[Abortion][REVISED POLL] If you had the power...

[Ifreann]

I like that you ignored everything else I said. But anyway, yes, we have an anti-abortion amendment in our constitution, for now. It doesn't actually say "No abortions" or anything like that. It says that the government must give equal recognition to the right to life of the unborn as to the right to life of the mother. The movement calling for its repeal is substantial. We'll probably be rid of it within a few years.

I thought they were reforming it, not repealing it?

Yeah, I think some of the government wants to amend the 8th or something like that.

---

Keshiland, do you actually know what goes on in Ireland in relation to abortion? Have you done any research at all? Are you aware of the horrific cases that the anti-abortion laws in Ireland have caused? Look at the cases of Whelan v Ireland, Mellet v Ireland, PP v HSE, Savita Halappanavar, Miss D, D v Ireland, C Case, and X Case. Educate yourself before saying that The United States needs the same laws as Ireland in relation to abortion.

Well looking at the Irish Constitution they have some truly fighting amendments. Like what the duck is this

Family and home life: Under Article 41.1 the state promises to "protect the Family", and recognises the family as having "inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law". Under Article 41.2 the state is required to ensure that "economic necessity" does not oblige a mother "to engage in labour to the neglect of [her] duties in the home". Article 41.3 sets out conditions that must be fulfilled before a court may grant a divorce, including that adequate financial provision has been made for both spouses and any of their children.

Did they really just say that mothers can not work outside the home?

No.

[NeuPolska]

Ok maybe we should talk about something else besides the constant bodily sovereignty vs. sanctity of unborn life arguing, namely, what about in cases when a woman deceives a man or outright rapes a man in order to become pregnant? Is it still her choice, or can she be forced to have an abortion because it was rape? Currently as far as I know the man would have to pay child support regardless, and the woman gets to have her baby.

Forcing an abortion sounds horrible though, and while I understand that child support is meant for the child's well-being, why make the victim of a rape pay for the outcome?

[Keshiland]

Ok maybe we should talk about something else besides the constant bodily sovereignty vs. sanctity of unborn life arguing, namely, what about in cases when a woman deceives a man or outright rapes a man in order to become pregnant? Is it still her choice, or can she be forced to have an abortion because it was rape? Currently as far as I know the man would have to pay child support regardless, and the woman gets to have her baby.

Forcing an abortion sounds horrible though, and while I understand that child support is meant for the child's well-being, why make the victim of a rape pay for the outcome?

GTHO about women raping men. If he was stupid and got minipulated into thinking she was on birth control that's on him. He needs to man up and be a father.

[Vassenor]

Ok maybe we should talk about something else besides the constant bodily sovereignty vs. sanctity of unborn life arguing, namely, what about in cases when a woman deceives a man or outright rapes a man in order to become pregnant? Is it still her choice, or can she be forced to have an abortion because it was rape? Currently as far as I know the man would have to pay child support regardless, and the woman gets to have her baby.

Forcing an abortion sounds horrible though, and while I understand that child support is meant for the child's well-being, why make the victim of a rape pay for the outcome?

GTHO about women raping men. If he was stupid and got minipulated into thinking she was on birth control that's on him. He needs to man up and be a father.

...Wow that's even more reductive than the idea that emotional abuse is the answer to women wanting abortion.

[NeuPolska]

Ok maybe we should talk about something else besides the constant bodily sovereignty vs. sanctity of unborn life arguing, namely, what about in cases when a woman deceives a man or outright rapes a man in order to become pregnant? Is it still her choice, or can she be forced to have an abortion because it was rape? Currently as far as I know the man would have to pay child support regardless, and the woman gets to have her baby.

Forcing an abortion sounds horrible though, and while I understand that child support is meant for the child's well-being, why make the victim of a rape pay for the outcome?

GTHO about women raping men. If he was stupid and got minipulated into thinking she was on birth control that's on him. He needs to man up and be a father.

That's not the only way it can happen. What if he gets drugged? Bound to a bed or chair? Forced at gunpoint or knifepoint? Or told to do it or else she'll cry "rape" herself and get him thrown in prison?

[Keshiland]

GTHO about women raping men. If he was stupid and got minipulated into thinking she was on birth control that's on him. He needs to man up and be a father.

That's not the only way it can happen. What if he gets drugged? Bound to a bed or chair? Forced at gunpoint or knifepoint? Or told to do it or else she'll cry "rape" herself and get him thrown in prison?

Life sounds so hard for wannabe victims. I have never heard a forced female male rape story ever. For the 1 in 1M let him relinquish his duties

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

That's not the only way it can happen. What if he gets drugged? Bound to a bed or chair? Forced at gunpoint or knifepoint? Or told to do it or else she'll cry "rape" herself and get him thrown in prison?

Life sounds so hard for wannabe victims. I have never heard a forced female male rape story ever. For the 1 in 1M let him relinquish his duties

Oh just you wait when Gallo finds this.

[Ifreann]

Ok maybe we should talk about something else besides the constant bodily sovereignty vs. sanctity of unborn life arguing, namely, what about in cases when a woman deceives a man or outright rapes a man in order to become pregnant? Is it still her choice,

Yes.

or can she be forced to have an abortion because it was rape?

No.

Currently as far as I know the man would have to pay child support regardless, and the woman gets to have her baby.

Forcing an abortion sounds horrible though, and while I understand that child support is meant for the child's well-being, why make the victim of a rape pay for the outcome?

A better question is what this has to do with the topic of the thread, i.e. abortion. If you want to talk about child support payments, start a thread about child support payments.

[NeuPolska]

That's not the only way it can happen. What if he gets drugged? Bound to a bed or chair? Forced at gunpoint or knifepoint? Or told to do it or else she'll cry "rape" herself and get him thrown in prison?

Life sounds so hard for wannabe victims. I have never heard a forced female male rape story ever. For the 1 in 1M let him relinquish his duties

A simple google search brings up this news article

Now you've heard one.

[Katganistan]

This is a debate forum, be prepared to defend your statements. If you do not wish to debate, forum 7 or any of the actual gameplay forums may better suit your preference.

Well I mean technically this thread is supposed to be about what you would do with abortion if you ruled the US as an unquestioned autocrat. I guess that means Sailence is the only one doing it right rn.

Oh also sorry for being facetious earlier. Thank you for stopping being so belligerent.

It is not in any way a roleplay forum. So people speaking as if from the point of view of their imaginary nation are absolutely not doing it right rn, thanks.

[Ifreann]

GTHO about women raping men. If he was stupid and got minipulated into thinking she was on birth control that's on him. He needs to man up and be a father.

That's not the only way it can happen. What if he gets drugged? Bound to a bed or chair? Forced at gunpoint or knifepoint? Or told to do it or else she'll cry "rape" herself and get him thrown in prison?

Unless this hypothetical man gets pregnant, which is pretty unlikely, his plight is not relevant to this thread.

[NeuPolska]

Ok maybe we should talk about something else besides the constant bodily sovereignty vs. sanctity of unborn life arguing, namely, what about in cases when a woman deceives a man or outright rapes a man in order to become pregnant? Is it still her choice,

Yes.

or can she be forced to have an abortion because it was rape?

No.

Currently as far as I know the man would have to pay child support regardless, and the woman gets to have her baby.

Forcing an abortion sounds horrible though, and while I understand that child support is meant for the child's well-being, why make the victim of a rape pay for the outcome?

A better question is what this has to do with the topic of the thread, i.e. abortion. If you want to talk about child support payments, start a thread about child support payments.

I know I brought up child support, but the rest of my post was intended to bring up the whole "abortion is okay in circumstances of rape" argument but flipped. My apologies if this was not clear. Since I couldn't justify forcing an abortion, I proposed the child support thing as an alternative, but my intention was to bring up the topic of male rape by women and pregnancy.

[Genivaria]

Yes.

No.

A better question is what this has to do with the topic of the thread, i.e. abortion. If you want to talk about child support payments, start a thread about child support payments.

I know I brought up child support, but the rest of my post was intended to bring up the whole "abortion is okay in circumstances of rape" argument but flipped. My apologies if this was not clear. Since I couldn't justify forcing an abortion, I proposed the child support thing as an alternative, but my intention was to bring up the topic of male rape by women and pregnancy.

If the man is raped I think the woman will have a hard time getting the court to make him pay for it.

[Neutraligon]

I know I brought up child support, but the rest of my post was intended to bring up the whole "abortion is okay in circumstances of rape" argument but flipped. My apologies if this was not clear. Since I couldn't justify forcing an abortion, I proposed the child support thing as an alternative, but my intention was to bring up the topic of male rape by women and pregnancy.

If the man is raped I think the woman will have a hard time getting the court to make him pay for it.

I wish that where true, but there have been cases where he has had to pay for child support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1927767

[Katganistan]

We disagree on everything including watching someone betray their family to ease the burden of keeping them alive and paying for their healthcare (which is why most European nations have public healthcare to avoid this motive to pull the plug).

That's not why most European nations have public healthcare, and people in European nations still sometimes decide to pull the plug.

Agreed, Neanderthaland. Anybody remember Charlie Gard? on whom the plug was pulled by European healthcare explicitly against the pleas of his parents?

I don't think we really want to talk about European healthcare and pulling the plug as an argument point in this thread. That example alone certainly doesn't support Sailence's argument.

[Genivaria]

If the man is raped I think the woman will have a hard time getting the court to make him pay for it.

I wish that where true, but there have been cases where he has had to pay for child support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer

What the actual fuck...

[Ifreann]

Yes.

No.

A better question is what this has to do with the topic of the thread, i.e. abortion. If you want to talk about child support payments, start a thread about child support payments.

I know I brought up child support, but the rest of my post was intended to bring up the whole "abortion is okay in circumstances of rape" argument but flipped. My apologies if this was not clear. Since I couldn't justify forcing an abortion, I proposed the child support thing as an alternative, but my intention was to bring up the topic of male rape by women and pregnancy.

Well, in the situation that a woman becomes pregnant by raping a man, I would be of the position that she retains her right to bodily sovereignty. If she wants to remain pregnant, she remains pregnant. If she wants an abortion, she can have an abortion.

[Neutraligon]

I wish that where true, but there have been cases where he has had to pay for child support.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer

What the actual fuck...

Yep, victims of statutory rape have been forced to pay child support. I seem to recall a full on male rape victim (as in two adults) also was forced to pay but can't find the article. Yeah...the court system when it comes to male rape victims suck. One of those legal issues MRAs can point to as being just pure shit.

[Tananat]

The alternative for abortion, not having sex or adoption.

Are you willing to adopt 10 unwanted babies? 20? Would you be ok with the state billeted unwanted children in people's homes?

Because even using the most generous of estimates, replacing abortion with adoption will add millions of children to the care system in half a decade.

[Katganistan]

Having the right to do something does not make it moral. Doing something because you have the right to do it does not make your moral. If you kill a human life for any reason other than saving your own life then you are just as bad as any murderer alive today.

How did we get to the point where people said, you know what, you can have all the sex you want and if you get pregnant just kill it if you don't want the child. WTH? What happened to taking responsibility?

Its really disgusting that people who get abortion are protected by doctor patient confidentiality, they should at least have the info on who killed there offspring on a data base like the sex offender registry. Can't handle the social ridicule don't have an abortion.

Guys if you have a girlfriend/wife who is thinking about aborting the child tell all her and your family and friends that you guys are expecting and put the spot lite on her.
Parents if your daughter or son is or is pressuring someone into aborting threaten disownment and have the papers ready to show them that, that action crosses the line.

Girls if you have a boyfriend/Husband that is pressuring you into having an abortion tell everyone they know and that you know that your expecting to put the spot light on them if they try to run away.

Its time for society to step up and end this gross practice.

No, it is time to stop pretending that women are not human beings, and recognize that as humans they have a right to determine their fate and to ownership of their bodies. It's time to stop pretending that any human has the authority to force another to bear a child simply as a punishment for becoming pregant, and to stop pretending that they and their doctors cannot decide that a pregnancy is too dangerous/too much of an undue burden to continue because of a third party's insistence.

It is time to stop pretending that this is anything other than power and revenge fantasies when the argument revolves around punishment, humiliation, and emotional abuse. It's frankly disturbing to read that anyone believes that they are at all appropriate to use in a civilized society, and I would seriously fear for the well-being of anyone associated with someone who could espouse such things.

Women have died because they were shamed into not aborting even in the face of obvious health risks. But clearly you don't care about that.

Thats tragic but they should have gone and done what they needed to do abort to save their life.

Yet you'd have them being shamed and humiliated and emotionally abused under your utopian system? But it's their fault if they die because they don't abort in the face of those horrific policies?

Then admit that really, the only point of your ideas is to shame, abuse, and humiliate.

[The New California Republic]

No, it is time to stop pretending that women are not human beings, and recognize that as humans they have a right to determine their fate and to ownership of their bodies. It's time to stop pretending that any human has the authority to force another to bear a child simply as a punishment for becoming pregant, and to stop pretending that they and their doctors cannot decide that a pregnancy is too dangerous/too much of an undue burden to continue because of a third party's insistence.

It is time to stop pretending that this is anything other than power and revenge fantasies when the argument revolves around punishment, humiliation, and emotional abuse. It's frankly disturbing to read that anyone believes that they are at all appropriate to use in a civilized society, and I would seriously fear for the well-being of anyone associated with someone who could espouse such things.

This. The punishment of, and power over, women seems to be a constant thread that runs through all of Keshiland's suggestions here. Every suggestion that he makes always has an air of punishment about it. And not just ordinary punishment either, sadistic vengeful punishment. I think that punishment of women is the real goal here, prevention of abortion is just a convenient excuse. If there hadn't been that excuse, I'm sure another excuse would have been found...

[Katganistan]

Plus this is still on the "women should be subjected to abuse until they conform" level of stuff.

No its not. Having a sound track of crying or screaming or mommy calling babies in an abortion clinic is not abuse. It is simply a harmless deterrent. No one is getting beat. You really should stop using the seriousness of real abuse to win an argument.

So if for example someone were to organize a group of people that would follow you to your school/place of work and yell out insults, embarrassing statements, and the things you've written on this site, in public, for however long you were inside, that would be ok? Because you're not actually being beaten, you're just being called out on what you've said/the mistakes you've made/your appearance/any awkward moments you've experienced all day long?

Please think about what you're saying.

[Thermodolia]

Plus this is still on the "women should be subjected to abuse until they conform" level of stuff.

No its not. Having a sound track of crying or screaming or mommy calling babies in an abortion clinic is not abuse. It is simply a harmless deterrent. No one is getting beat. You really should stop using the seriousness of real abuse to win an argument.

Actually babies crying is even more of a reason to get an abortion

[Thermodolia]

So yes, women should be subjected to abuse until they conform to your morality.

Its not ducking abuse. You know you're on the wrong side morally so you throw around words like rape and abuse. If someone is not strong enough to carry on with the abortion because their family/friends know about it or because of baby noises then they never really wanted it in the 1st place.

Um ya it is. As someone who suffered emotional and psychological abuse growing up what you are proposing is 100% abuse

[Katganistan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_blackmail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_abuse

Abuse doesn't have to be physical.

Is it underhanded yes, Is it cheap yes, is it abusing no. It starts when they enter the clinic and stops when they exit it.

Clearly you read none of those links. It is abuse by definition.

Its not ducking abuse. You know you're on the wrong side morally so you throw around words like rape and abuse. If someone is not strong enough to carry on with the abortion because their family/friends know about it or because of baby noises then they never really wanted it in the 1st place.

Look man, I'm pro-life, but even I think that it's emotional and psychological abuse. You simply cannot guilt trip somebody into carrying their unborn child, cause that'll lead the mother down the dark road of depression and could even lead to suicide killing both the mother and child.

Thank you.