New U.S. Healthcare Reform, No New Business for Insurance Co

[Muravyets]

I especially giggle when Congressmen like John Boehner Say things like; "We can't afford it right now" or "It's too expensive" or "We shouldn't rush healthcare reform."

I just giggle because he's called Boehner.

He insists it's pronounced "BAYner".

[Treznor]

No they shouldn't its their money and they can do what ever they want with it, they have no obligation to pay for anyones healthcare, and no one has the right to steal their money.

thats why the government is going to take care of it. no one can expect the rich to do so out of the goodness of their hearts.

The rich don't have to do anything they don't want to and the government won't take care of anything, because in the United States of America individual freedom is held in high regard and the government won't be forcing anyone to do anything. I understand you're for stealing money, but I am against stealing.

That's a curious little strawman you've constructed there. Two people who live in the same society but receive different benefits for living in that society create inequality. I'd like to see your justification that CEOs and other high-paid white-collar folk deserve to make over four hundred times the salaries of their regular workers, as they do a fraction of the work.

Societies with the greatest stability are the societies that look after their own. The less inequality there is in a society, the better it can focus on other problems. But if you think the rich deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to die then that's your right. You're just not going to get us to agree with you.

[Muravyets]

My mother is legal just like me yet we can't afford healthcare

Ok. Well not ok, but we were not discussing your situation at the moment. We were saying how ILLEGAL immigrants should not be provided healthcare at the expense of American citizens.

Bullshit. YOU don't want to discuss the heart of the matter because it doesn't support your preferred anti-immigration song and dance. The fact of the matter remains that the 46 million Americans without any coverage at all and the millions more who are under-insured are NOT all illegal immigrants.

And they're not all poor either, but they are sure as hell becoming poor pretty damn fast because of this. I remind you of the recent statistic indicating that 60% of all personal bankruptcies in the US last year alone are connected to medical expenses. Those bankruptcies are not being filed by illegal hedge trimmers.

[Muravyets]

No one should be forced to help someone else. As Sibirsky an Opola have stated a large portion of the uninsured can obtain health insurance. Everyone uses at least some of the money they make at work for luxuries such as vacations not just the ''greedy'' corporations. And no it is NOT their job to pay off anyone's health expenses unless its their own.

The government exists to help people. It exists to serve the people. It has no other legitimate reason to be here at all. And it helps people via tax dollars -- in other words, all members of society cooperatively pay into a common fund to deliver common services that help everyone. If some people use the help more at some points in their lives than others, so what? The safety net is still there for all who need it, whenever they might need it. Just like the roads will be just as paved for the weekend driver as the daily commuter. I fail to see why a basic standard of health care expense coverage should not be among those common services provided to all Americans by all Americans.

[Muravyets]

*sigh*

I'm not wading through the ideological bickering, so I'll just ask: Has anyone even tried to tie the actual language of the bill to the absurd allegations made in the OP and IBD editorial?

See, e.g., viewtopic.php?p=254703#p254703; viewtopic.php?p=254937#p254937

No, TCT, but did you really expect them to?

[Muravyets]

I don't agree with anyone STEALING money, but they don't steal money, they have salaries just like everyone else and they use their salaries on themselves.

Are you under the impression that corporate CEOs pay employees' salaries and benefits out of their own pockets/paychecks?

[Muravyets]

i think you are wrong.

health care reform is going to pass

I agree. The only question is what kind of "reform"?

[Ashmoria]

i think you are wrong.

health care reform is going to pass

I agree. The only question is what kind of "reform"?

yeah. i do hate to leave the decision to politicians.

[Jakra]

i think you are wrong.

health care reform is going to pass

I agree. The only question is what kind of "reform"?

yeah. i do hate to leave the decision to politicians.

Who else would we leave it to then?

[Fassitude]

In Sweden, the wait for heart surgery can be as long as 25 weeks, and the average wait for hip replacement surgery is more than a year. Many of these individuals suffer chronic pain, and judging by the numbers, some will probably die awaiting treatment.

Uhm, that's a bunch of bull. The only wait for crucial heart surgery that even approaches 25 weeks in Sweden that I am aware of is transplant surgery - for obvious reasons - and surgery that requires considerable planning and where waiting can be a way to assess non-surgical intervention. For instance, the university hospital I work for, that services 1 million inhabitants, has a "waiting" period for planned coronary bypass grafts around a month or two (depending on the severity - most people don't need and shouldn't be operated on immediately), and for acute surgery... well, those are usually done within a day or two from the onset of unstable angina/heart attack. PCI is done upon arrival to the Cardiac Emergency Department and Intensive Care Unit. In fact, we junior doctors tend to bitch about it because we never get to see "classical" ST-elevation infarctions because they don't even go by the regular ER - the ECGs are assessed electronically by cardiologists as the patient is on route in the ambulance and are diverted to the PCI lab/OR for surgical intervention directly. And this is done 24/7/365 - "time is myocardium!"

As for hip surgeries, one needs to look at indications. Fractures? Operated within a day, two tops if the patient is stable enough for surgery, as hip fractures are deadly if left untreated and one runs serious risks the longer one waits (infections, thromboses and so on). Osteoarthritis (a disease that develops over decades) has waiting periods ranging from a month to a year depending on the degree of disease and discomfort the patient suffers - most people with osteoarthritis can medically defer surgery for a long time with effective non-surgical treatment and physiotherapy, and indeed joint replacement surgery is "better" the later it is done due to wear and tear of the artificial joint and the demands put on it (the younger you are, the less satisfactory the effect of a replacement is to your needs, and the longer you have to live with your artificial joint, the likelier you are to need re-operating due to the wear and tear I mentioned, and the younger you are at the time of surgery the more wear and tear you will subject the joint to). Most people with osteoarthritis do not need acute surgery, and thus a year's waiting period is not a big deal (the "writhing in pain" in wait of surgery patient is a patient I have never come across; the "I'm waiting for surgery down the line, but I'm on meds meanwhile and doing quite fine with my physio", on the other hand) - especially seeing as the option with a private insurance system is them simply not getting one if they can't afford it.

I am actually quite pleased with our health system. It's not perfect - none are - but we pay less than, say, the USA for it, and we have better results than they do despite them paying so much more than we do for their private system. We have a longer life expectancy, higher general health levels, much lower infant and child mortalities and so on and so on. What a freaking "socialist" nightmare to have far more of our kids survive, and our elderly not only be healthier but live longer, too, no? Bloody parasites...

[Ashmoria]

I agree. The only question is what kind of "reform"?

yeah. i do hate to leave the decision to politicians.

Who else would we leave it to then?

thats the problem, eh?

it would be good to have some assurance that the plan has the approval of some kind of public health professional and that our congressmen arent too heavily in the pocket of the insurance and health care companies.

[The_pantless_hero]

My mother is legal just like me yet we can't afford healthcare

Ok. Well not ok, but we were not discussing your situation at the moment. We were saying how ILLEGAL immigrants should not be provided healthcare at the expense of American citizens.

Did anyone else read this as "I don't want to discuss legitimate reasons why we should have universal healthcare, I just want to initiate bigoted, sensational rants against immigrants."

[The_pantless_hero]

11 million of the uninsured are illegal immigrants who do not qualify for insurance
21.8 million are kids who choose not to have insurance but can afford it

16 million are people making over $50,000 per year who can afford health insurance.

Because the standard of living is the exact same in every single place in the US

[Eugene Zolo]

That's a curious little strawman you've constructed there. Two people who live in the same society but receive different benefits for living in that society create inequality. I'd like to see your justification that CEOs and other high-paid white-collar folk deserve to make over four hundred times the salaries of their regular workers, as they do a fraction of the work.

Societies with the greatest stability are the societies that look after their own. The less inequality there is in a society, the better it can focus on other problems. But if you think the rich deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to die then that's your right. You're just not going to get us to agree with you.

I am not talking about who deserves what, though many of these CEOs may have worked hard to get to where they are. I am saying that they make what they make and no one has the right to steal their money. You can say the poor don't have that much money so we should just steal from the rich, but you won't get me to agree with you.

[Muravyets]

My mother is legal just like me yet we can't afford healthcare

Ok. Well not ok, but we were not discussing your situation at the moment. We were saying how ILLEGAL immigrants should not be provided healthcare at the expense of American citizens.

Did anyone else read this as "I don't want to discuss legitimate reasons why we should have universal healthcare, I just want to initiate bigoted, sensational rants against immigrants."

*raises hand* I did.

[Treznor]

That's a curious little strawman you've constructed there. Two people who live in the same society but receive different benefits for living in that society create inequality. I'd like to see your justification that CEOs and other high-paid white-collar folk deserve to make over four hundred times the salaries of their regular workers, as they do a fraction of the work.

Societies with the greatest stability are the societies that look after their own. The less inequality there is in a society, the better it can focus on other problems. But if you think the rich deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to die then that's your right. You're just not going to get us to agree with you.

I am not talking about who deserves what, though many of these CEOs may have worked hard to get to where they are. I am saying that they make what they make and no one has the right to steal their money. You can say the poor don't have that much money so we should just steal from the rich, but you won't get me to agree with you.

Fine. Let's talk about stealing. Over the past thirty years the wealth of the upper class has exploded, while everyone else's wages have stagnated. The Cost of Living index had power and food costs cut from it to make it look like the rise isn't so bad, so effectively everyone is making the same amount of money, and having to spend more of it for basic necessities.

So now we have a situation where all the wealth being created is concentrated at the top, while the cost of living overwhelms everyone else. So, who is stealing from whom?

[Surote]

We need to start caring about the lower and middle class citizens instead of the rich folk by start regulating the economy and welfare. Plus getting universal healthcare through or regulate the private companies

Firstly stop saying middle class like you're talking about the middle class, you're not talking about them alright. Welfare should be minimized as much as possible.

I know you believe in capitalism just like me but if we don't put together as a country the United states is going to fall

[Surote]

That's a curious little strawman you've constructed there. Two people who live in the same society but receive different benefits for living in that society create inequality. I'd like to see your justification that CEOs and other high-paid white-collar folk deserve to make over four hundred times the salaries of their regular workers, as they do a fraction of the work.

Societies with the greatest stability are the societies that look after their own. The less inequality there is in a society, the better it can focus on other problems. But if you think the rich deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to die then that's your right. You're just not going to get us to agree with you.

I am not talking about who deserves what, though many of these CEOs may have worked hard to get to where they are. I am saying that they make what they make and no one has the right to steal their money. You can say the poor don't have that much money so we should just steal from the rich, but you won't get me to agree with you.

Fine. Let's talk about stealing. Over the past thirty years the wealth of the upper class has exploded, while everyone else's wages have stagnated. The Cost of Living index had power and food costs cut from it to make it look like the rise isn't so bad, so effectively everyone is making the same amount of money, and having to spend more of it for basic necessities.

So now we have a situation where all the wealth being created is concentrated at the top, while the cost of living overwhelms everyone else. So, who is stealing from whom?

Rich is stealing from the poor

[Sibirsky]

I never said extravagant. I said not necessary. We are in the middle of an economic depression. That expense not justifiable.

One that's probably just a meeting of officals talkin plus only a 1,000 no very much and two were in a reccesion pal

Aha. Tell that to the 21% unemployed. The way the government calculates inflation, is flawed. They underestimate it by about 7%. They do it so A) they save money on those social security payouts that are indexed to the CPI. And B) it makes them look better. That being said, with GDP contracting by over 6% (which is adjusted for inflation) if you add the 7% they overestimate it by, than GDP contracted by over 13%. That is a depression. Most other economic data also shows a deep structural contraction. That is not a recession, it is a depression. Of course you can listen to the politicians who said it would be contained to a maximum of $100 billion in losses, $14 trillion in bailouts ago.

[Surote]

Aha. Tell that to the 21% unemployed. The way the government calculates inflation, is flawed. They underestimate it by about 7%. They do it so A) they save money on those social security payouts that are indexed to the CPI. And B) it makes them look better. That being said, with GDP contracting by over 6% (which is adjusted for inflation) if you add the 7% they overestimate it by, than GDP contracted by over 13%. That is a depression. Most other economic data also shows a deep structural contraction. That is not a recession, it is a depression. Of course you can listen to the politicians who said it would be contained to a maximum of $100 billion in losses, $14 trillion in bailouts ago.

[/quote]
We don't have 21% unemployment we national we have 9.5% last time i check are you reading the hanities files

[Muravyets]

I never said extravagant. I said not necessary. We are in the middle of an economic depression. That expense not justifiable.

One that's probably just a meeting of officals talkin plus only a 1,000 no very much and two were in a reccesion pal

Aha. Tell that to the 21% unemployed. The way the government calculates inflation, is flawed. They underestimate it by about 7%. They do it so A) they save money on those social security payouts that are indexed to the CPI. And B) it makes them look better. That being said, with GDP contracting by over 6% (which is adjusted for inflation) if you add the 7% they overestimate it by, than GDP contracted by over 13%. That is a depression. Most other economic data also shows a deep structural contraction. That is not a recession, it is a depression. Of course you can listen to the politicians who said it would be contained to a maximum of $100 billion in losses, $14 trillion in bailouts ago.

How're you doing on those links to those better health care reform plans? I'm seriously interested because I'm seriously desperate.

[Rhodmhire]

This thread has really angered me. I don't think anybody knows shit, everyone just makes cliché arguments or just obnoxious crap, on both sides. Does anybody know what communism actually is?

At least someone besides me realizes that.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Do you see what's happening It's for the poor people you know the ones that carry america my mother and are poor and we can't afford healthcare but the repubs don't want to help cut the cost cause they care about the ceo's only it sucks

Firstly the majority of Americans ARE insured, and its the majority that carry America. The Republicans don't want to help cut cost, because they don't feel that someone else should be paying for your healthcare. Its not my job to pay for your healthcare and you have no right to steal money from me or any other American to pay for your health insurance. I feel bad that your mother is uninsured, but she is not my responsibility.

Funny how that seems to only apply to healthcare but not police, education of fire protection. How would you feel about crime insurance? Hmm? You know, in case you need the police to come to your house to stop a burglar. Of course, if you don;'t have insurance, the police can just bill you. How does that sound? Why should I pay to protect someone else's belongings? Not to mention that free market forces and competition can help make law enforcement work much more efficiently.

What about education? Why should I pay for some other kid's education? Hmm?

Isn't it amazing how the 'Why should I pay for someone else?" argument only seems to healthcare? You know, disease also spreads from the poor to the rich.

[Eugene Zolo]

That's a curious little strawman you've constructed there. Two people who live in the same society but receive different benefits for living in that society create inequality. I'd like to see your justification that CEOs and other high-paid white-collar folk deserve to make over four hundred times the salaries of their regular workers, as they do a fraction of the work.

Societies with the greatest stability are the societies that look after their own. The less inequality there is in a society, the better it can focus on other problems. But if you think the rich deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to die then that's your right. You're just not going to get us to agree with you.

I am not talking about who deserves what, though many of these CEOs may have worked hard to get to where they are. I am saying that they make what they make and no one has the right to steal their money. You can say the poor don't have that much money so we should just steal from the rich, but you won't get me to agree with you.

Fine. Let's talk about stealing. Over the past thirty years the wealth of the upper class has exploded, while everyone else's wages have stagnated. The Cost of Living index had power and food costs cut from it to make it look like the rise isn't so bad, so effectively everyone is making the same amount of money, and having to spend more of it for basic necessities.

So now we have a situation where all the wealth being created is concentrated at the top, while the cost of living overwhelms everyone else. So, who is stealing from whom?

What you described isn't stealing. I wasn't even saying anyone was stealing I was saying that you were advocating stealing.

[Sibirsky]

My mother is legal just like me yet we can't afford healthcare

Ok. Well not ok, but we were not discussing your situation at the moment. We were saying how ILLEGAL immigrants should not be provided healthcare at the expense of American citizens.

Bullshit. YOU don't want to discuss the heart of the matter because it doesn't support your preferred anti-immigration song and dance. The fact of the matter remains that the 46 million Americans without any coverage at all and the millions more who are under-insured are NOT all illegal immigrants.

And they're not all poor either, but they are sure as hell becoming poor pretty damn fast because of this. I remind you of the recent statistic indicating that 60% of all personal bankruptcies in the US last year alone are connected to medical expenses. Those bankruptcies are not being filed by illegal hedge trimmers.

I am not anti immigration. I am an immigrant. I am anti ILLEGAL immigration. And I am anti taxpayer funded healthcare for illegal immigrants. I already said that the main problem is rapidly rising healthcare costs.

47 million uninsured.
9.4 million ILLEGAL immigrants
15.6 million make over $50,000 per year, they can afford their own coverage.
22 million uninsured