't exclusive to cons or libs, but the latter are just so obvious about their contempt that it should qualify as self-harm.

Thank you! It felt good to get that off my chest, because the spam was just getting tiring. Jon Stewart said it best a long time ago: "American Politics has the tendency to separate the able from the willing, and to elect - the willing"

~SNIP~

I do have to agree, and I'm not supportive of neither of the two parties. The Elitist Attitude killed the Democrats in 2016 and it threatens them again in 2020: it seems they haven't learned, especially since their party leaders are from New York and California, two coastal States that are dark blue. I would argue for years Democrats have talked down to rural voters and taken them for granted but it wasn't until 2016 was when they had enough.

Indeed, educational programs are helpful but as Shrill has said, it's rather difficult for them to get a new job even with said new skills, especially if they don't have experience. Coal is dying out because natural gas is growing, an industry I would think would be easier to train displaced coal workers then sending them to low end retail. Of course, that's not for everyone, but other major reforms are needed.

I'm a bit skeptical Sanders can win in a General Election, especially in key places like Florida, but he certainly has a shot. really at this point, I don't see a completely viable Democrat winning come 2020.

Thank you! BTW, Sanders doesn't need Florida to win. Ever since Obama lifted the sanctions on Cuba, Florida's gone red. I have Sanders beating Trump 279 to 259. He just needs to win Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. That's 46 EVs. He's got the Pacific Coalition including Nevada, 84 EVs, Colorado, New Mexico, Illinois, and Minnesota, 44 EVs, NY-DC Area, 72 EVs, and New England sweep, 33 EVs.

[Shofercia]

In that quote - what specific programs is she offering to help coal miners? She says that she doesn't want to fuck people over, but doesn't explain how she'll help those who will lose their jobs as a result of her policies.

So I am passionate about this, which is why I have put forward specific plans about how we incentivize more jobs, more investment in poor communities, and put people to work.

Is this the part where the goalpost does NASCAR and you demand explicit documents of her plans and proposals?

Wow, just wow. Are you seriously not getting this? Let me analogize to Bernie, for it to sink in. Ever note how Bernie says "Medicare for all" rather than saying "I sympathize that you can no longer afford healthcare, and I have specific plans to do so, incentivize more providers to give it, more investment in the community, and putting vaccines where they belong" - note how Sanders doesn't say the latter. Why? Because the latter sounds like a fucking platitude.

Not everyone is a Clinton fan who reads between the lines and automatically believes that whatever she says is the truth and light. Saying "I'm so passionate about this, and I totally have specific policies that I cannot describe in a stump speech but here are some platitudes, ya stupid deplorables" is what she's sounding like to the rest of us in that statement. To people outside of your bubble.

Let's say that your friends say "hey, want to hang out? Got a place in mind?" and you respond with "sure, let's go to the movie theater that we love" - that's a lot better than saying "I really want to hang out, and I appreciate the offer; in fact, I have specific places in mind, that I'm sure we all love, and we can chill there" - that's not a fucking answer that actually answers the question. It's idiotic.

[Gormwood]

Is this the part where the goalpost does NASCAR and you demand explicit documents of her plans and proposals?

Wow, just wow. Are you seriously not getting this? Let me analogize to Bernie, for it to sink in. Ever note how Bernie says "Medicare for all" rather than saying "I sympathize that you can no longer afford healthcare, and I have specific plans to do so, incentivize more providers to give it, more investment in the community, and putting vaccines where they belong" - note how Sanders doesn't say the latter. Why? Because the latter sounds like a fucking platitude.

Not everyone is a Clinton fan who reads between the lines and automatically believes that whatever she says is the truth and light. Saying "I'm so passionate about this, and I totally have specific policies that I cannot describe in a stump speech but here are some platitudes, ya stupid deplorables" is what she's sounding like to the rest of us in that statement. To people outside of your bubble.

Let's say that your friends say "hey, want to hang out? Got a place in mind?" and you respond with "sure, let's go to the movie theater that we love" - that's a lot better than saying "I really want to hang out, and I appreciate the offer; in fact, I have specific places in mind, that I'm sure we all love, and we can chill there" - that's not a fucking answer that actually answers the question. It's idiotic.

If flashy soundbites with nothing solid attracts people more than specific plans then we deserved 2016. That Wall is pretty impressive isn't it? It's Malibu Stacy With A New Hat all over again. It also explains Brexit.

[Aureumterra]

Hindu-America Hirsh Singh is challenging Cory Booker for the Senate

[Valrifell]

Hindu-America Hirsh Singh is challenging Cory Booker for the Senate

Booker is still reasonably popular, deeply entrenched, and the state is deeply blue.

A better candidate than Hugin at a glance, but supporting Trump in New Jersey is a death sentence to a political career. So there's also that.

[Shofercia]

Wow, just wow. Are you seriously not getting this? Let me analogize to Bernie, for it to sink in. Ever note how Bernie says "Medicare for all" rather than saying "I sympathize that you can no longer afford healthcare, and I have specific plans to do so, incentivize more providers to give it, more investment in the community, and putting vaccines where they belong" - note how Sanders doesn't say the latter. Why? Because the latter sounds like a fucking platitude.

Not everyone is a Clinton fan who reads between the lines and automatically believes that whatever she says is the truth and light. Saying "I'm so passionate about this, and I totally have specific policies that I cannot describe in a stump speech but here are some platitudes, ya stupid deplorables" is what she's sounding like to the rest of us in that statement. To people outside of your bubble.

Let's say that your friends say "hey, want to hang out? Got a place in mind?" and you respond with "sure, let's go to the movie theater that we love" - that's a lot better than saying "I really want to hang out, and I appreciate the offer; in fact, I have specific places in mind, that I'm sure we all love, and we can chill there" - that's not a fucking answer that actually answers the question. It's idiotic.

If flashy soundbites with nothing solid attracts people more than specific plans then we deserved 2016. That Wall is pretty impressive isn't it? It's Malibu Stacy With A New Hat all over again. It also explains Brexit.

Saying "we're going to provide Medicare for everyone" - is a statement of an act that the Sanders Campaign is going to try to implement. Saying "we're going to build the wall" - is a statement of an act that the Trump Campaign is going to try to implement. You can argue that they're good policies, or bad policies, but they're statements of actual acts. Saying "I have specific programs that will do X, Y, and Z" - is bullshit if you cannot describe the programs and what they do. And it's really not that fucking difficult. "We're going to train coal miners to understand basic robotics and promote robotic factory developments in their home town" - was that so hard?

But that doesn't matter to the defenders of Queen Hillary, who will extol her virtues, much like the Neocons extolling the virtues of the disastrous Iraq War that she voted for, no matter what actually happens in reality. And to answer my earlier question - yes it was hard for Queen Hillary, because that requires actually giving a shit about Rural America, something she clearly doesn't give a shit about. And that's fucked up, no matter how valiant her defenders try to act. That's why Donald John Trump is President.

[The Black Forrest]

Well? H does have a new industry in mind. Well she wasn’t thinking that long term. In the upcoming era of robotics. Their knowledge of mining would be quite useful for robot miners.....

I think that'd be a really cool thing to do, but what happens to the miners in the meantime?

I don’t think you can fully eliminate them. We are a ways off that. The robots at least could do work and take on some of the more dangerous stuff. It would also aid them as you can work with one who has the ability to sense things like problems with air for example.