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Voerdeland
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Postby Voerdeland » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:02 pm


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Bordurian
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Postby Bordurian » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:33 pm

Voerdeland wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
although I'm not sure if Belarus and Lithuania are parts of Poland :P

They were before the war, and moving the Polish border slightly to the east of the Curzon line was seriously considered by the allies. Also, Vilnius and surrounding areas (Wileńszczyzna in Polish) have a large Polish minority, but that's yet another difficult political issue.

I thought Vilinus was called Wilno. Of course, the Soviets stole the eastern half after WWII.
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Voerdeland
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Postby Voerdeland » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:36 pm

Bordurian wrote:
Voerdeland wrote:They were before the war, and moving the Polish border slightly to the east of the Curzon line was seriously considered by the allies. Also, Vilnius and surrounding areas (Wileńszczyzna in Polish) have a large Polish minority, but that's yet another difficult political issue.

I thought Vilinus was called Wilno.

Vilnius is Wilno. Vilnius region is called "Wileńszczyzna", just like the area surrounding Rzeszów is called "Rzeszowszczyzna", the Kielce region is "Kielecczyzna" etc..
Of course, the Soviets stole the eastern half after WWII

Imperialism hurray! But seriously, keeping the Kresy would be a dumb idea. Polish-Ukrainian conflicts during (Wołyń genocide) and immediately after ("Operation Wisła") the war had showed that it would end up in an ethnic bloodshed, the last thing we needed at the time. In my honest-but-controversial Stalin actually made us a favor by creating ethnically pure nation-states (some sort of European apartheid :p ).
Last edited by Voerdeland on Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Scooby Doo and Friends
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Postby Scooby Doo and Friends » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:06 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:Some Polish blood here. After reading several books on the Polish-Soviet War following the First World War, Stalin's outright refusal to assist Polish insurgencies throughout the country to regain independence from the Third Reich, and the Soviet betrayal of Eastern Europe at large, I have come to know the way Russian governments have operated since the Tsardom have been wholly built on achieving hegemony.

From August to October in 1944, Operation Tempest, or what is more commonly referred to as the Warsaw Uprising commenced. The Polish Armia Krajowa (Home Army) fought alone and with almost no outside support against the Third Reich. Even as the Byelorussian Front of the Soviet military approached, they did very little to help their supposed allies. Great Britain and the United States alike wished to provide them with supplies on many occasions, however the Soviets forbade it. The Soviets did make a small number of 'drops', however these were done without parachutes and most of the goods were damaged or unusable. The British did manage to deliver by air a small number of specially trained commandos along with parts and blueprints for designing clandestine weapons, although it would prove fruitless. The Polish eventually surrendered after three months of heavy fighting while the Soviets waited at the Vistula. Once the Germans exited the city completely after it had been virtually obliterated, the 'liberating' communist army occupied what remained and officially established socialist rule in Poland.

Oh, and to this day the Russian Government denies any participation in the murder of well over a thousand Polish troops and officers in the Katyn Forest.

(Image)

I have no problem with the Russian people. Just their government.


That's incorrect. First: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/no ... n-massacre
Second: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... sacre.html


Finally. It only took them six decades to stop lying.

From the Guardian Article, since I like it more:

In a symbolic admission of guilt, Russia's parliament has declared that Joseph Stalin ordered his secret police to execute 22,000 Polish army officers and civilians in 1940, in one of the greatest mass murders of the 20th century...In the wake of the crash, Russia's prime minister, Vladimir Putin, made unequivocal statements about Soviet responsibility for the Katyn massacre and urged reconciliation. Historian Natalya Lebedeva, a Russian member of the two countries' intergovernmental commission on "especially complex questions", told the Guardian that Putin's words had helped the healing process. "Both Russia and Poland realise it is time to stop the confrontations," she added...A change to pro-Russian leadership in Ukraine and the prospect of Russia joining the US missile defence shield also helped. "On a human level, Poles were also very touched by so many Russians coming to our embassy in Moscow to show sympathy after the Smolensk disaster," he added.


In terms of the Warsaw Uprising, the Red Army couldn't assist as they were tired. Breaching the river, while unprepared, would've meant massive casualties. The Russians have just destroyed Army Group Center, and were now against another Army Group, that already fortified.


The First Polish Army under the Byelorussian Front was able and ready to assist in the fighting in Warsaw, but was ordered by Soviet leadership to stop. 'They were tired' does not explain the urgency of the issue. To disagree is to lie outright.

(Image)

The Russians needed to rest up before continuing. They also needed to replenish supplies. Not until January was the Red Army combat ready to once again resume offensives. And Churchill was a major douche bag here, because he knew that the Red Army was in no position to assist, and yet he gave the "go ahead" anyways. UK attaches were with the Red Army - they saw the condition. You don't just maul Nazi Germany's best Army Group, in a majorly successful offensive, without needing a massive break after the mission. The Red Army needed 5 months. Additionally, offensives that were previously launched with poor preparation, like Operation Mars, ended up being disastrous.

And I partially agree with Voerdeland:

Voerdeland wrote:No, it was only in Warsaw. In other regions of Poland (such as Lithuania or Belarus :p ) the Red Army actually assisted the rebels.


although I'm not sure if Belarus and Lithuania are parts of Poland :P


I stand corrected, although this glaring issue does not make the Red Army anymore an ally than it truly was an enemy.

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Voerdeland
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Postby Voerdeland » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:09 pm

Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:Finally. It only took them six decades to stop lying.


More like four, Gorbachev admitted that Stalin was responsible back in the 80s.

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Bordurian
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Postby Bordurian » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:15 pm

Voerdeland wrote:
Bordurian wrote:I thought Vilinus was called Wilno.

Vilnius is Wilno. Vilnius region is called "Wileńszczyzna", just like the area surrounding Rzeszów is called "Rzeszowszczyzna", the Kielce region is "Kielecczyzna" etc..
Of course, the Soviets stole the eastern half after WWII

Imperialism hurray! But seriously, keeping the Kresy would be a dumb idea. Polish-Ukrainian conflicts during (Wołyń genocide) and immediately after ("Operation Wisła") the war had showed that it would end up in an ethnic bloodshed, the last thing we needed at the time. In my honest-but-controversial Stalin actually made us a favor by creating ethnically pure nation-states (some sort of European apartheid :p ).


I lost my Great-Grandparents in the Wolyn(can't add the accents on my computer.) massacre. They were Poles living in the L'wowszczyzna.
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Scooby Doo and Friends
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Postby Scooby Doo and Friends » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Voerdeland wrote:
Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:Finally. It only took them six decades to stop lying.


More like four, Gorbachev admitted that Stalin was responsible back in the 80s.


So have others, however without an official statement made it could easily be ignored.

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Lysandrion
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Postby Lysandrion » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:52 pm

In terms of the Warsaw Uprising, the Red Army couldn't assist as they were tired.

Ok - still cannot understand why the good ol' uncle Joe didn't let allied planes supplying Warsaw to land on the Soviet air fields.
They were before the war, and moving the Polish border slightly to the east of the Curzon line was seriously considered by the allies.
Actually, Belarus and Lithuania were never part of "Poland" - they used to be parts of the great Duchy of Lithuania which, along with the Crown of Poland - constituted the Rzeczpospolita. This is something we, Poles should not disregard too easily. Some territories of Belarus and almost entire Ukraine were incorporated to the CoP after the Union of Lublin. Still, Kresy were never ethnically Polish, and the range of Polish culture and language was generally limited to the upper class (which was almost entirely Polish or polonized). The sad truth is that if there were not 17th September and all that mess, we would most likely lose the eastern territories anyway, because of the foolish policy towards Ruthenians (Pilsudski had a good idea of federation, though as we all know - it failed). In fact, we (along with Lithuanians and great aristocracy - which was ironically often of Ruthenian descent) have lost our chance in XVII century by keeping the Cossacks out of political rights - what happened in the following ages, was only a logical consequence of this mistake.
And I pretty much agree with Voerdeland - Silesia and Western Pomerania are not a bad compensation for the unerdeveloped East. Still, the way Soviets stripped us from Kresy was pretty outrageous - and they did not reveal to be a much better alternative to the locals than the Polish administration.
As for Vilnius - I was there a few times and what I have seen convinced me that we should all accept that Vilnius is no more a Polish city and it will most likely never be the one again. The same for Lvov. As for Pan-Slavism: I believe that Rzeczpospolita once had potential to bring this (or similar) idea to reality and that "our version" of Pan-Slavism could be really based on equality of nations. Well, what did not happen, did not happen, so I'll never know - and I can still believe :) .
Last edited by Lysandrion on Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Carmadin
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Postby Carmadin » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:13 pm

So much politicalness.... I liked it better when we were discussing girls ;)

But anyhow, Wołyn massacre aside (which I'd never heard of until this thread....:unsure:), I'm a Ukie, and I love you polish types :) :hug:
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:29 pm

Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:The First Polish Army under the Byelorussian Front was able and ready to assist in the fighting in Warsaw, but was ordered by Soviet leadership to stop. 'They were tired' does not explain the urgency of the issue. To disagree is to lie outright.


Not really. The First Polish Army would've been successfully slaughtered if they decided to assist on their own, or were allowed to assist on their own. In order to launch a successful offensive one needed to heal the officer cadre, i.e. either provide treatment to the wounded, and ensure that they are ready and able to fight, or provide quality reinforcements, and selecting these took time. Then you had to bring up ammunition, tons of ammunition, and properly distribute it to the armies. Then you had to ensure that the tank armies were fully repaired and operational, and that the drivers were well trained, along with gunners and commanders.

You had to set up new air bases, and mask them. You had constant recon going on. You still had to evacuate the wounded soldiers, and bring up fresh reserves, and train them. You then had to coordinate artillery markings, coordinate the recon between the army and the air force, coordinate the battle plans between the fronts. Meanwhile the spies were extracting information from Nazis on where their strong points were, where their fire points were, etc. If the First Polish Army was sent in without all this preparation, they'd be slaughtered.


Lysandrion wrote:
In terms of the Warsaw Uprising, the Red Army couldn't assist as they were tired.

Ok - still cannot understand why the good ol' uncle Joe didn't let allied planes supplying Warsaw to land on the Soviet air fields.


Stalin feared that some of those shipments might fall into Hitler's hands; Stalin was being Stalin, paranoid as always, and no, I don't agree with his decision, but Stalin's paranoia wasn't the fault of the Red Army.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:36 pm

Here's a great Patriotic Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uazwUQay ... re=related

It wasn't intended to be a Patriotic Song, but was so by the excellent move "V Boi Iduyt Odni Stariki!"


Carmadin wrote:So much politicalness.... I liked it better when we were discussing girls ;)

But anyhow, Wołyn massacre aside (which I'd never heard of until this thread....:unsure:), I'm a Ukie, and I love you polish types :) :hug:


Discussing girls sounds like fun :D

I wonder how many can pull something like this off :P

Image
Last edited by Shofercia on Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
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Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

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Bordurian
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Postby Bordurian » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:59 pm

Lysandrion wrote:
In terms of the Warsaw Uprising, the Red Army couldn't assist as they were tired.

Ok - still cannot understand why the good ol' uncle Joe didn't let allied planes supplying Warsaw to land on the Soviet air fields.
They were before the war, and moving the Polish border slightly to the east of the Curzon line was seriously considered by the allies.
Actually, Belarus and Lithuania were never part of "Poland" - they used to be parts of the great Duchy of Lithuania which, along with the Crown of Poland - constituted the Rzeczpospolita. This is something we, Poles should not disregard too easily. Some territories of Belarus and almost entire Ukraine were incorporated to the CoP after the Union of Lublin. Still, Kresy were never ethnically Polish, and the range of Polish culture and language was generally limited to the upper class (which was almost entirely Polish or polonized). The sad truth is that if there were not 17th September and all that mess, we would most likely lose the eastern territories anyway, because of the foolish policy towards Ruthenians (Pilsudski had a good idea of federation, though as we all know - it failed). In fact, we (along with Lithuanians and great aristocracy - which was ironically often of Ruthenian descent) have lost our chance in XVII century by keeping the Cossacks out of political rights - what happened in the following ages, was only a logical consequence of this mistake.
And I pretty much agree with Voerdeland - Silesia and Western Pomerania are not a bad compensation for the unerdeveloped East. Still, the way Soviets stripped us from Kresy was pretty outrageous - and they did not reveal to be a much better alternative to the locals than the Polish administration.
As for Vilnius - I was there a few times and what I have seen convinced me that we should all accept that Vilnius is no more a Polish city and it will most likely never be the one again. The same for Lvov. As for Pan-Slavism: I believe that Rzeczpospolita once had potential to bring this (or similar) idea to reality and that "our version" of Pan-Slavism could be really based on equality of nations. Well, what did not happen, did not happen, so I'll never know - and I can still believe :) .

True. In the Polish history books I've read, they always refer to it as the Commonwealth (prior to 1795). My Polish family lived in Ruthenia just west of L'wow. They had to leave and stay with relatives in Silesia. After the war, my Grandmother immigrated to Canada. My Grandfather, did the same after his division dispanded in 1946.
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Scooby Doo and Friends
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Postby Scooby Doo and Friends » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:The First Polish Army under the Byelorussian Front was able and ready to assist in the fighting in Warsaw, but was ordered by Soviet leadership to stop. 'They were tired' does not explain the urgency of the issue. To disagree is to lie outright.


Not really. The First Polish Army would've been successfully slaughtered if they decided to assist on their own, or were allowed to assist on their own. In order to launch a successful offensive one needed to heal the officer cadre, i.e. either provide treatment to the wounded, and ensure that they are ready and able to fight, or provide quality reinforcements, and selecting these took time. Then you had to bring up ammunition, tons of ammunition, and properly distribute it to the armies. Then you had to ensure that the tank armies were fully repaired and operational, and that the drivers were well trained, along with gunners and commanders.

You had to set up new air bases, and mask them. You had constant recon going on. You still had to evacuate the wounded soldiers, and bring up fresh reserves, and train them. You then had to coordinate artillery markings, coordinate the recon between the army and the air force, coordinate the battle plans between the fronts. Meanwhile the spies were extracting information from Nazis on where their strong points were, where their fire points were, etc. If the First Polish Army was sent in without all this preparation, they'd be slaughtered.


Uh, they managed to claim the Praga District of Warsaw without much support from the rest of the Red Army. The Armia Krajowa was fighting for three months without air support, artillery, or armor. The First Polish Army maintained many infantry divisions, an armored brigade, a cavalry brigade, at least four artillery brigades, and others. The Soviets waited until January to even move into the city. The Soviet Advance was halted by orders from the Kremlin only a few hours before Operation Tempest was begun, and oil supplies were stopped. You're giving bad reasons for the Kremlin's political objectives. Stalin wanted to make sure any independent Polish insurgency would be destroyed to ensure that the Soviets could establish a satellite state without being impeded. And lest we forget also the capturing and jailing of many Home Army soldiers by the Soviet Union under charges of fascism and cooperation with the Third Reich.

The Polish Air Force in exile, South African Air Force, Royal Air Force, and even the US Army Air Force managed to make several supply drops on different dates, yet the Soviets refused to even move an inch because they were 'tired'. Gawd.

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Bordurian
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Postby Bordurian » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:51 pm

Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:Some Polish blood here. After reading several books on the Polish-Soviet War following the First World War, Stalin's outright refusal to assist Polish insurgencies throughout the country to regain independence from the Third Reich, and the Soviet betrayal of Eastern Europe at large, I have come to know the way Russian governments have operated since the Tsardom have been wholly built on achieving hegemony.

From August to October in 1944, Operation Tempest, or what is more commonly referred to as the Warsaw Uprising commenced. The Polish Armia Krajowa (Home Army) fought alone and with almost no outside support against the Third Reich. Even as the Byelorussian Front of the Soviet military approached, they did very little to help their supposed allies. Great Britain and the United States alike wished to provide them with supplies on many occasions, however the Soviets forbade it. The Soviets did make a small number of 'drops', however these were done without parachutes and most of the goods were damaged or unusable. The British did manage to deliver by air a small number of specially trained commandos along with parts and blueprints for designing clandestine weapons, although it would prove fruitless. The Polish eventually surrendered after three months of heavy fighting while the Soviets waited at the Vistula. Once the Germans exited the city completely after it had been virtually obliterated, the 'liberating' communist army occupied what remained and officially established socialist rule in Poland.

Oh, and to this day the Russian Government denies any participation in the murder of well over a thousand Polish troops and officers in the Katyn Forest.

(Image)

I have no problem with the Russian people. Just their government.


The Uprising Museum in Warsaw is very moving. Churchill alledgedly broke down in tears one night after the Soviets didn't enter Warsaw and refused British pilots to land in their territory. It should've been Stalin who was arrested for collaboration with the Nazi's.
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Carmadin
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Postby Carmadin » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:56 pm

Shof, what country is that? While I never watch Synchronized Swimming, that's pretty impressive
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:20 pm

Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Not really. The First Polish Army would've been successfully slaughtered if they decided to assist on their own, or were allowed to assist on their own. In order to launch a successful offensive one needed to heal the officer cadre, i.e. either provide treatment to the wounded, and ensure that they are ready and able to fight, or provide quality reinforcements, and selecting these took time. Then you had to bring up ammunition, tons of ammunition, and properly distribute it to the armies. Then you had to ensure that the tank armies were fully repaired and operational, and that the drivers were well trained, along with gunners and commanders.

You had to set up new air bases, and mask them. You had constant recon going on. You still had to evacuate the wounded soldiers, and bring up fresh reserves, and train them. You then had to coordinate artillery markings, coordinate the recon between the army and the air force, coordinate the battle plans between the fronts. Meanwhile the spies were extracting information from Nazis on where their strong points were, where their fire points were, etc. If the First Polish Army was sent in without all this preparation, they'd be slaughtered.


Uh, they managed to claim the Praga District of Warsaw without much support from the rest of the Red Army. The Armia Krajowa was fighting for three months without air support, artillery, or armor. The First Polish Army maintained many infantry divisions, an armored brigade, a cavalry brigade, at least four artillery brigades, and others. The Soviets waited until January to even move into the city. The Soviet Advance was halted by orders from the Kremlin only a few hours before Operation Tempest was begun, and oil supplies were stopped. You're giving bad reasons for the Kremlin's political objectives. Stalin wanted to make sure any independent Polish insurgency would be destroyed to ensure that the Soviets could establish a satellite state without being impeded. And lest we forget also the capturing and jailing of many Home Army soldiers by the Soviet Union under charges of fascism and cooperation with the Third Reich.

The Polish Air Force in exile, South African Air Force, Royal Air Force, and even the US Army Air Force managed to make several supply drops on different dates, yet the Soviets refused to even move an inch because they were 'tired'. Gawd.


And what happened to the army that was fighting without air support, artillery or armor? It was crushed. In just 3 months. An armored brigade, a cavalry brigade, four arty brigades - that's not going to help sustain a WWII offensive, not when you need at least a tank army to do so. The reason that the Soviets waited till January, is because it took them that long to get replenished and resupplied. And FYI - in several other places, where the partisans first hit, and were later assisted by the Red Army, Stalin had no trouble creating a satellite state. The difference there is that the partisans actually coordinated with the Red Army, as best as they could, instead of going on a fame grab, and blaming the Red Army for their failure.

The Red Army destroyed an entire Nazi Army Group, something that was never done before - whereas neither of the fighting forces you list accomplished such a task. So yeah, after destroying an entire Nazi Army Group - and before confronting the next one, it makes sense to want to rest and resupply. What the Polish Home Army could've done, is that they could've waited for the Red Army to actually start charging into Warsaw, but no, they wanted all of the fame, when there was plenty of it to go around, and failed to coordinate, and were crushed.


Carmadin wrote:Shof, what country is that? While I never watch Synchronized Swimming, that's pretty impressive


Russia :D

I enjoy Synchronized Swimming, very beautiful and athletic girls in swimsuits doing complex acrobatic stunts while under water, where you can clearly see them, what's not to like?
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Bordurian
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Postby Bordurian » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:43 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:
Uh, they managed to claim the Praga District of Warsaw without much support from the rest of the Red Army. The Armia Krajowa was fighting for three months without air support, artillery, or armor. The First Polish Army maintained many infantry divisions, an armored brigade, a cavalry brigade, at least four artillery brigades, and others. The Soviets waited until January to even move into the city. The Soviet Advance was halted by orders from the Kremlin only a few hours before Operation Tempest was begun, and oil supplies were stopped. You're giving bad reasons for the Kremlin's political objectives. Stalin wanted to make sure any independent Polish insurgency would be destroyed to ensure that the Soviets could establish a satellite
state without being impeded. And lest we forget also the capturing and jailing of many Home Army soldiers by the Soviet Union under charges of fascism and cooperation with the Third Reich.

The Polish Air Force in exile, South African Air Force, Royal Air Force, and even the US Army Air Force managed to make several supply drops on different dates, yet the Soviets refused to even move an inch because they were 'tired'. Gawd.

And what happened to the army that was fighting without air support, artillery or armor? It was crushed. In just 3 months. An armored brigade, a cavalry brigade, four arty brigades - that's not going to help sustain a WWII offensive, not when you need at least a tank army to do so. The reason that the Soviets waited till January, is because it took them that long to get replenished and resupplied. And FYI - in several other places, where the partisans first hit, and were later assisted by the Red Army, Stalin had no trouble creating a satellite state. The difference there is that the partisans actually coordinated with the Red Army, as best as they could, instead of going on a fame grab, and blaming the Red Army for their failure.

The Red Army destroyed an entire Nazi Army Group, something that was never done before - whereas neither of the fighting forces you list accomplished such a task. So yeah, after destroying an entire Nazi Army Group - and before confronting the next one, it makes sense to want to rest and resupply. What the Polish Home Army could've done, is that they could've waited for the Red Army to actually start charging into Warsaw, but no, they wanted all of the fame, when there was plenty of it to go around, and failed to coordinate, and were crushed.
If I'm correct, the First Polish Armoured Division helped destroy the German Sixth Army at the Battle of Falaise.
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Carmadin
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Founded: Jul 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Carmadin » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:06 pm

Oh, and Shof, a suggestion for the OP, a list of us NS Slavs with nation page links, nationality, and any Slavic Languages we speak, just to keep track of who's who?

For the record, I'm Carmadin, I'm a Ukrainian, and I speak Ukrainian and a little Polska.
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Bordurian
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Posts: 3325
Founded: Mar 13, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Bordurian » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:07 pm

I'm Bordurian
I'm Polish
I speak Polish.
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Left -2.69
Authoritarian 3.45
[/floatleft]
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Bering
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Posts: 12708
Founded: Aug 25, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Bering » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:13 pm

I am so happy to have found a thread for us.
I am despite the name a Bosnian and supporter of pan-slavism
Last edited by Bering on Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Human Beings are humans, not property. Corporations, (Corporate Property), is property; it is not a human being. Once we understand these two simple concepts, we can move on as a society. - Shofercia

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Shofercia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27729
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:03 pm

Carmadin wrote:Oh, and Shof, a suggestion for the OP, a list of us NS Slavs with nation page links, nationality, and any Slavic Languages we speak, just to keep track of who's who?

For the record, I'm Carmadin, I'm a Ukrainian, and I speak Ukrainian and a little Polska.


What an excellent idea Carmadin!

Here's the form:

Nation Name:
Nation Link:
Nationality:
Your views on Pan-Slavism:
Your views on Slavic Countries:
Your views on Slavic Governments:
Languages that you speak:
Which country/state do you live in:
Where were you born:
Your favorite thing about Slavic Culture:
Favorite book/author/movie/music/etc:


And my results:

Nation Name: Shofercia (aka SHO, Shof, Shofe, Shufiy Shofer :P)
Nation Link: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=shofercia
Nationality: Russian!
Your views on Pan-Slavism: I love it!
Your views on Slavic Countries: Great places to party, have a great time, and engage in cultural exchanges ;)
Your views on Slavic Governments: I like Russia's :P (Don't hate on me :P)
Languages that you speak: English, Russian, a bit of Spanish
Which country/state do you live in: California, United States
Where were you born: Nizhniy Novgorod, USSR
Your favorite thing about Slavic Culture: No matter how much we fight, we'll always find a way to party like mad afterwards :P
Favorite Slavic book/author/movie/music/etc: Neznaika, Puhskin, (although Tolstoy right after Pushkin,) S legkim Parom ili Ironiya Sud'buy, Den Pobeduy, also serves as my Olympic Anthem so Carmadin prolly heard it :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrFKDXuQYh0

I'll update the OP for every 10 entries I get :D

You don't have to be Slavic to fill it out, just express an interest in Slavic Culture :D
Last edited by Shofercia on Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
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Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

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Shofercia
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Posts: 27729
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:06 pm

Bering wrote:I am so happy to have found a thread for us.
I am despite the name a Bosnian and supporter of pan-slavism


Welcome :D

How are you enjoying the thread so far?
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
WADA/IPC/IOC are begging Russia to form a strategic alliance with China. Perhaps it's time.
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

(North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia! DonBass is De Facto Independent! Stand with NovoRossiya!
Tecumseh was a Real American

User avatar
Bering
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12708
Founded: Aug 25, 2012
New York Times Democracy

Postby Bering » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:07 pm

Nation Name: Bering
Nation Link: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=bering
Nationality: Bosnian
Your views on Pan-Slavism: Firm supporter
Your views on Slavic Countries: Places with a rich history and culture with nice honest people
Your views on Slavic Governments: Some are better than others
Languages that you speak: English, Bosnian, a little German
Which country/state do you live in: Michigan, USA
Where were you born: Detroit (not raise their thankfully)
Your favorite thing about Slavic Culture: It's history and diversity

Edit I am enjoying it alot :) and could I borrow your "Human Beings are humans, not property. Corporations, (Corporate Property), is property; it is not a human being. Once we understand these two simple concepts, we can move on as a society." I really agree with it.
Last edited by Bering on Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Human Beings are humans, not property. Corporations, (Corporate Property), is property; it is not a human being. Once we understand these two simple concepts, we can move on as a society. - Shofercia

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Shofercia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27729
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:03 pm

Bering wrote:Nation Name: Bering
Nation Link: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=bering
Nationality: Bosnian
Your views on Pan-Slavism: Firm supporter
Your views on Slavic Countries: Places with a rich history and culture with nice honest people
Your views on Slavic Governments: Some are better than others
Languages that you speak: English, Bosnian, a little German
Which country/state do you live in: Michigan, USA
Where were you born: Detroit (not raise their thankfully)
Your favorite thing about Slavic Culture: It's history and diversity

Edit I am enjoying it alot :) and could I borrow your "Human Beings are humans, not property. Corporations, (Corporate Property), is property; it is not a human being. Once we understand these two simple concepts, we can move on as a society." I really agree with it.


Thank you for the statement :D

Go for it :D

Just add "- Shofercia" to the statement, and borrow away! I'll even do you one better - if you add "- Shofercia" to the end, you don't have to borrow it, you can have it :P
Last edited by Shofercia on Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ukraine - stop bombing innocent people! Pricks who burn other people alive should be punished.
WADA/IPC/IOC are begging Russia to form a strategic alliance with China. Perhaps it's time.
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

(North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia! DonBass is De Facto Independent! Stand with NovoRossiya!
Tecumseh was a Real American

User avatar
Scooby Doo and Friends
Attaché
 
Posts: 98
Founded: Aug 24, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Scooby Doo and Friends » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:15 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Scooby Doo and Friends wrote:
Uh, they managed to claim the Praga District of Warsaw without much support from the rest of the Red Army. The Armia Krajowa was fighting for three months without air support, artillery, or armor. The First Polish Army maintained many infantry divisions, an armored brigade, a cavalry brigade, at least four artillery brigades, and others. The Soviets waited until January to even move into the city. The Soviet Advance was halted by orders from the Kremlin only a few hours before Operation Tempest was begun, and oil supplies were stopped. You're giving bad reasons for the Kremlin's political objectives. Stalin wanted to make sure any independent Polish insurgency would be destroyed to ensure that the Soviets could establish a satellite state without being impeded. And lest we forget also the capturing and jailing of many Home Army soldiers by the Soviet Union under charges of fascism and cooperation with the Third Reich.

The Polish Air Force in exile, South African Air Force, Royal Air Force, and even the US Army Air Force managed to make several supply drops on different dates, yet the Soviets refused to even move an inch because they were 'tired'. Gawd.


And what happened to the army that was fighting without air support, artillery or armor? It was crushed. In just 3 months. An armored brigade, a cavalry brigade, four arty brigades - that's not going to help sustain a WWII offensive, not when you need at least a tank army to do so. The reason that the Soviets waited till January, is because it took them that long to get replenished and resupplied. And FYI - in several other places, where the partisans first hit, and were later assisted by the Red Army, Stalin had no trouble creating a satellite state. The difference there is that the partisans actually coordinated with the Red Army, as best as they could, instead of going on a fame grab, and blaming the Red Army for their failure.


It was crushed because the Soviets refused to play ball on anyone else's terms. Those 'several other places' you mention include cities like Lwow, where Home Army forces along with civil authorities were given the choice of conscription or labor camp sentencing. Or Wilno, where after fighting side by side Home Army soldiers were disarmed and imprisoned. Those who resisted were violently dealt with. Or perhaps you're familiar with the 27th Volhynian Division, which was given a (empty) promise by the Soviets for help when surrounded by the Germans in Kowel, managed to break through, and only then was reached by the Soviets. The NKVD sent their officers to Russia and forced the soldiers to join the Soviet-backed Polish Army. Remnants who were later found at locations previously captured by the Home Army were almost all arrested and sent to labor camps.


The Red Army destroyed an entire Nazi Army Group, something that was never done before - whereas neither of the fighting forces you list accomplished such a task. So yeah, after destroying an entire Nazi Army Group - and before confronting the next one, it makes sense to want to rest and resupply. What the Polish Home Army could've done, is that they could've waited for the Red Army to actually start charging into Warsaw, but no, they wanted all of the fame, when there was plenty of it to go around, and failed to coordinate, and were crushed.


You're right. All they wanted was fame. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that thousands of them were being butchered by the Third Reich and their countrymen couldn't stand to wait any longer.

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