[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[New haven america]

Secular law does not believe it is.
No one is asking anyone to abort if they don't want to.
It is possible to live your faith as your conscience dictates and let others live their own lives as their consciences dictate.

Why would I care what secular law believes if it is wrong?
Should I let murderers live their lives as their consciences dictate?

In essence, that makes Christianity analogous to cuckoo birds. They laid their beliefs and holidays over pre-existing religions' holidays and pushed the original beliefs out of the nest.

Because shepherds in the Middle East can tell you that lambing season is in the autumn (September through November), not December.

The holiday celebrated in Rome during December was called Saturnalia, in which a festival king was chosen, there were lots of parties, and toward the end of the holiday gifts were exchanged.

We can get mighty sidetracked in speaking of Eostre with her symbols of rabbit and egg, and Easter, as well, so I only mention it in passing.

What exactly does this have to do with my post about Christian social work being its big draw in ancient times?

Probably because you live in a secular society.

[United Muscovite Nations]

In essence, that makes Christianity analogous to cuckoo birds. They laid their beliefs and holidays over pre-existing religions' holidays and pushed the original beliefs out of the nest.

Because shepherds in the Middle East can tell you that lambing season is in the autumn (September through November), not December.

The holiday celebrated in Rome during December was called Saturnalia, in which a festival king was chosen, there were lots of parties, and toward the end of the holiday gifts were exchanged.

We can get mighty sidetracked in speaking of Eostre with her symbols of rabbit and egg, and Easter, as well, so I only mention it in passing.

What exactly does this have to do with my post about Christian social work being its big draw in ancient times?

It is in direct response to your own words. I've highlighted to make it easier to recall.

It's not though, it's not referencing a single thing I said, I'm referring to charity work and humanism.

[Katganistan]

It is in direct response to your own words. I've highlighted to make it easier to recall.

It's not though, it's not referencing a single thing I said, I'm referring to charity work and humanism.

I can link to where you actually did talk about how Julian used the organization of the pagan religion to make Christianity's spread more palatable. It's not that far back.

It's too bad the forum software makes such a dog's mess out of nested quotes to prevent the abuse of quote pyramids.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's not though, it's not referencing a single thing I said, I'm referring to charity work and humanism.

I can link to where you actually did talk about how Julian used the organization of the pagan religion to make Christianity's spread more palatable. It's not that far back.

It's too bad the forum software makes such a dog's mess out of nested quotes to prevent the abuse of quote pyramids.

That's the exact opposite of what I said.

[Katganistan]

Christianity adopted the pagan religious holidays' dates, did they not?
So which adapted to make itself more palatable?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Christianity adopted the pagan religious holidays' dates, did they not?
So which adapted to make itself more palatable?

It doesn't matter, it's not what I was talking about at all. Julian tried to reform Pagan social institutions to provide the same social services that Christian communities had because he saw that people were converting to Christianity for the community. He ultimately failed, but that's what Julian is famous for, is trying to adopt Christian social work into paganism.

[New haven america]

Christianity adopted the pagan religious holidays' dates, did they not?
So which adapted to make itself more palatable?

Kirk Cameron says that Christmas trees aren't pagan because they're actually crosses with pine needles on them.

[The Free Joy State]

Making something illegal does not remove the need for it.

Sure, but it does set a legal precedent. Tobacco is illegal in many restaurants, people still smoke in them. What do you do? You educate against why tobacco smoking will ruin your lungs and face and heart. You stop selling tobacco. You fight against big tobacco companies that want to push things like vaping and other e-cigs which have nicotine as well. I mean, no, the battle would not be over if we illegalized abortion, but it might shift the focus of pro-life organizations even more toward making abortion a less wantable option.

It hasn't in literally any country that ever made abortion illegal or heavily restricted.

Same number of abortions -- sometimes more, percentage-wise -- they're just not safe.

Considering we believe it's equal to infanticide, I don't know why you think this would be very convincing. "There's no need to stop murder and genocide, God will judge!"

Secular law does not believe it is.
No one is asking anyone to abort if they don't want to.
It is possible to live your faith as your conscience dictates and let others live their own lives as their consciences dictate.

^ This.

Anyone who asks the law to declare abortion murder for religious reasons (because their faith considers it infanticide) is asking people to live in accordance with their branch of their religion. Why not go the whole hog, and insist on a theocracy?

[Katganistan]

Christianity adopted the pagan religious holidays' dates, did they not?
So which adapted to make itself more palatable?

Kirk Cameron says that Christmas trees aren't pagan because they're actually crosses with pine needles on them.

He is entitled to his opinion although the evidence of one's own eyes might prove him wrong.

[Hanafuridake]

That makes no sense though. Christians are members of society. Unless you're saying that they ought to disenfranchise themselves, why are they going to ignore what they see as an important moral issue?

Because it is literally none of their business what goes on in other people's private lives, and they would be rightfully upset and angry should other people say, "Christianity is now banned. You must attend services at the church of Bezos, and now become Amazonians. We forced that law through because it is our dearly held belief that one should be able to get one's sticky notes in less than two days, Praise Prime."

Abortion affects society as a whole and there's a major difference between limiting abortion because you believe a fetus to have inherent dignity and banning a religion.

[New haven america]

Kirk Cameron says that Christmas trees aren't pagan because they're actually crosses with pine needles on them.

He is entitled to his opinion although the evidence of one's own eyes might prove him wrong.

But he made an entire movie to tell us this message!

[The Free Joy State]

He is entitled to his opinion although the evidence of one's own eyes might prove him wrong.

But he made an entire movie to tell us this message!

People make movies to push all kinds of questionable religious messages.

*sideways glance at Battlefield Earth*

Because it is literally none of their business what goes on in other people's private lives, and they would be rightfully upset and angry should other people say, "Christianity is now banned. You must attend services at the church of Bezos, and now become Amazonians. We forced that law through because it is our dearly held belief that one should be able to get one's sticky notes in less than two days, Praise Prime."

Abortion affects society as a whole and there's a major difference between limiting abortion because you believe a fetus to have inherent dignity and banning a religion.

A better comparison is to be made with compelled pregnancy and compelled religion (the compelled act is the angle to look at it from; remaining pregnant and having to attend another faith) -- both designed to force an individual to sublimate their wishes, will, beliefs and desires and so alter their life because another individual believes the alternative "a sin".

But let's latch onto your first point. How does a woman's abortion impact wider society at all? An irreligious answer would be nice.

[Narinoland]

Bump UvU

[Ransium]

Bump UvU

Please review the OSRS with regards to bumping:

Excessive Bumping: Bumping is adding a meaningless (*bump*) post to a thread to push it back to the top of the list. Bump rates vary between forums, but as a rule, once every 24 hours is the maximum outside General or II where it may be acceptable to bump any thread that has fallen past the first two pages. If the bulk of your posts, or posts in the thread are bumps, you should take it to mean that there is not enough in your topic, and let it end.

Thanks.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

And when that does nothing? What do you anti choicers do after you make abortion illegal, and pregnant people are still getting abortions? What do you do when you have higher suicide rates, skyrocketing maternal death rates, widespread suffering from infections and permanent loss of fertility, and there are still just as many abortions happening?

How do you know it will do nothing? You don't. You can always try to lower the risk factors that cause people to get abortions, such as poverty. But I mean, how many times have we been through this? Shoot, OP even made it a poll to talk about how to lower abortions, but when lowering abortions gets brought-up it feels like some of ya'll don't really want to.

You clearly don't know my stance. I want practically no abortions to happen. Every prochoicer on here, with the exception of a couple edgelords, wants abortions to be functionally non-existent.

And we know that banning abortion does nothing because it's been done time and time again. People have died and are dying en masse. You cannot ban abortions without causing countless deaths, unless you physically imprison anyone who is pregnant.

You want to lower the rate of abortions? Free contraceptives and barrier methods available literally everywhere. Heavy pushes for LARCs. Mandatory comprehensive sex education starting in elementary school, and no you don't get a pass for home schooling. Universal healthcare. Subsidies for childcare. Paid maternity AND parental leave of AT MINIMUM two months, preferably six months or more. Better training for OBGYN and midwives because assault during birth is so ubiquitous it's insane. Better access to mental health care. Better options for schooling for working mother's. Better safety net over all for teen mothers. Better pay overall - if someone is working 40 hours a week, they should be able to support themselves and children without struggle no matter where they work. Come down HARD on any employer, manager, boss, whatever who discriminates against pregnant women.

And even if you do ALL OF THESE THINGS, abortion will still happen because to err is human. And even one pregnant person dying from clandestine abortion is too fucking many.

[Wallenburg]

Because it is literally none of their business what goes on in other people's private lives, and they would be rightfully upset and angry should other people say, "Christianity is now banned. You must attend services at the church of Bezos, and now become Amazonians. We forced that law through because it is our dearly held belief that one should be able to get one's sticky notes in less than two days, Praise Prime."

Abortion affects society as a whole and there's a major difference between limiting abortion because you believe a fetus to have inherent dignity and banning a religion.

This is true. One is a violation of the right to bodily sovereignty, and another is a violation of the right to free expression and association.

[The Free Joy State]

And when that does nothing? What do you anti choicers do after you make abortion illegal, and pregnant people are still getting abortions? What do you do when you have higher suicide rates, skyrocketing maternal death rates, widespread suffering from infections and permanent loss of fertility, and there are still just as many abortions happening?

How do you know it will do nothing? You don't. You can always try to lower the risk factors that cause people to get abortions, such as poverty. But I mean, how many times have we been through this? Shoot, OP even made it a poll to talk about how to lower abortions, but when lowering abortions gets brought-up it feels like some of ya'll don't really want to.

We've all talked many times about ways to lower the numbers of abortions. Most pro-choicers would like there to be fewer abortions; abortions are something we see -- in the main -- as something unfortunately necessary, not something we like.

Stagnant Axion Terminal listed a whole bunch of things that are known to reduce the numbers of abortions. In the UK, distributing free contraception and mandating comprehensive sex education alone have led to the lowest rate of teen pregnancy since the 60s (half what they were 20 years ago).

Many pro-choicers will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with any pro-lifer who supports those methods of lowering abortion. We just won't support banning abortion, because it won't achieve that aim and puts women at unnecessary risk.

[Attempted Socialism]

Secular law does not believe it is.
No one is asking anyone to abort if they don't want to.
It is possible to live your faith as your conscience dictates and let others live their own lives as their consciences dictate.

Why would I care what secular law believes if it is wrong?
Should I let murderers live their lives as their consciences dictate?

The difference here is that secular society weighed the evidence on abortion (Mandated under certain circumstances in the Bible) and find it OK and not society-harming under most circumstances, while killing people (Also regularly mandated in the Bible) is wrong for a variety of reasons, thus we made it illegal in most circumstances.

[The New California Republic]

It's getting a tad annoying that this thread is verging on becoming a pseudo-spinoff of the CDT; hence my relative lack of activity here as of late.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

It's getting a tad annoying that this thread is verging on becoming a pseudo-spinoff of the CDT; hence my relative lack of activity here as of late.

Lmao agree. Maybe we've run out of things to say about abortion.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

It wouldn't do that. All it would do is create a whole lot more resentful mothers with unwanted children for no appreciable benefit other than the existence of those children.
Also, tobacco actually harms people. Abortions don't, unless of course you're referring specifically to the back-alley abortions women will resort to if you ban the safe methods.

Do you wanna lower abortions? Then you lower abortions.

And what if I say that I don't want to lower abortions, and I base my arguments on the belief that pregnant women should be allowed to make their own decisions instead of a bunch of old, intolerant, possibly dead priests making that decision for them?

[The New California Republic]

It's getting a tad annoying that this thread is verging on becoming a pseudo-spinoff of the CDT; hence my relative lack of activity here as of late.

Lmao agree. Maybe we've run out of things to say about abortion.

Tbh that kinda happens anyway a lot of the time, as the tendency is for a new person (the nation is usually a few weeks old at most) to come into the thread saying pretty much the same arguments that have been said by others before them, and we all get into a back and forth for a few dozen pages over the same old oft-repeated shite such as: the person treating pregnancy as punishment for sex; they repeatedly call the fetus a "child" or a "baby"; they say the fetus is a person and yet give little evidence to actually back that up; they repeatedly call abortion "murder" despite being shown evidence in law that it is not; they propose all sorts of weird draconian punishments and deterrents for abortion such as playing sounds of children laughing in all abortion clinics; they appeal to concepts like "God" and "souls" which unleashes a shitstorm of arguments and counterarguments regarding said concepts; etc.

[Thepeopl]

The idea that god will punish people who destroy his creations when he makes the process of creating it both instinctively desirable and the actual conception imperfectly manageable sounds like a whole lot of entrapment.

If god is omniscient and omnipotent and still chose the entrapment option in the Grand Design, he bears a whole lot more culpability for abortions than the women who get them do.

It's because of The Original Sin.

God punished humans for it by making sex super fun and enjoyable, but can only be done under very specific circumstances and in certain ways (Or else your going to Hell for it), while also making pregnancy as miserable as possible in order to punish women specifically for Eve picking the Forbidden Fruit.

You clearly haven't had a normal, healthy pregnancy.

Yes it has its dangers, yes it has its inconveniences.
You will experience back pain, belly pain, the urge to pee every 5 seconds (exaggerating)
You'll grow heavy, retain fluids and get clumsy.
But also, your eyesight, sense of smell and taste improve.
Your feet can grow in size.
Your hair will stay in your scalp, will glow more lush, your skin will become radiant. (After birth, you lose all those extra retained hair, you'll look haggard because of the lack of sleep, exhaustion and blood loss. )
Your sexdrive will pickup in second term
You will feel a baby grow and move inside you, whose personality you can discern in the womb. It is a really funny feeling when the feutus has the hiccups.
Many women do enjoy pregnancy, and really want to have children.
Giving birth to a child isn't horrible as long as you are relaxed and safe.
If you have heavy cramps during menstruation, you already know how contractions feel.
Constipation is worse than giving birth. (Again, if you are relaxed, warm and safe)
Giving birth can be a very intimate experience for both partners.
The image tv shows about pregnancy and birth is very different from reality for most women. And ofcourse some women will experience some aspects just as the tv shows.

BUT this is only the case WHEN both partners agree in having a child together, or in some cases when the woman alone really wants this child.

If you want to have children, you should stop drinking alcohol at least 4 months before getting pregnant, also stop smoking. Start taking folic acid supplements, especially for pregnancy. Live healthy, eat healthy.

During pregnancy, the woman cannot eat raw meat, raw milk cheeses, cannot clean the cat litter, should only work with earth with gloves on. Should exercise moderately, eat healthy.
Some women can't eat citrus fruits, can't drink coffee, tea or soda. Thinks you normally like, taste awful all of a sudden.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

It's because of The Original Sin.

God punished humans for it by making sex super fun and enjoyable, but can only be done under very specific circumstances and in certain ways (Or else your going to Hell for it), while also making pregnancy as miserable as possible in order to punish women specifically for Eve picking the Forbidden Fruit.

You clearly haven't had a normal, healthy pregnancy.

Yes it has its dangers, yes it has its inconveniences.
You will experience back pain, belly pain, the urge to pee every 5 seconds (exaggerating)
You'll grow heavy, retain fluids and get clumsy.
But also, your eyesight, sense of smell and taste improve.
Your feet can grow in size.
Your hair will stay in your scalp, will glow more lush, your skin will become radiant. (After birth, you lose all those extra retained hair, you'll look haggard because of the lack of sleep, exhaustion and blood loss. )
Your sexdrive will pickup in second term
You will feel a baby grow and move inside you, whose personality you can discern in the womb. It is a really funny feeling when the feutus has the hiccups.
Many women do enjoy pregnancy, and really want to have children.
Giving birth to a child isn't horrible as long as you are relaxed and safe.
If you have heavy cramps during menstruation, you already know how contractions feel.
Constipation is worse than giving birth. (Again, if you are relaxed, warm and safe)
Giving birth can be a very intimate experience for both partners.
The image tv shows about pregnancy and birth is very different from reality for most women. And ofcourse some women will experience some aspects just as the tv shows.

BUT this is only the case WHEN both partners agree in having a child together, or in some cases when the woman alone really wants this child.

If you want to have children, you should stop drinking alcohol at least 4 months before getting pregnant, also stop smoking. Start taking folic acid supplements, especially for pregnancy. Live healthy, eat healthy.

During pregnancy, the woman cannot eat raw meat, raw milk cheeses, cannot clean the cat litter, should only work with earth with gloves on. Should exercise moderately, eat healthy.
Some women can't eat citrus fruits, can't drink coffee, tea or soda. Thinks you normally like, taste awful all of a sudden.

How many times have you been pregnant?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Do you wanna lower abortions? Then you lower abortions.

And what if I say that I don't want to lower abortions, and I base my arguments on the belief that pregnant women should be allowed to make their own decisions instead of a bunch of old, intolerant, possibly dead priests making that decision for them?

You can want.... Both things