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Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:49 am

Grays Harbor wrote:
Neo Art wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.


No it wasn't "instituted" by Clinton, it was a law passed by a (Republican controlled) congress. True, Clinton signed it, but the alternative of course was to continue to allow the old policy of "gays can't serve, PERIOD" to continue.

It's not simply Presidentially mandated military policy. If it were, Obama could undue it with a stroke of a pen. It's federal law, instituted BY CONGRESS and only CONGRESS can undue it.


It was instituted by Clinton in as much the same manner as policies instituted by any president are. They are in the hot seat, they get the blame or kudos. live with it. not saying that is right or wrong, but thats the way it is. and if he truly objected that much to it, there is always the "red pen of veto" handy.


Beyond showing a misunderstanding of checks and balances AND relevant history, this is an irrelevant side issue. Who "instituted" DADT isn't the point. The point is that sexual orientation is irrelevant to one's ability to serve.
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Tiesabre
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Tiesabre » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:54 am

Referring to American soldiers as 'unprofessional' already puts you behind the 8-ball with most Americans.

Now, coming to you as a former US Navy sailor, no, letting gays join won't cause any moral issues and such. That really just a load of BS, I couldn't care less if the guy next to me is gay. As far as I'm concerned and many other members of our armed forces are concerned, we're all brothers and sister and die together, and stand together like brothers and sisters. Just cause that sailor is gay doesn't mean I don't believe he'll have my back when the shit goes down just like I'd have his.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Saint Clair Island » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:55 am

Yenke-Bin wrote:
Saint Clair Island wrote:
Katganistan wrote:It's the Clone Wars, baby.

Ayup. And in such an army, homosexuality would really be a phantom menace.



Oh, not this shi...erm sith again.

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:56 am

Tiesabre wrote:Referring to American soldiers as 'unprofessional' already puts you behind the 8-ball with most Americans.


Good thing I didn't refer to U.S. soldiers as unprofessional then. :eyebrow:
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The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Cybach » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:56 am

Out of curiosity. How will they deal with discontent and if many men refuse to share a changing room with homosexuals? Citing that women and men also have separate changing rooms due to sexual attraction? Will homosexuals be granted separate bathrooms/changing rooms like women, or will the military shut their ears to such complaints until the first homosexuals start getting abused and beaten by overly paranoid soldiers for "staring."

Can the military force heterosexual men to change in the same changing rooms as homosexual men? Would this be right, if the majority would have problems with this? Since the US is a more conservative country than Britain, I can imagine more US soldiers might have issues with open homosexuals sharing the same showers and changing rooms.

Or can heterosexual soldiers sue the government for promoting sexual harassment by allowing homosexuals to change in their changing rooms at the same time? Much like women might sue the government if they were forced to change in dressing and changing rooms with men.

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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Daistallia 2104 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:02 am

In the words of Barry freaking "Mr. 'Conservative'" Goldwater:

You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight.

The big thing is to make this country, along with every other country in the world with a few exceptions, quit discriminating against people just because they're gay. You don't have to agree with it, but they have a constitutional right to be gay. And that's what brings me into it.

Having spent 37 years of my life in the military as a reservist, and never having met a gay in all of that time, and never having even talked about it in all those years, I just thought, why the hell shouldn't they serve? They're American citizens. As long as they're not doing things that are harmful to anyone else... So I came out for it.
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Tiesabre
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Tiesabre » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:02 am

Cybach wrote:Out of curiosity. How will they deal with discontent and if many men refuse to share a changing room with homosexuals? Citing that women and men also have separate changing rooms due to sexual attraction? Will homosexuals be granted separate bathrooms/changing rooms like women, or will the military shut their ears to such complaints until the first homosexuals start getting abused and beaten by overly paranoid soldiers for "staring."

Can the military force heterosexual men to change in the same changing rooms as homosexual men? Would this be right, if the majority would have problems with this? Since the US is a more conservative country than Britain, I can imagine more US soldiers might have issues with open homosexuals sharing the same showers and changing rooms.

Or can heterosexual soldiers sue the government for promoting sexual harassment by allowing homosexuals to change in their changing rooms at the same time? Much like women might sue the government if they were forced to change in dressing and changing rooms with men.

I've got something off note to add to that.

Submarines do not allow female sailors aboard at all unless they're being transported somewhere. The reason being is the 'claim' that reverting the submarines for female heads((navy talk for restrooms)) and bunks would be too expensive and the crapped quarters would create an 'uncomfortable environment' for the females.

Then other thing I'd like to add is that on subs, you sleep 'ass-to-dick' to save space. So a gay sailor, straight sailor or female sailor could all easily call 'sexual harassment'.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Poliwanacraca » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:07 am

Cybach wrote:Out of curiosity. How will they deal with discontent and if many men refuse to share a changing room with homosexuals? Citing that women and men also have separate changing rooms due to sexual attraction? Will homosexuals be granted separate bathrooms/changing rooms like women, or will the military shut their ears to such complaints until the first homosexuals start getting abused and beaten by overly paranoid soldiers for "staring."


Women and men have separate bathrooms due to sexual attraction? That's weird, because I'm pretty sure almost everyone is aware that gay people exist nowadays, and yet I haven't seen even one single building constructed in the last few years with separate straight male, straight female, gay male, and gay female restrooms. I'm sure, though, if this is a real problem, you can point to some buildings constructed that way?

Can the military force heterosexual men to change in the same changing rooms as homosexual men? Would this be right, if the majority would have problems with this? Since the US is a more conservative country than Britain, I can imagine more US soldiers might have issues with open homosexuals sharing the same showers and changing rooms.


It's rather sad that you think our soldiers are too pathetic to cope with the vague possibility of someone checking out their asses. I give them rather more credit than that.

Or can heterosexual soldiers sue the government for promoting sexual harassment by allowing homosexuals to change in their changing rooms at the same time?


...because obviously gay guys are all horrible, lecherous scumbags who will sexually harass any man who comes near them. Obviously. :roll:

Much like women might sue the government if they were forced to change in dressing and changing rooms with men.


I've changed in the same room as men on a great many occasions. It's called "being in the performing arts." Somehow I survived. Again, it's rather insulting that you think our soldiers are so much more cowardly and insecure than the average amateur dancer or singer.
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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:07 am

Cybach wrote:Out of curiosity. How will they deal with discontent and if many men refuse to share a changing room with homosexuals? Citing that women and men also have separate changing rooms due to sexual attraction? Will homosexuals be granted separate bathrooms/changing rooms like women, or will the military shut their ears to such complaints until the first homosexuals start getting abused and beaten by overly paranoid soldiers for "staring."

Can the military force heterosexual men to change in the same changing rooms as homosexual men? Would this be right, if the majority would have problems with this? Since the US is a more conservative country than Britain, I can imagine more US soldiers might have issues with open homosexuals sharing the same showers and changing rooms.

Or can heterosexual soldiers sue the government for promoting sexual harassment by allowing homosexuals to change in their changing rooms at the same time? Much like women might sue the government if they were forced to change in dressing and changing rooms with men.


1. You haven't a clue as to sexual harrassment law, so you probably shouldn't try to argue it.

2. I believe U.S. troops are not thugs and can behave themselves. To the extent they can't, they can be disciplined.
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The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Dyakovo » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:12 am

Grays Harbor wrote:conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.

True, but as I have stated repeatedly, and as TCT already pointed out in this very thread, DADT was an improvement on its predecessor.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby The Hellish Apocalypse » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:16 am

YamataNoOrochi wrote:US troops are just a bunch of pyromaniacs who cannot actually fight wars, so rely on there firepower. They have continued to use the same policy for the past 60-70 years - use a poor excuse to invade another country and shower them in bombs and napalm


So says the person who sits at home and plays this game.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Dyakovo » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:27 am

The Cat-Tribe wrote:Although I know personally people who have joined the military because they like shooting things and blowing things up,

That's a part of the reason why I joined... :D
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Grays Harbor » Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:58 am

Dyakovo wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:conservatives by and large support this program, but it should be remembered that it was instituted by Clinton.

True, but as I have stated repeatedly, and as TCT already pointed out in this very thread, DADT was an improvement on its predecessor.



an improvement, yes, but still not good enough. saying a slightly less bad policy is an improvement over a really bad policy doesn't help those in uniform.

as a former infantry officer, I believe I can state that who a person chooses to bunk with has no bearing whatsoever on how well they perform their job and the mission. banning gays from the military completely was assinine. DADT is slightly better, but still assinine. why should it be an issue at all? it needs removing. Hell, when I was a platoon leader, my lead M-60 gunner was a "don't tell" type. Did that make him any less of an excellent gunner or soldier? Not hardly. Did it lower him in the eyes of his fellow soldiers in the platoon? Nope.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Cybach » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:20 am

Poliwanacraca wrote:
Cybach wrote:Out of curiosity. How will they deal with discontent and if many men refuse to share a changing room with homosexuals? Citing that women and men also have separate changing rooms due to sexual attraction? Will homosexuals be granted separate bathrooms/changing rooms like women, or will the military shut their ears to such complaints until the first homosexuals start getting abused and beaten by overly paranoid soldiers for "staring."


Women and men have separate bathrooms due to sexual attraction? That's weird, because I'm pretty sure almost everyone is aware that gay people exist nowadays, and yet I haven't seen even one single building constructed in the last few years with separate straight male, straight female, gay male, and gay female restrooms. I'm sure, though, if this is a real problem, you can point to some buildings constructed that way?

Can the military force heterosexual men to change in the same changing rooms as homosexual men? Would this be right, if the majority would have problems with this? Since the US is a more conservative country than Britain, I can imagine more US soldiers might have issues with open homosexuals sharing the same showers and changing rooms.


It's rather sad that you think our soldiers are too pathetic to cope with the vague possibility of someone checking out their asses. I give them rather more credit than that.

Or can heterosexual soldiers sue the government for promoting sexual harassment by allowing homosexuals to change in their changing rooms at the same time?


...because obviously gay guys are all horrible, lecherous scumbags who will sexually harass any man who comes near them. Obviously. :roll:

Much like women might sue the government if they were forced to change in dressing and changing rooms with men.


I've changed in the same room as men on a great many occasions. It's called "being in the performing arts." Somehow I survived. Again, it's rather insulting that you think our soldiers are so much more cowardly and insecure than the average amateur dancer or singer.



Why the hostility? Is curiosity frowned up in these circles? I didn't state one negative comment about homosexuals, nor do I possess any. Neither did I state anything negative about US Soldiers. I was speaking strictly in hypotheticals. So why the hostility?

Obviously I am not aware of the laws, or US laws regarding sexual conduct. Every country has different laws and customs regarding that. If you care to discuss the details and niches of German law, I suppose I can also start ridiculing you for being an ignorant idiot. Or perhaps I'll simply possess manners and attempt to enlighten you in a non-condescending manner.

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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Rhalellan » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:22 am

I retired from the Corps, and I served with many young men that were homosexuals/crossdressers. All but a very select few were excellent Marines and I entrusted my life to them on a daily basis. I even helped some of them to hide their chosen life from the Corps, so they could continue to serve. In my opinion you can't serve a "free" country and put stipulations on who can be free.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Buffett and Colbert » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:24 am

We common Americans in the showers will go "Ooh you have a penis! Heehee" So I doubt many will be mature enough to handle gays. Doesn't mean they aren't due for a slap in the face.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Saint Clair Island » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:24 am

Poliwanacraca wrote:
Cybach wrote:Out of curiosity. How will they deal with discontent and if many men refuse to share a changing room with homosexuals? Citing that women and men also have separate changing rooms due to sexual attraction? Will homosexuals be granted separate bathrooms/changing rooms like women, or will the military shut their ears to such complaints until the first homosexuals start getting abused and beaten by overly paranoid soldiers for "staring."


Women and men have separate bathrooms due to sexual attraction? That's weird, because I'm pretty sure almost everyone is aware that gay people exist nowadays, and yet I haven't seen even one single building constructed in the last few years with separate straight male, straight female, gay male, and gay female restrooms. I'm sure, though, if this is a real problem, you can point to some buildings constructed that way?

I always thought the reason men and women were separated by bathrooms was because men could use urinals and needed fewer stalls, whereas women couldn't. Hence, it was due to differences in construction and plumbing rather than due to any inherent differences in sex.
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Grays Harbor » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:24 am

Rhalellan wrote:I retired from the Corps, and I served with many young men that were homosexuals/crossdressers. All but a very select few were excellent Marines and I entrusted my life to them on a daily basis. I even helped some of them to hide their chosen life from the Corps, so they could continue to serve. In my opinion you can't serve a "free" country and put stipulations on who can be free.


:clap:

well said, Marine
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Maximus Corporation » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:36 am

There is no official "don't ask, don't tell" policy in the military. The official policy is a ban on all non-missionary sex. There are military members who are openly gay right now. The bans on homosexuals, sodomy (yeah, sorry to all people who like blow jobs or anal sex, the rules are based on our religious forefathers) and the like are there but not generally enforced unless the person makes them take action. For example if someone fails to do the work they are paid for, the fact that they like the same gender 'too much' can be used to separate them. Gays are effectively given less rights in the US military if they are trying to be slackers. If they keep their nose clean otherwise, everyone looks the other way. Not saying it's right, just saying that so many people don't know how it actually is.

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:40 am

Maximus Corporation wrote:There is no official "don't ask, don't tell" policy in the military. The official policy is a ban on all non-missionary sex. There are military members who are openly gay right now. The bans on homosexuals, sodomy (yeah, sorry to all people who like blow jobs or anal sex, the rules are based on our religious forefathers) and the like are there but not generally enforced unless the person makes them take action. For example if someone fails to do the work they are paid for, the fact that they like the same gender 'too much' can be used to separate them. Gays are effectively given less rights in the US military if they are trying to be slackers. If they keep their nose clean otherwise, everyone looks the other way. Not saying it's right, just saying that so many people don't know how it actually is.


Federal statutes seem to disagree with you. See 10 U.S.C. § 654.
Last edited by The Cat-Tribe on Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Kpob-Matn » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:49 am

As a an openly queer member of society, DADT makes me feel like a second class citizen. What about the fact that I have a girlfriend rather than a boyfriend makes me incapable of serving my country? Am I less patriotic? Less able to perform my duties? Will I just be unable to control myself around other women?

I love my girlfriend. I love my country. I would love to serve my country.

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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Ashmoria » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:22 pm

Kpob-Matn wrote:As a an openly queer member of society, DADT makes me feel like a second class citizen. What about the fact that I have a girlfriend rather than a boyfriend makes me incapable of serving my country? Am I less patriotic? Less able to perform my duties? Will I just be unable to control myself around other women?

I love my girlfriend. I love my country. I would love to serve my country.

you can.

you just have to pretend that your girlfriend doesnt exist.
whatever

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Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Poliwanacraca » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:26 pm

Cybach wrote:
Poliwanacraca wrote:
Cybach wrote:Out of curiosity. How will they deal with discontent and if many men refuse to share a changing room with homosexuals? Citing that women and men also have separate changing rooms due to sexual attraction? Will homosexuals be granted separate bathrooms/changing rooms like women, or will the military shut their ears to such complaints until the first homosexuals start getting abused and beaten by overly paranoid soldiers for "staring."


Women and men have separate bathrooms due to sexual attraction? That's weird, because I'm pretty sure almost everyone is aware that gay people exist nowadays, and yet I haven't seen even one single building constructed in the last few years with separate straight male, straight female, gay male, and gay female restrooms. I'm sure, though, if this is a real problem, you can point to some buildings constructed that way?

Can the military force heterosexual men to change in the same changing rooms as homosexual men? Would this be right, if the majority would have problems with this? Since the US is a more conservative country than Britain, I can imagine more US soldiers might have issues with open homosexuals sharing the same showers and changing rooms.


It's rather sad that you think our soldiers are too pathetic to cope with the vague possibility of someone checking out their asses. I give them rather more credit than that.

Or can heterosexual soldiers sue the government for promoting sexual harassment by allowing homosexuals to change in their changing rooms at the same time?


...because obviously gay guys are all horrible, lecherous scumbags who will sexually harass any man who comes near them. Obviously. :roll:

Much like women might sue the government if they were forced to change in dressing and changing rooms with men.


I've changed in the same room as men on a great many occasions. It's called "being in the performing arts." Somehow I survived. Again, it's rather insulting that you think our soldiers are so much more cowardly and insecure than the average amateur dancer or singer.



Why the hostility? Is curiosity frowned up in these circles? I didn't state one negative comment about homosexuals, nor do I possess any. Neither did I state anything negative about US Soldiers. I was speaking strictly in hypotheticals. So why the hostility?

Obviously I am not aware of the laws, or US laws regarding sexual conduct. Every country has different laws and customs regarding that. If you care to discuss the details and niches of German law, I suppose I can also start ridiculing you for being an ignorant idiot. Or perhaps I'll simply possess manners and attempt to enlighten you in a non-condescending manner.


I don't intend to ridicule you. It just gets frustrating to hear the same tired, baseless reasoning brought up in every single discussion of this topic. Every single time, it's just another variation on "but the icky icky gays wouldn't be able to keep their icky icky hands off our pure little straight-boy tushies," presented as if it's some new and thoughtful idea. Letting gay people openly admit to being gay only "promotes sexual harassment" if being openly gay somehow means you're more likely to sexually harass people. Without any evidence that this is the case, it's just the standard homophobic bullshit, and I don't see any reason to respect it.
"You know...I've just realized that "Poliwanacraca" is, when rendered in Arabic, an anagram for "Bom-chica-wohw-waaaow", the famous "sexy riff" that was born in the 70's and will live forever..." - Hammurab
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I much prefer 'magnolia'. 'Magnolia' is a much nicer word." - Saint Clair Island

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Chrobalta
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Posts: 5324
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Chrobalta » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:37 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Lizardiar wrote:They should allow gays soldiers that aren't the type of gay soldiers that would fondle you at night against your will. As long as it's not that kind of gay soldiers, I'm fine.


Fixed. Gays are no more likely to sexually assault other soldiers than heterosexuals. In fact, one could argue the opposite is true.

exactly, just look at the prison system LOL
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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Re: Are U.S. troops really so unprofessional?

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:48 pm

Ashmoria wrote:
Kpob-Matn wrote:As a an openly queer member of society, DADT makes me feel like a second class citizen. What about the fact that I have a girlfriend rather than a boyfriend makes me incapable of serving my country? Am I less patriotic? Less able to perform my duties? Will I just be unable to control myself around other women?

I love my girlfriend. I love my country. I would love to serve my country.

you can.

you just have to pretend that your girlfriend doesnt exist.

Well, not so much that she doesn't exist, only that your relationship with her is nothing more than friendship.



Actually just pretending she doesn't exist might be easier.
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