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[Draft] Commend Red Back

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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[Draft] Commend Red Back

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:59 pm

Numerous figures over the years have suggested that Red Back deserves a Commend more than a Condemn, and he currently holds neither. I’d like to change that. I’m drafting this as a Commend, but open to swapping it to the other if that sentiment is no longer present, or if the community thinks the facts are ultimately too weak in favor of a commend. This is definitely a rough and quick draft, mostly to establish the facts on the table and an order of progression for them. Very interested in feedback, both in terms of the resolution and in terms of any facts I may have missed.

The Security Council,

Noting that the region Red Back was originally located in was raided by outside nations,

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace and attempting to understand the motivations of the invaders, eventually becoming one of them,

Recalling that Red Back and its puppet nations, including but not limited to TBH Commander, went on to found several regions,

Admiring that one such region, The Black Hawks, has stood both sizable and active under the leadership of Red Back for over a decade,

Recognizing that for over ten years, Red Back has been a role model for both that region and the faction of raiding as a whole, by sharing their wisdom and experience in areas of culture, morality, and tactics,

Applauding that The Black Hawks under Red Back's leadership have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, in large due to specific actions of Red Back including:
  • Directing the region to cooperate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
  • Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used on any operation they were present on, and
  • Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding, as well as the ostracization of those who perpetuated such acts,

Acknowledging that Red Back played a significant role in pioneering several modern military tactics used universally by all factions to this day,

Respecting that Equilism, one of the world oldest and most respected democracies, has stated that Red Back provided essential support in antifascist operations against the region Nazi,

Impressed that Red Back's achievements are so universally notable and respected that the nation is known to be respected and admired even by those who oppose its actions and alignment,

Hereby Commends Red Back


The Security Council,

Noting that the region Red Back was once located in was raided by outside nations,

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace, attempting to under the motivations of the invaders, and eventually becoming one of them,

Recalling that Red Back and his puppet nations, including but not limited to TBH Commander, went on to found several regions, and eventually became founder of the large region The Black Hawks, over a decade ago,

Recognizing that Red Back has led that region from a position of wise guidance and direct military leadership consistently for over ten years, remaining to this day a role model for all militant nations,

Appreciating that Red Back's actions directly inspired the security measures present at the borders to Hell, themselves commended by this body,

Applauding that The Black Hawks have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, under Red Back's leadership and due to that nation's specific actions, such as:
  • Directing the region to corporate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
  • Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used throughout the faction, and
  • Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding,

Acknowledging that Red Back played a significant role in pioneering modern military tactics used universally by all factions to this day,

Respecting that Equilism, one of the world oldest democracies, has stated that Red Back provided essential support in antifascist operations against the region Nazi,

Impressed that Red Back's achievements are so universally notable and respected, even a legendary Defender nation has awarded it a title of "most admired,"

Hereby Commends Red Back


I've tried to avoid lingering on his contributions to TBH for too long, and instead focus centrally on his roles in a) being a general role model of a good native and raider, b) directly and personally leading TBH to the place it holds, as a moral leader in good behavior across raiding, and c) being a historic figure in the creation of update raiding tactics, as well as the acceptance of post-influence gameplay. All of this, of course, has involved heavy dodging of R4 violations!

Below, I'll list most of the information I've gathered (excuse the rough transposition from my notes), including some stuff that was not used here but could perhaps be used in a condemnation instead.

Red Back on his own history:
"I came involved in TBH after the region I was WA Delegate (then UN) of,3 Mile Island was raided by TBH. At that point I was not aware of the raiding / defending side of the game as I had only been playing with the game for a few weeks. I got talking to both sides & in the end I thought the raider side was more interesting. I chose to join TBH after talking to Halcones."

"After we split away from The Blades of Conquest I found myself in the leadership group."

"I was heavily involved in the start of update raiding but back then I was using spread sheets with update times on & a puppet with a pile of dossier nations to track the update to determine when to jump."

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/raiderc ... -t325.html

TBH History:
Founder of multiple famous regions, 2nd founder of TBH, CiC to this day, and has guided it well
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=885950
“He has contributed to several notable raids include Forest many years ago that reignited TBH”
viewtopic.php?p=31818792#p31818792
And is a regular piler to this day!

Leading TBH to the highest international standing, and to improve all of raiding:
Has been a driving force, and a standout in comparison to the founders of other large raider regions, in building a good community.
Contrast predator response to DEN/TBR - viewtopic.php?p=28272612#p28272612
also drove our tool policy
viewtopic.php?p=28321786#p28321786
also TRE viewtopic.php?p=33766293#p33766293
I can also personally vouch, as a member of the Council of Hawks through all of these events, that Red Back took an active and leading role in ensuring TBH had not just a strong stance on each, but a stance so strong that it would hopefully define the behavior of the rest of the alignment.

Contributions to all of raiding, many years ago:
Pioneer in timing and orchestrating update raiding -
viewtopic.php?p=4968008#p4968008
viewtopic.php?p=4967828#p4967828
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=99254&p=4977505#p4977505
viewtopic.php?p=4979250#p4979250
Early supporter of Influence in R/D
viewtopic.php?p=742748#p742748

Commendation from Equilism:
Provided Essential Support for the Equilism Raid on Nazi
http://www.equilism.org/forum/index.php ... perations/

Personal Military Accomplishments in TBH:
Assisted Face Dancers in the infiltration, destruction, and refounding of the CCCP
viewtopic.php?p=6631793#p6631793
Eagle Clan
2010 meltdown of the year
Red Back helped infiltrate and destroy it from within
Various old forum posts including: viewtopic.php?p=1450854#p1450854
Long Term Sleeper in Hippiedom viewtopic.php?p=11044211#p11044211 ; viewtopic.php?p=11040061#p11040061
…and Hell, 2012 edition, helping spawn their best in class COMMENDED security
viewtopic.php?p=11100021#p11100021

Of Crazed on his contributions to TBH:
(From discord)
"I mean, if you asked me specifically, he was a big part of making TBH a serious org. Halcones was always full of shit and talking about how the region would have 10k nations and a thousand updaters and it made him hard to work with."

"I don't remember too much specifically anymore, just he was easy to work with and TBH as we know it started more with him than anyone else imo"
See also: viewtopic.php?p=34295103#p34295103 and subsequent post

Most Admired by Falconias
viewtopic.php?p=997288#p997288
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Wed May 01, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:52 am

Hi Souls,

Even as a rough and ready draft the quality is so much better than 90% of the stuff that gets posted here.

No questions at the moment, but I’m looking forward to seeing how you develop this.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:09 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Hi Souls,

Even as a rough and ready draft the quality is so much better than 90% of the stuff that gets posted here.

No questions at the moment, but I’m looking forward to seeing how you develop this.


Thanks - I do have two resolutions under my belt, but this one is definitely the closest to home I’ve approached yet, and compared to commend Euro, contains a very different and far less common approach to commendability.

Particularly, my clauses here are more sparse than in my previous resolutions, but that’s in large becuase I’ve struggled to go into much further detail without running afoul of R4.




Also, in case anyone didn’t explore my spoilered notes too deeply, I’d like to expressly note that CiC Red Back did, quite firmly and personally, spearhead the discussed TBH council announcements that have led the way in making raiding a better faction. Each time, he insisted firmly on strong action, in order to make TBH a role model and trend setter for the community. It’s perhaps worth discussing that some of these items might be better approached as commendable on behalf of The Council of Hawks, representing TBH as a whole, but I both think such a resolution is less likely to pass and think that frankly, TBH has two SC badges, and that’s plenty, for now :P

If necessary, I’d also be happy to delve deeper into those events and how TBH’s strong statements as pushed for by Red Back have made Gameplay as a whole better. I think many readers/editors here have enough of an understanding of the past few years of GP to get it, but...we’ll see. The long and short of it is that Red Back has personally been a role model of leadership, upstanding trustworthiness, and reliability (which almost every characterization of him expresses), and even in his “twilight days,” as one might call them, his directives have played no small role in making TBH the upstanding, accepting, and leading region it is.

If further proof beyond my testimony of his direct involvement in these matters is required, I can try to declassify some council logs/posts, but for now, what I can share is spoilered above.

In regards to *factual* input from others, I’d particular appreciate any further recollections about Red Back’s roles in adapting to influence mechanics, the addition of an “update” period, and the early days of switching nations and raiding multiple regions in a single update. Those methods and innovations formed the basics of military Gameplay tactics used through today, by all sides of MilGP, and I think that sections is one of the stronger arguements present for SC recognition.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Guy
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Postby Guy » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:26 am

Condemnations of invaders have either been to express genuine disgust at their actions (less common these days, but see SC#1 as the archetypical example), or to congratulate them on successfully playing the "bad guys".

To reduce the entirety of invaders' contributions to "successful villains" and IC-condemning them for it runs afoul of reducing their contributions to the game to just that. Indeed, simply being good at invading does not necessarily enhance the game. There is a lot more to ensuring gameplay (and the invasion game specifically) work well in all its aspects - for invaders, natives and defenders; mechnically and socially; and so on.

It won't surprise those who know me that I have strong views on the invasion game and what type of actions contribute to it, nor that an invader organisation being successful is necessarily a positive thing. But I think that where a case exists that an invader has done a lot to contribute to the game, a commendation is an open, and possibly the correct, response.
Last edited by Guy on Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Gilded Star
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Postby The Gilded Star » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:30 am

The subject of the draft isn't one I'm familiar with to have an opinion, but nonetheless I'd like to echo BBD's sentiments that reading this was a refreshing change of pace compared to some of its contemporaries.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:36 am

Thanks, Guy. Glad to hear you’re open to the concept, even without comment on the specifics.



The Gilded Star wrote:The subject of the draft isn't one I'm familiar with to have an opinion, but nonetheless I'd like to echo BBD's sentiments that reading this was a refreshing change of pace compared to some of its contemporaries.


Thank you!

It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s a common trend - the height of Red Back’s activity was many years ago, and his contributions more recently, while still important, have been far more “behind the scenes” even from the rest of Gameplay, even from the rest of TBH outside the Council of Hawks. Those who either are old enough to personally remember the former or positioned to be privileged with the latter probably aren’t too common! You might even say that’s one reason for this resolution - to bring the contributions of this player back into a broader light, and to do so before people who remember them firsthand are even more uncommon.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:39 am

It's a very well written proposal.

I think commending a raider essentially for raiding (an oversimplifcation, but still essentially true), despite the fairly strong case you're making, is going to be a tough sell. I'm not sure I would go this route. That said, Guy is one of the people I would expect to oppose it, and he isn't -- so maybe I'm wrong there. It will be interesting to see what happens. Personally, I can't say I've made up my mind how I feel about it yet.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:45 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:It's a very well written proposal.

I think commending a raider essentially for raiding (an oversimplifcation, but still essentially true), despite the fairly strong case you're making, is going to be a tough sell. I'm not sure I would go this route. That said, Guy is one of the people I would expect to oppose it, and he isn't -- so maybe I'm wrong there. It will be interesting to see what happens. Personally, I can't say I've made up my mind how I feel about it yet.


It’s definitely a possible route to fall back to phrasing everything in big scary terms and playing up some of the individual raids in my notes that were left out of this draft, but only at the cost of excluding a few notable things in this draft. While as Guy noted, the usual route is playing up the “successful bad guy” line, and that could be valid here too, I truly think that Red Back’s role as an individual role model, a driving force in making TBH a faction-wide role model, and contributions to developing the core mechanics of modern GP are universally impactful and appreciated enough to make a commendation possible.

I think one way to approach it would be to ask of all sides, “would you like to see more players like Red Back?” Or perhaps “has what they’ve done made the game better for a wide variety of people?” With many the subjects of many condemnations, even the respectful ones, I’m not sure the response would be entirely in favor. I think in this case, it might.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Postby Armaros » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:19 am

While I personally support this, find it a well-written proposal and think this should pass, I am afraid it will be a tough job to pull off a commendation of a raider. I'm only aware of one ever passing, Evil Wolf, and that one already is controversial, to say the least (although the circumstances are different).

That said, the fact Guy seems to be open to the idea could prove that I'm wrong and that there definitely is a base of support. I'm really hoping this passes, and best of luck. :)
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Fedele
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Postby Fedele » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:57 am

Red Back is someone, like Evil Wolf, who has contributed far more culturally and politically than just a string of successful invasions. This strikes me as a compelling commendation.

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Postby Drop Your Pants » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:12 am

I'd support a commend for RB if it was flushed out a bit.

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace, attempting to under the motivations of the invaders, and eventually becoming one of them,

Is that meant to be understand?

Applauding that The Black Hawks have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, under Red Back's leadership and due to that nation's specific actions, such as:
Directing the region to corporate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used throughout the faction, and
Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding,

While I get that you're referring to scripts and OOC drama here, it only makes sense if you're coming from a GP perspective. A lot of regions who completely ignore our little drama hole won't have a clue what's going on.


Although my biggest problem is you calling Falc a legendary defender :lol: Even Falc wouldn't go that far, and his ego could fill up 3 barns.
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Postby Fedele » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:38 am

Appreciating that Red Back's actions directly inspired the security measures present at the borders to Hell, themselves commended by this body,


I think you need to make a real case for this part being included or toss it out. Is what he did to inspire the security measures commendable? Also, Hell had been raided more times than a millennial's 401k so was it actually because of RB or was he one of many prompts?

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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:02 pm

Armaros wrote:While I personally support this, find it a well-written proposal and think this should pass, I am afraid it will be a tough job to pull off a commendation of a raider. I'm only aware of one ever passing, Evil Wolf, and that one already is controversial, to say the least (although the circumstances are different).

That said, the fact Guy seems to be open to the idea could prove that I'm wrong and that there definitely is a base of support. I'm really hoping this passes, and best of luck. :)


Evil Wolf's largely is the sort to focus on his deep contributions internally within a number of regions, with an antifascist footnote. If anything, no offense intended to EW, I think I can make more of a case for Red Back having contributed to wider aspects of the game. I've seen sentiment around here recently that has begun to shy away from acts purely in service of a region being less commendable than they once were, making this particularly relevant.

Fedele wrote:Red Back is someone, like Evil Wolf, who has contributed far more culturally and politically than just a string of successful invasions. This strikes me as a compelling commendation.

Fedele wrote:
Appreciating that Red Back's actions directly inspired the security measures present at the borders to Hell, themselves commended by this body,


I think you need to make a real case for this part being included or toss it out. Is what he did to inspire the security measures commendable? Also, Hell had been raided more times than a millennial's 401k so was it actually because of RB or was he one of many prompts?


Thanks for the feedback! It's a fair point that that point is kinda ... smartassy. I also might have my history mixed up. I though I remembered that a TBH raid of hell led to it being in a state where there was then a fash raid, and thus triggering a chain of events that led to it's current state of security, which I then noted has been mentioned in their own commendation. So, even if accurate, it's certainly not very "direct." On top of that, looking at some timelines, I might have my dates/sequences of events mixed up. Those two things might be further apart than I thought, and/or there might have been a later TBH raid than this one that RB was heavily involved in. Maybe we should get Stalker in here to weight in, lol.

On that note, any ideas *to* incorporate RB's raiding prowess into this? Some things I considered were noting that he's, several times, worked to infiltrate and destroy people who made themselves enemies of TBH (con: while this has some passing similarity to some clauses in Commend EW, I don't think it'd stand up today as part of an SC commend), or perhaps a stronger clause delving into how he's been a role model for other raiders militarily as well as culturally/morally (con: also not sure if "is a very good model raider for other raiders" is commendable). I'd just hate to leave out any mention at all of his raiding work besides Nazi, and at the same time don't think there's enough content for both a commend and a condemn in which to mention them.

Drop Your Pants wrote:I'd support a commend for RB if it was flushed out a bit.

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace, attempting to under the motivations of the invaders, and eventually becoming one of them,

Is that meant to be understand?

Applauding that The Black Hawks have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, under Red Back's leadership and due to that nation's specific actions, such as:
Directing the region to corporate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used throughout the faction, and
Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding,

While I get that you're referring to scripts and OOC drama here, it only makes sense if you're coming from a GP perspective. A lot of regions who completely ignore our little drama hole won't have a clue what's going on.


Although my biggest problem is you calling Falc a legendary defender :lol: Even Falc wouldn't go that far, and his ego could fill up 3 barns.


Yes, my typo.

You're right that it's potentially an obscure reference to some audiences, but I'd say it's also probably familiar enough to where the vast majority of SC votes lie. While it can be worked on a bit, I'm also not sure that anything R4-compliant I can put there would make sense to a stranger to that side of the game. I don't see this as a huge problem, though - there's dozens of commendation clauses on record that make little sense to people not active in the relevant parts of the game.

On the Falc line - I mean, he is one of the few big-defenders-from-before-my-time that I could name xD That clause is a little shoehorned, but perhaps I could make it a more general statement as to how RB's known for earning respect and admiration even from his enemies. If any other old enemies of his would like to weigh in as such, it would give me more backing for such a line.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:27 pm

Support naturally, in principle (suggestions made without malice, I naturally suggestedit in the negative)

Noting that the region Red Back was once located in was raided by outside nations,

Looking at your documentation, it sounds like said region was his first (relatively). I think "was originally located in" might flow/sound better here
Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace, attempting to under the motivations of the invaders, and eventually becoming one of them,

Not sure what I dislike about this wording, but "chose a path of peace and attempted to understand... ... and eventually became one of them," sounds a bit better I think.
Recalling that Red Back and his puppet nations, including but not limited to TBH Commander, went on to found several regions, and eventually became founder of the large region The Black Hawks, over a decade ago,

Good, good (thought the other regions might be worth mentioning, if notable)
Recognizing that Red Back has led that region from a position of wise guidance and direct military leadership consistently for over ten years, remaining to this day a role model for all militant nations,

I'm assuming this is intended to be saying that RB led the way in being a decent human being and raider at the same time, might want to be a bit clearer on that.
Appreciating that Red Back's actions directly inspired the security measures present at the borders to Hell, themselves commended by this body,

Not quite sure if being involved in raids that inspire such is something to be considered Commendable :p
Applauding that The Black Hawks have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, under Red Back's leadership and due to that nation's specific actions, such as:

This is good
Directing the region to corporate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,

Specifically mentioning Predator by name is fine last I understood
Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used throughout the faction, and

While I too wish we could police everyone else, I think it'd be more accurate to say "used by members of The Black Hawks"
Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding,

"Supporting the ostracisation (unsure on spelling that) and condemnation of other raiding organizations led by nations actively and gleefully being homophobic, [etc/whatever else TRE did]

Acknowledging that Red Back played a significant role in pioneering modern military tactics used universally by all factions to this day,

Examples/specifics would be good
Respecting that Equilism, one of the world oldest democracies, has stated that Red Back provided essential support in antifascist operations against the region Nazi,

Good, maybe say something about the former being a highly respected region (I assume they were or are)
Impressed that Red Back's achievements are so universally notable and respected, even a legendary Defender nation has awarded it a title of "most admired,"

Something about "despite opposing all of RB's actions"


Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:On that note, any ideas *to* incorporate RB's raiding prowess into this? Some things I considered were noting that he's, several times, worked to infiltrate and destroy people who made themselves enemies of TBH (con: while this has some passing similarity to some clauses in Commend EW, I don't think it'd stand up today as part of an SC commend), or perhaps a stronger clause delving into how he's been a role model for other raiders militarily as well as culturally/morally (con: also not sure if "is a very good model raider for other raiders" is commendable). I'd just hate to leave out any mention at all of his raiding work besides Nazi, and at the same time don't think there's enough content for both a commend and a condemn in which to mention them.

Compare them to other raids around the same time done by raiders being douchecanoes (I assume there's some there)

Which brings me to my thought that the best argument you have is one that RB is raider who directly tried (and largely succeeded) in making at least TBH somewhere that's fairly upstanding, aside from the physical act of raiding/region destruction. In other words, RB looks to have tried to ensure raiding wasn't full of douchecanoes, even if that compromised the ability to pull off bigger raids or defend against Libs.
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Marilyn Manson Freaks
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Postby Marilyn Manson Freaks » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:05 pm

Full support. Maybe a clause about Red Back's foundation and what he did before raiding?
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:40 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:On the Falc line - I mean, he is one of the few big-defenders-from-before-my-time that I could name xD That clause is a little shoehorned, but perhaps I could make it a more general statement as to how RB's known for earning respect and admiration even from his enemies. If any other old enemies of his would like to weigh in as such, it would give me more backing for such a line.

I'll weigh in, RB is one of the best raiders i've ever played with. Very friendly too, even before the R/D lines started to blur.
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Arlo
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Postby Arlo » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:35 pm

"Appreciating that Red Back's actions directly inspired the security measures present at the borders to Hell, themselves commended by this body,"

Just gonna say I hate this line a LOT and may campaign against it.

You want to commend someone, because they attacked someone else and forced that someone else to defend themselves? Not feeling that.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:27 pm

New Draft:

The Security Council,

Noting that the region Red Back was originally located in was raided by outside nations,

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace and attempting to understand the motivations of the invaders, eventually eventually becoming one of them,

Recalling that Red Back and its puppet nations, including but not limited to TBH Commander, went on to found several regions,

Admiring that one such region, The Black Hawks, has stood both sizable and active under the leadership of Red Back for over a decade,

Recognizing that for over ten years, Red Back has been a role model for both that region and the faction of raiding as a whole, by sharing his wisdom in areas of culture, morality, and tactics,

Applauding that The Black Hawks under Red Back's leadership have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, in large due to specific actions of Red Back including:
  • Directing the region to corporate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
  • Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used on any operation they were present on, and
  • Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding, as well as the ostracization of those who perpetuated such acts,

Acknowledging that Red Back played a significant role in pioneering several modern military tactics used universally by all factions to this day,

Respecting that Equilism, one of the world oldest and most respected democracies, has stated that Red Back provided essential support in antifascist operations against the region Nazi,

Impressed that Red Back's achievements are so universally notable and respected, the nation is known to be respected and admired even by those who oppose his actions and alignment,

Hereby Commends Red Back
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Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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Nightkill
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Postby Nightkill » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:44 pm

You have two "eventually" in the observing clause. And I'm still against commending raiders for raiding/creating raider regions. Against whole-heartedly.

Edit: Also, in the last "Respecting" clause you have "world" and I think it should be "world's"?
Last edited by Nightkill on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eumaeus
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Postby Eumaeus » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:48 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:The Security Council,

Noting that the region Red Back was originally located in was raided by outside nations,

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace and attempting to understand the motivations of the invaders, eventually eventually becoming one of them,

Repeated word.
Recalling that Red Back and its puppet nations, including but not limited to TBH Commander, went on to found several regions,

Admiring that one such region, The Black Hawks, has stood both sizable and active under the leadership of Red Back for over a decade,

Recognizing that for over ten years, Red Back has been a role model for both that region and the faction of raiding as a whole, by sharing his wisdom in areas of culture, morality, and tactics,

Rule 4b violation in red.
Applauding that The Black Hawks under Red Back's leadership have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, in large due to specific actions of Red Back including:
  • Directing the region to corporate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
  • Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used on any operation they were present on, and
  • Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding, as well as the ostracization of those who perpetuated such acts,

I think you mean "cooperate".
Acknowledging that Red Back played a significant role in pioneering several modern military tactics used universally by all factions to this day,

Respecting that Equilism, one of the world oldest and most respected democracies, has stated that Red Back provided essential support in antifascist operations against the region Nazi,

Impressed that Red Back's achievements are so universally notable and respected, the nation is known to be respected and admired even by those who oppose his actions and alignment,

I would use a semicolon instead of a comma there.

Overall there is less detail than I would like (some clause, especially the first, are kind of vague). I also think some rephrasing of certain clauses may be necessary, but that's up to your own discretion. I have only spoken to RB a few times, but he has always been someone I respected a great deal.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Wed May 01, 2019 5:26 pm

Minor edits made (to version posted in OP) to address these, and a few other sneaking R4 violations.

In regards to detail, I feel sometimes less is more. I cold say, name his home region, but it's immaterial to the point of the line.

I may move to submit if there's not further significant feedback!
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Wed May 01, 2019 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
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http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Blood Wine
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Postby Blood Wine » Thu May 02, 2019 11:18 pm

Interesting, support
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon May 06, 2019 4:19 pm

I will be submitting in a few hours. Last call for input!
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Discord Chan
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Founded: Jan 26, 2018
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Postby Discord Chan » Mon May 06, 2019 4:59 pm

The Security Council,

Noting that the region Red Back was originally located in was raided by outside nations,

Observing that Red Back choose a path of peace and attempting to understand the motivations of the invaders, eventually becoming one of them,

I don't really see this as commendable, to be honest. Many other raiders come from similar situations, and I don't understand why Red Back should be singled out for this being a commendable thing.

Recalling that Red Back and its puppet nations, including but not limited to TBH Commander, went on to found several regions,

Admiring that one such region, The Black Hawks, has stood both sizable and active under the leadership of Red Back for over a decade,

Ah yes, The Black Hawks. One of the longest lasting raiding regions, destroying multiple communities over the years for fun. Why is this a commendable thing?? It's not commendable, it's condemnable.

Recognizing that for over ten years, Red Back has been a role model for both that region and the faction of raiding as a whole, by sharing their wisdom and experience in areas of culture, morality, and tactics,

So teaching others how to raid innocent communities is commendable now? And teaching them how to destroy said communities is commendable? No, none of that is commendable. It's condemnable.

Applauding that The Black Hawks under Red Back's leadership have been international leaders in enforcing standards of conduct and conflict among similarly aligned regions, in large due to specific actions of Red Back including:
Directing the region to cooperate with global authorities in their investigation of the use of illegal weapons of war, in contrast to the resistance found in similar regions,
Insisting the region develop a procedure to absolutely ensure illegal weapons of war were never again used on any operation they were present on, and
Supporting the region in the condemnation of human rights violations across the world of raiding, as well as the ostracization of those who perpetuated such acts,

No argument there Souls, those are good commendable aspects.

Acknowledging that Red Back played a significant role in pioneering several modern military tactics used universally by all factions to this day,

Can you fill me in on this? If they're used in defending as well as raiding it *may* be commendable, but if it's not then not really. I'm guessing it is though by the way you worded it?

Respecting that Equilism, one of the world oldest and most respected democracies, has stated that Red Back provided essential support in antifascist operations against the region Nazi,

Impressed that Red Back's achievements are so universally notable and respected that the nation is known to be respected and admired even by those who oppose its actions and alignment,

Hereby Commends Red Back

Another part I can't argue with. It seems about half, or just over half, of your proposal is trying to commend Red Back for founding a raider region and teaching new generations of raiders. These aren't commendable qualities, and I personally would be upset if this passed because people chose to overlook the overwhelmingly raider actions in favor of TBH championing better OOC conduct within the last two years. (Or longer, I don't really know enough about TBH to be honest.)

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Posts: 6337
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Mon May 06, 2019 5:30 pm

I could say many things in reply, but the most simple thing to do is to quote Guy.

Guy wrote:Condemnations of invaders have either been to express genuine disgust at their actions (less common these days, but see SC#1 as the archetypical example), or to congratulate them on successfully playing the "bad guys".

To reduce the entirety of invaders' contributions to "successful villains" and IC-condemning them for it runs afoul of reducing their contributions to the game to just that. Indeed, simply being good at invading does not necessarily enhance the game. There is a lot more to ensuring gameplay (and the invasion game specifically) work well in all its aspects - for invaders, natives and defenders; mechnically and socially; and so on.

It won't surprise those who know me that I have strong views on the invasion game and what type of actions contribute to it, nor that an invader organisation being successful is necessarily a positive thing. But I think that where a case exists that an invader has done a lot to contribute to the game, a commendation is an open, and possibly the correct, response.


I firmly believe that Red Back’s collective history as a leader, a regionbuilder, a teacher, and a positive influence on an entire faction of the game, which in turn has granted him near universal respect, is worthy of objective commendation.

I’ve crafted this attempting to focus on many of the same traits featured in other commendations - personal achievement, prominent impact on regions, impact well beyond any single region, helping others, etc. I’d rather focus on debates of those merits than whether raiders can *ever* be commended.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Mon May 06, 2019 5:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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