Antifa listed as a terrorist organisation in New Jersey

[Danceria]

They're hard left hooligans who want to start shit with practically everyone that's right of Bernie Sanders. While they might not be ISIS inspired, that doesn't excuse their bullshit.

Ah, using the USA as your political norm. There's your problem. Let's start with the fact Bernie is not even that popular among the far-left. He is socdem at best. Secondly, antifa exists outside of America and not all they do is what you claim them to do as such. I think they need more insurrectionary and prefigurativist focus, but I don't think they are the worst thing in the world, and comparing them to ISIS and Nazis is hilariously pathetic.

But let's first and foremost figure out what precisely defines a "terrorist organization", and see how many things that Antifa that is similar. Feel free to prep thy strawmans, fallacies, and totally not edited wikipedia articles sources. Give me a moment whilst I find a few definitions of "terrorist organization".

[Nulla Bellum]

We declare war against socialism, not because it is socialism, but because it has opposed nationalism. Although we can discuss the question of what socialism is, what is its program, and what are its tactics, one thing is obvious: the official Italian Socialist Party has been reactionary and absolutely conservative. If its views had prevailed, our survival in the world of today would be impossible." - Benito Mussolini

One could argue in the case of Mussolini that his conception of Fascism opposed Socialism because it wasn't left-wing enough. Keep in mind that most of the framers of Fascist ideology (Sorel, Mussolini, Strasser, etc.) were themselves former socialists / communists / syndicalists who became disenchanted with Marxism and in particular the October Revolution in Russia after Lenin consolidated his power. The doctrines of political violence that are part and parcel of Fascist thought spring directly out of the influences drawn and terrorist / propaganda of the deed ideology found in Mikhail Bukanin's revolutionary anarchist writings. And who can argue that Maximillien Robespierre, the man who made leftism a thing in the French Revolution, wasn't himself a proto-fascist? To say Fascism is an offshoot of Socialism isn't really so much a critique of Socialism so much as it is a historical reality that Fascism was founded by pissed off socialists / leftists.

Yes, that's why it has private property, ardent nationalism (whereas socialism supports internationalism), class collaboration (corporatism, rather than workers ownership) and is wholly totalitarian (in the fascist sense). Tbh, it can't really be classified as right or left wing, as it's a wholly different beast altogether. But there's no way in Hell that a government that allows private property is socialist, in any way.

I'd rather point out the ideological equivalent of retarded babies which result when lifelong leftists say fuck it and become rightists. Mussolini's departure from socialism to third way / fascism, the ex-Trotskyists that became American neo-conservatives, Donald Trump's limosuine liberal support for Democrats to the "alt-right."

It's like drunk karaoke. With bombs. Lots of bombs.

[Danceria]

According to the website "Synonym(dot)net", Terrorism is defined as "a political movement that uses terror as a weapon to achieve its goals". The website continues to describe Terrorist Groups as "Any number of terrorists who assemble together, have a unifying relationship, or are organized for the purpose of committing an act or acts of violence or threatens violence in pursuit of their political, religious, or ideological objectives.". An individual terrorist is someone who partakes in "the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear" ("the free dictionary (dot) com" for source and definition). I am going to extend that definition of "terrorist" to anyone who supports the use of terror as a means of sociopolitical change, not simply the resident Molotov tosser. If this seems like an unfair stretch of the definition, feel free to provide evidence as to why, and provide an alternative.

As for actual examples and checklists to follow, the American Federal Bureau of Investigation provides several examples of means taken, and preexisting means of stopping and/or monitoring terrorist threats. Not to mention the Activist Rights (dot) org (dot) au has an actual checklist of things that make up a terrorist organizations. Any and all extra means of information to find a consensus is appreciated.

Edit: 88 Proofs and 99 Theses, Donut Removal.

[Danceria]

Part the third: Inherint biases and bullshit:
I myself am a self-described rightist, who often laughs and is disdainful of ANTIFA. I hold many conservative viewpoints, and they are unlikely to be changed. Has there been violence done on Antifa's part? Yes. Have they exhibited public abuse of windows, poles, and trash cans? Indeed. Do I really give a damn about them at the end of the day/am afraid of them? Nah. Will I defend myself both in argument and physical encounters? To the best of my abilities.

Also: I don't know everything, and nobody does. So let's just look at it from a rather objective standpoint on this question: Is Antifa a Terrorist Group based upon these criteria?

[Nulla Bellum]

Libertarians like me can live with a government that can't govern at all if we can't get a government that can't govern much

The issue is the current government has a sway over how we live and interact. Hardly libertarian as of now.

Stuck in commitee is almost as good as not governing at all. I honestly don't think Trump will accomplish much of his largely already abandoned agenda with his two year window of opportunity. That is, of course assuming Democrats get their shit together.

[Mattopilos II]

Ah, using the USA as your political norm. There's your problem. Let's start with the fact Bernie is not even that popular among the far-left. He is socdem at best. Secondly, antifa exists outside of America and not all they do is what you claim them to do as such. I think they need more insurrectionary and prefigurativist focus, but I don't think they are the worst thing in the world, and comparing them to ISIS and Nazis is hilariously pathetic.

Where did I talk about the USA as my political norm? If anything that'd make them even worse, considering they'd also hate moderates and liberals as well.

No, Antifa is a stupid group of stupid, spoiled people. Their dreams of "insurrection" and "resistance" is frankly cute.

The moment you mentioned Bernie Sanders. And I hate moderates and liberals as well for the most part - I find them complacent and far too reliant on the system they are trying to change.

I don't see how they are "spoiled". And I don't see how their dreams are "cute". But hey, why read what I wrote when you can fill in your own gaps. Its easier and gets what you want.

...

The gish galloping is real. Lets start with the fact you used THREE POSTS to write what you did... why?
Let's also mention you say the same thing multiple times - "I used a dictionary therefore this is what it means". Yes, you didn't need 10 different sources to show that. They tend to be pretty consistent, since they focus on common usage of a term.

Should I mention the fact you muddy the water even before I decide to even rebut you? Why should I bother, honestly, when the moment I step in you are already expecting I am wrong, and that everything I say will be a fallacy, a lie, a fake? You have already made up your mind before entering this post, which you yourself have made known. Clearly you have a view that others have, and that other people will disagree with. That, and I simply don't care what people class them as - it doesn't really change much past appearances to those that fail to educate themselves on what is actually happening, or who are aiming to feed a previous bias.

The post you quoted clearly stated I didn't see them as perfect, but that the idea they are worse than nazis or ISIS, let alone comparing them to such groups, is downright pathetic. And the idea you are being objective is pretty spooky, given you, right before that, mentioned you had significant bias, and significant disdain. You can hold that view, and I will hold mine. It wouldn't change no matter how much the screaming match went on. I mean, that has to do with what you think is right and wrong, what you think is right to protect, and who is in the right from the start - you don't see them being any of those things, so the matter is settled to you.

The issue is the current government has a sway over how we live and interact. Hardly libertarian as of now.

Stuck in commitee is almost as good as not governing at all. I honestly don't think Trump will accomplish much of his largely already abandoned agenda with his two year window of opportunity. That is, of course assuming Democrats get their shit together.

Except stuck in commitee doesn't remove the use of political and state violence, which even a right-wing libertarian doesn't respect, yes?

[Ifreann]

I fucking told you so! Finally, some good has come out of DHS! Kill 'em all!

(Frankly, I'm surprised that it was NJ to list Antifa as a terrorist organization. Of all states...Good job NJ.)

This wasn't the DHS, and this doesn't allow anyone to be killed.

---

I definitely think that this is a step in the right direction. Antifa openly call for violence against 'Nazis' - i.e people who disagree with them,

Well, no. Antifa aren't putting forward and policies or trying to advance any political goal. They're just looking to punch Nazis. Protect individuals from Nazis by punching the Nazis. Protect the wider nation from a Nazi government by punching the Nazis. Certainly the Nazis, and various other right-wingers, would like you to believe that evil antifa are trying to use violence to force their agenda on you. They're just trying to make themselves out to be oppressed victims. Antifa aren't trying to get elected. They aren't trying to control the country. They're just punching Nazis.

[Nulla Bellum]

Stuck in commitee is almost as good as not governing at all. I honestly don't think Trump will accomplish much of his largely already abandoned agenda with his two year window of opportunity. That is, of course assuming Democrats get their shit together.

Except stuck in commitee doesn't remove the use of political and state violence, which even a right-wing libertarian doesn't respect, yes?

Very much yes, of course. Trump isn't going to "make America great again." I'm comfortable that he's currently powerless to make it much worse.

[Nulla Bellum]

I fucking told you so! Finally, some good has come out of DHS! Kill 'em all!

(Frankly, I'm surprised that it was NJ to list Antifa as a terrorist organization. Of all states...Good job NJ.)

This wasn't the DHS, and this doesn't allow anyone to be killed.

---

I definitely think that this is a step in the right direction. Antifa openly call for violence against 'Nazis' - i.e people who disagree with them,

Well, no. Antifa aren't putting forward and policies or trying to advance any political goal. They're just looking to punch Nazis. Protect individuals from Nazis by punching the Nazis. Protect the wider nation from a Nazi government by punching the Nazis. Certainly the Nazis, and various other right-wingers, would like you to believe that evil antifa are trying to use violence to force their agenda on you. They're just trying to make themselves out to be oppressed victims. Antifa aren't trying to get elected. They aren't trying to control the country. They're just punching Nazis.

1945 was 72 years ago. Pretty sure if Antifa actually found a Nazi they'd be assaulting an old man.

[Donut section]

I fucking told you so! Finally, some good has come out of DHS! Kill 'em all!

(Frankly, I'm surprised that it was NJ to list Antifa as a terrorist organization. Of all states...Good job NJ.)

This wasn't the DHS, and this doesn't allow anyone to be killed.

---

I definitely think that this is a step in the right direction. Antifa openly call for violence against 'Nazis' - i.e people who disagree with them,

Well, no. Antifa aren't putting forward and policies or trying to advance any political goal. They're just looking to punch Nazis. Protect individuals from Nazis by punching the Nazis. Protect the wider nation from a Nazi government by punching the Nazis. Certainly the Nazis, and various other right-wingers, would like you to believe that evil antifa are trying to use violence to force their agenda on you. They're just trying to make themselves out to be oppressed victims. Antifa aren't trying to get elected. They aren't trying to control the country. They're just punching Nazis.

Yeah but their definition of nazi is anyone who is right of socialism. I was a member back in the day when they used to punch nazis. I left when they tried adding to what constitutes a nazi.

[Ifreann]

This wasn't the DHS, and this doesn't allow anyone to be killed.

---

Well, no. Antifa aren't putting forward and policies or trying to advance any political goal. They're just looking to punch Nazis. Protect individuals from Nazis by punching the Nazis. Protect the wider nation from a Nazi government by punching the Nazis. Certainly the Nazis, and various other right-wingers, would like you to believe that evil antifa are trying to use violence to force their agenda on you. They're just trying to make themselves out to be oppressed victims. Antifa aren't trying to get elected. They aren't trying to control the country. They're just punching Nazis.

1945 was 72 years ago. Pretty sure if Antifa actually found a Nazi they'd be assaulting an old man.

I use "Nazi" in a loose sense, but I imagine there'd be little sympathy for old Nazi men having to argue their case in the Hague around a broken jaw.

---

This wasn't the DHS, and this doesn't allow anyone to be killed.

---

Well, no. Antifa aren't putting forward and policies or trying to advance any political goal. They're just looking to punch Nazis. Protect individuals from Nazis by punching the Nazis. Protect the wider nation from a Nazi government by punching the Nazis. Certainly the Nazis, and various other right-wingers, would like you to believe that evil antifa are trying to use violence to force their agenda on you. They're just trying to make themselves out to be oppressed victims. Antifa aren't trying to get elected. They aren't trying to control the country. They're just punching Nazis.

Yeah but their definition of nazi is anyone who is right of socialism. I was a member back in the day when they used to punch nazis. I left when they tried adding to what constitutes a nazi.

Yes, I'm sure the People's Front of Antifa were awful meanies.

[Donut section]

1945 was 72 years ago. Pretty sure if Antifa actually found a Nazi they'd be assaulting an old man.

I use "Nazi" in a loose sense, but I imagine there'd be little sympathy for old Nazi men having to argue their case in the Hague around a broken jaw.

---

Yeah but their definition of nazi is anyone who is right of socialism. I was a member back in the day when they used to punch nazis. I left when they tried adding to what constitutes a nazi.

Yes, I'm sure the People's Front of Antifa were awful meanies.

Well yeah, you try explaining to people that just because someone has blonde hair it doesn't make them a nazi to group of kids who are simmering with autistic rage at the bin in the corner of the room.

[Torrocca]

As I consider it, although Antifa is rightly considered a terrorist organization according to what it does, I don't disagree with it nor its message, really. For thousands of years violence has - and for thousands of years in the future it'll continue to be - the tool of both the oppressed and their oppressors. Seeing all our old links to the most terrifying event in human history, WWII, fade away with these coming years, means we lose out on the proper insight in a war that took the incredible efforts of many millions and took the lives of many of those millions - when that is gone, we lose out the insight of those who were the tyrants and those who fought the tyrants, and it may be a new wave of Fascist beliefs rise up from the ashes with no one any longer around to safeguard the truth to its fullest extent. Hell, Neo-Nazis and Fascists still continue to exist today, despite the terrors of the years 1936-1945, so I don't have hope that Neo-Nazis, Fascists, etc. will see a downward trend once the last of the great heroes of that era pass. Because of that, the people will and do need a tool to prevent their return, because if they do return to power, liberty will perish and free men will find themselves in chains again as they did all those years ago. So, although Antifa are terrorists, at least in New Jersey, I don't disagree in what they fight for nor why they fight.

[Catochristoferson]

The issue is the current government has a sway over how we live and interact. Hardly libertarian as of now.

Stuck in commitee is almost as good as not governing at all. I honestly don't think Trump will accomplish much of his largely already abandoned agenda with his two year window of opportunity. That is, of course assuming Democrats get their shit together.

I don't get why people on the left or right feel the need to support "revolutionary" politicians. They never stick to their plan, it would be nearly impossible to actually get the changes they promised anyways.

[Mattopilos II]

Stuck in commitee is almost as good as not governing at all. I honestly don't think Trump will accomplish much of his largely already abandoned agenda with his two year window of opportunity. That is, of course assuming Democrats get their shit together.

I don't get why people on the left or right feel the need to support "revolutionary" politicians. They never stick to their plan, it would be nearly impossible to actually get the changes they promised anyways.

Populist parliamentarianism is one hellava drug.

[Katganistan]

No, I can safely say I didn't hear it on 4chan.

You wrote it on 4chan?

Nope. Never been on 4chan, and have no interest in it.

[Minoa]

"Child Slaves on Mars" is so implausible given that we haven't landed anyone on the moon yet. :facepalm:

What next? Teletubbies on Pluto?

[Vassenor]

This wasn't the DHS, and this doesn't allow anyone to be killed.

---

Well, no. Antifa aren't putting forward and policies or trying to advance any political goal. They're just looking to punch Nazis. Protect individuals from Nazis by punching the Nazis. Protect the wider nation from a Nazi government by punching the Nazis. Certainly the Nazis, and various other right-wingers, would like you to believe that evil antifa are trying to use violence to force their agenda on you. They're just trying to make themselves out to be oppressed victims. Antifa aren't trying to get elected. They aren't trying to control the country. They're just punching Nazis.

1945 was 72 years ago. Pretty sure if Antifa actually found a Nazi they'd be assaulting an old man.

And yet we still have people showing up at Klan rallies who're perfectly fine with throwing Nazi symbolism everywhere.

[Faeshire]

Fantastic! Thank God! We should do this in Sweden as well.

[Nulla Bellum]

1945 was 72 years ago. Pretty sure if Antifa actually found a Nazi they'd be assaulting an old man.

And yet we still have people showing up at Klan rallies who're perfectly fine with throwing Nazi symbolism everywhere.

But Antifa isn't attacking 90 year old men or Klan rallies.

[Ifreann]

And yet we still have people showing up at Klan rallies who're perfectly fine with throwing Nazi symbolism everywhere.

But Antifa isn't attacking 90 year old men or Klan rallies.

Well the 90 year old men tend to be hard to track down.

[Vassenor]

And yet we still have people showing up at Klan rallies who're perfectly fine with throwing Nazi symbolism everywhere.

But Antifa isn't attacking 90 year old men or Klan rallies.

No, just people like this.

[Greater Cesnica]

And yet we still have people showing up at Klan rallies who're perfectly fine with throwing Nazi symbolism everywhere.

But Antifa isn't attacking 90 year old men or Klan rallies.

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/com ... by_antifa/

Elderly man attacked by Antifa.

Oh also, Antifa and the KKK are pretty much the exact same fucking thing, they're right next to each other on the political spectrum, with Antifa bordering the line between Far-left and Far-right, KKK Vice-versa.

Do research before posting.

[Republic of the Roman Nations]

But Antifa isn't attacking 90 year old men or Klan rallies.

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/com ... by_antifa/

Elderly man attacked by Antifa.

Oh also, Antifa and the KKK are pretty much the exact same fucking thing, they're right next to each other on the political spectrum, with Antifa bordering the line between Far-left and Far-right, KKK Vice-versa.

Do research before posting.

I'd have to agree, it's horseshoe theory at work.

[Ifreann]

But Antifa isn't attacking 90 year old men or Klan rallies.

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/

Hahaha, oh wow.