The T in LGBT

[Jormengand]

LGB does not include T.

Aaaand I'm done talking to you. Good day.

You could have done the courtesy of bothering to read why. Or you could have gone "Herp derp I so clever I can ignore you! Yaaaay!"

LGB does not include T. They are separate issues that require separate understanding. Both groups require rights, and both are being denied them. Also, they are partially linked. Sticking them together is a failed attempt to make us look like a little less of a minority.

No, sticking them together is a hopefully not failing attempt to unite two groups of people in opposition to one kind of bigotry.

It is failing, though. Having more people isn't actually going to change people's opinions.

[Dyakovo]

Besides, being a trans is so not normal and I can never approve it.

It's entirely normal, and transgender people don't need your approval.

Actually, he is correct that it isn't normal... It's just meaningless. "Not normal" =/= "bad".

[Jormengand]

It's entirely normal, and transgender people don't need your approval.

Actually, he is correct that it isn't normal... It's just meaningless. "Not normal" =/= "bad".

Indeed. Men, Americans and Atheists aren't "Normal," but I doubt that even the most fundamentalist "feminazi" anti-American is going to try to argue that being normal makes all those things wrong.

[The Truth and Light]

LGB does not include T. They are separate issues that require separate understanding. Both groups require rights, and both are being denied them. Also, they are partially linked. Sticking them together is a failed attempt to make us look like a little less of a minority.

No, sticking them together is a hopefully not failing attempt to unite two groups of people in opposition to one kind of bigotry.

It's not "sticking them together". People don't seem to realize how closely intertwined cissexism and heterosexism are. LGBT includes the T because we are alienated from society for the same reasons as the LGB.

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempt on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity. It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more.

[Ylkaeenplypkhkos]

That's probably because, in my experience, people, and Americans especially, don't even know that there's even such a thing as being transgender.

Hell, I didn't even know any transgender individuals until I met Luv.

I'm sure you've met others but they probably didn't want to mention it for the same reasons I prefer to hide it. As I've said, I don't know what else to do in these type of threads except be open about it so other transgender people don't have to go through as much discrimination and harassment as I've been through.

sorry about that. i changed my post.

I appreciate that.

out of curiosity how far are you in your gender transition? pre-hormone or post-hormone or somewhere in between?

[Jormengand]

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempted on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity. It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more.

They are equal and separate. One is to do with who you are attracted to, one is to do with what you identify as. They are linked, but they're not the same issue.

Also, I'm not cisgendered or transphobic, and would like you never again to accuse me of either.

[Luveria]

I'm sure you've met others but they probably didn't want to mention it for the same reasons I prefer to hide it. As I've said, I don't know what else to do in these type of threads except be open about it so other transgender people don't have to go through as much discrimination and harassment as I've been through.


I appreciate that.

out of curiosity how far are you in your gender transition? pre-hormone or post-hormone or somewhere in between?

I'm waiting to start seeing a gender therapist in a few weeks so can I begin hormones, but I expect it will be another few months until that actually begins.

[Zottistan]

No, sticking them together is a hopefully not failing attempt to unite two groups of people in opposition to one kind of bigotry.

It's not "sticking them together". People don't seem to realize how closely intertwined cissexism and heterosexism are. LGBT includes the T because we are alienated from society for the same reasons as the LGB.¹

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempt on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity.² It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more³.

1) Yeah, that's basically what I was saying. People with suffering from a problem uniting against the cause of that problem. Bigotry.

2)No. That's like saying that by claiming racism and sexism are different issues, but putting them together under human rights issues is alienating women. It's not "equal but separate". It's "equal, together and with a different issue".

3) Acknowledging that gender and sexual orientation are different things isn't transphobic...

[The Truth and Light]

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempted on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity. It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more.

They are equal and separate. One is to do with who you are attracted to, one is to do with what you identify as. They are linked, but they're not the same issue.

Also, I'm not cisgendered or transphobic, and would like you never again to accuse me of either.

Number one, I did not gender you. Don't get it twisted.

Number two, they are not linked - they are intertwined.

Of course they're not the same issue. Hell, discrimination against Gay men and discrimination against Lesbian Women are distinct as well - but they are intertwined, so it is ridiculous to try and separate them. Even Bisexual people face their own distinct brand of oppression apart from people who are monosexual. But they are part of the same movement for a reason.

Do you know what it is? I'll let you take a few guesses.

[The Truth and Light]

It's not "sticking them together". People don't seem to realize how closely intertwined cissexism and heterosexism are. LGBT includes the T because we are alienated from society for the same reasons as the LGB.¹

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempt on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity.² It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more³.

1) Yeah, that's basically what I was saying. People with suffering from a problem uniting against the cause of that problem. Bigotry.

2)No. That's like saying that by claiming racism and sexism are different issues, but putting them together under human rights issues is alienating women. It's not "equal but separate". It's "equal, together and with a different issue".

3) Acknowledging that gender and sexual orientation are different things isn't transphobic...

1) Agreed on that point.

2) Not what I was saying. I was railing against the removement of the T from LGBT. I find it likens to removing sexism from human rights concerns, as your analogy was.

3) No, but when Trans* people are alienated from the Queer community... that's trans*phobic.

[Jormengand]

They are equal and separate. One is to do with who you are attracted to, one is to do with what you identify as. They are linked, but they're not the same issue.

Also, I'm not cisgendered or transphobic, and would like you never again to accuse me of either.

Number one, I did not gender you. Don't get it twisted.

Number two, they are not linked - they are intertwined.

Of course they're not the same issue. Hell, discrimination against Gay men and discrimination against Lesbian Women are distinct as well - but they are intertwined, so it is ridiculous to try and separate them. Even Bisexual people face their own distinct brand of oppression apart from people who are monosexual. But they are part of the same movement for a reason.

Do you know what it is? I'll let you take a few guesses.

Number one, balls:

It's cisness and trans*phobia.

Number two, it's called a synonym.

Number three, the reason why LGB are linked together is because they're all sexuality issues.

[Jormengand]

2) Not what I was saying. I was railing against the removement of the T from LGBT. I find it likens to removing sexism from human rights concerns, as your analogy was.

3) No, but when Trans* people are alienated from the Queer community... that's trans*phobic.

2) We're not trying to say trans*-ness isn't a human rights concern. We're saying it's not a sexuality issue, and shouldn't be treated like one, because that only leads to confusion.

3) The Queer "Community" does not exist.

[The Truth and Light]

Number three, the reason why LGB are linked together is because they're all sexuality issues.

Not really.

Lesbians, Gays, and Bisexuals are linked together because they don't fit into a heterosexist society.

Trans* people don't either. But apparently we don't fit in a discussion about rights for Queer people. It's double alienation.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

3) The Queer "Community" does not exist.

Proof? It clearly exists where I live. We have our own culture and scene.

[The Truth and Light]

2) Not what I was saying. I was railing against the removement of the T from LGBT. I find it likens to removing sexism from human rights concerns, as your analogy was.

3) No, but when Trans* people are alienated from the Queer community... that's trans*phobic.

2) We're not trying to say trans*-ness isn't a human rights concern. We're saying it's not a sexuality issue, and shouldn't be treated like one, because that only leads to confusion.

Lol.

That's the common thread here? Trans* people don't have sexualities?

Got it.

[Bottle]

No, sticking them together is a hopefully not failing attempt to unite two groups of people in opposition to one kind of bigotry.

It's not "sticking them together". People don't seem to realize how closely intertwined cissexism and heterosexism are. LGBT includes the T because we are alienated from society for the same reasons as the LGB.

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempt on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity. It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more.

I'm going to try to formulate a thought here. Bear with me because I'm struggling.

I agree that heterosexism and cissexism are intertwined. I agree that the fundamental reasons why the T get alienated from society are the same reasons why the LG and B get alienated. I further agree that transphobia is a real problem in the LGB community.

With all that said, here's my malfunction:

I feel that much of trans activism relies upon the acceptance of the concept of binary gender. I realize trans people are not a monolith, but this is the general impression I get from the reading and interacting I have done thus far.

I, personally, believe binary gender is bullshit.

Therefore, I find myself wondering: Is it possible for me to say with any degree of honesty that I am a legit trans ally, when I believe the divisions into "men" and "women" are inherently garbage in the first place?

I support any person's right to modify their own body in whatever way suits them. I unequivocally support the idea that trans people should be treated no differently from any other person who modifies their body in any other way. But can I really say I support trans activism, when I'm actually interested in tearing down precisely the framework that allows trans identity to exist in the first place?

When it comes to gay rights it's a lot easier for me. I think gender is irrelevant, so obviously discriminating based on the gender of someone's partners is bullshit. My desire to destroy the practice of gendering does not interfere with that, it synergizes. I feel like that is not the case with trans rights.

[Jormengand]

But apparently we don't fit in a discussion about rights for Queer people. non-heterosexuals. It's double alienation.

Trans people have their own issues, which have NOTHING TO DO with sexuality, and I have absolutely no idea why you keep trying to insist they do.

[Melfar]

Genderqueer/queer- Someone whose gender is not female or male.

What would you be then?

[Bottle]

Genderqueer/queer- Someone whose gender is not female or male.

What would you be then?

Can't speak for anybody else, but I'm queer.

[The Truth and Light]

It's not "sticking them together". People don't seem to realize how closely intertwined cissexism and heterosexism are. LGBT includes the T because we are alienated from society for the same reasons as the LGB.

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempt on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity. It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more.

I'm going to try to formulate a thought here. Bear with me because I'm struggling.

I agree that heterosexism and cissexism are intertwined. I agree that the fundamental reasons why the T get alienated from society are the same reasons why the LG and B get alienated. I further agree that transphobia is a real problem in the LGB community.

With all that said, here's my malfunction:

I feel that much of trans activism relies upon the acceptance of the concept of binary gender. I realize trans people are not a monolith, but this is the general impression I get from the reading and interacting I have done thus far.

I, personally, believe binary gender is bullshit.

Therefore, I find myself wondering: Is it possible for me to say with any degree of honesty that I am a legit trans ally, when I believe the divisions into "men" and "women" are inherently garbage in the first place?

I support any person's right to modify their own body in whatever way suits them. I unequivocally support the idea that trans people should be treated no differently from any other person who modifies their body in any other way. But can I really say I support trans activism, when I'm actually interested in tearing down precisely the framework that allows trans identity to exist in the first place?

When it comes to gay rights it's a lot easier for me. I think gender is irrelevant, so obviously discriminating based on the gender of someone's partners is bullshit. My desire to destroy the practice of gendering does not interfere with that, it synergizes. I feel like that is not the case with trans rights.

Fair disclaimer: I'm Genderqueer. I don't fit on a gender binary.

I feel like, yeah, a gender binary is problematic, but not for the same reasons and I certainly don't want to destroy gender. Could you elaborate on why you want to dismantle the concept of gender?

[Jormengand]

2) We're not trying to say trans*-ness isn't a human rights concern. We're saying it's not a sexuality issue, and shouldn't be treated like one, because that only leads to confusion.

Lol.

That's the common thread here? Trans* people don't have sexualities?

Got it.

I know that's not what I'm saying. You know that's not why I'm saying. Put the straw man down, you're hurting him.

3) The Queer "Community" does not exist.

Proof? It clearly exists where I live. We have our own culture and scene.

There are queer communities. There is not The Queer Community, in the sense people use it.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

It's not "sticking them together". People don't seem to realize how closely intertwined cissexism and heterosexism are. LGBT includes the T because we are alienated from society for the same reasons as the LGB.

This idea that Queer and Trans* issues are somehow "equal but separate" is just a thinly veiled attempt on the part of cis Queer people to alienate Trans* people from the single movement that can help us gain recognition and humanity. It's cisness and trans*phobia. Nothing more.

I'm going to try to formulate a thought here. Bear with me because I'm struggling.

I agree that heterosexism and cissexism are intertwined. I agree that the fundamental reasons why the T get alienated from society are the same reasons why the LG and B get alienated. I further agree that transphobia is a real problem in the LGB community.

With all that said, here's my malfunction:

I feel that much of trans activism relies upon the acceptance of the concept of binary gender. I realize trans people are not a monolith, but this is the general impression I get from the reading and interacting I have done thus far.

I, personally, believe binary gender is bullshit.

Therefore, I find myself wondering: Is it possible for me to say with any degree of honesty that I am a legit trans ally, when I believe the divisions into "men" and "women" are inherently garbage in the first place?

I support any person's right to modify their own body in whatever way suits them. I unequivocally support the idea that trans people should be treated no differently from any other person who modifies their body in any other way. But can I really say I support trans activism, when I'm actually interested in tearing down precisely the framework that allows trans identity to exist in the first place?

When it comes to gay rights it's a lot easier for me. I think gender is irrelevant, so obviously discriminating based on the gender of someone's partners is bullshit. My desire to destroy the practice of gendering does not interfere with that, it synergizes. I feel like that is not the case with trans rights.

Except the group most likely to know about the bullshit the binary gender is, and to support us non-binary people the most, are our fellow trans*?

[Bottle]

But apparently we don't fit in a discussion about rights for Queer people. non-heterosexuals. It's double alienation.

Trans people have their own issues, which have NOTHING TO DO with sexuality, and I have absolutely no idea why you keep trying to insist they do.

TTaL is probably continuing to disagree because your arguments have been unconvincing.

I, too, am unconvinced. Perhaps you can present more arguments?

[Melfar]

What would you be then?

Can't speak for anybody else, but I'm queer.

So your gender is queer? Is that correct?

[The Truth and Light]

But apparently we don't fit in a discussion about rights for Queer people. non-heterosexuals. It's double alienation.

Trans people have their own issues, which have NOTHING TO DO with sexuality

Okay, I'm going to walk away laughing. This is ridiculous.

Trans* issues are in a great part related to sexuality. To deny this is intended ignorance.