Balance to Invader / Defender Game

[Red Back]

I personally would love to run normal raids, but the games mechanics have made this imposable for me to do. With the change of the time update happens & the having it twice. This is not just me who it affected, this caused TBH to fall into inactivity. So what do we do, we found a way to be active. This whole tactic was born out of watching fenda liberate regions from us with there ability to time there jump to within a few seconds on some occasions. All we did was take this & find a way to get a better consistency by using the mechanics of the game. So should it be outlawed?? Maybe those that are complaining should go & figure a way to stop us.

In the end all we have done is become more active & I'm sure the people behind this would not complain as it should brings them more money which I hope they use on developing more features for the game.

[Ad Infinitum]

I personally would love to run normal raids, but the games mechanics have made this imposable for me to do. With the change of the time update happens & the having it twice. This is not just me who it affected, this caused TBH to fall into inactivity. So what do we do, we found a way to be active. This whole tactic was born out of watching fenda liberate regions from us with there ability to time there jump to within a few seconds on some occasions. All we did was take this & find a way to get a better consistency by using the mechanics of the game. So should it be outlawed?? Maybe those that are complaining should go & figure a way to stop us.

In the end all we have done is become more active & I'm sure the people behind this would not complain as it should brings them more money which I hope they use on developing more features for the game.

Point of curiosity: What's different about your circumstances that doesn't seem to apply to all other raiding organizations? If this was literally the only way to raid, it would be the only kind of raid that we're seeing. Again, look at Middle Earth. A classic raid, beautifully executed, and they've held the region for weeks now. Why can't it always be like that?

[Red Back]

I personally would love to run normal raids, but the games mechanics have made this imposable for me to do. With the change of the time update happens & the having it twice. This is not just me who it affected, this caused TBH to fall into inactivity. So what do we do, we found a way to be active. This whole tactic was born out of watching fenda liberate regions from us with there ability to time there jump to within a few seconds on some occasions. All we did was take this & find a way to get a better consistency by using the mechanics of the game. So should it be outlawed?? Maybe those that are complaining should go & figure a way to stop us.

In the end all we have done is become more active & I'm sure the people behind this would not complain as it should brings them more money which I hope they use on developing more features for the game.

Point of curiosity: What's different about your circumstances that doesn't seem to apply to all other raiding organizations? If this was literally the only way to raid, it would be the only kind of raid that we're seeing. Again, look at Middle Earth. A classic raid, beautifully executed, and they've held the region for weeks now. Why can't it always be like that?

Its all down to logistics, we do not have the members to cover 2 updates, we would need to assign at least 3-4 troops on to the point puppet therefore diluting out WA presence in the region as those members wouldn't be able have other WA puppets. As for other raider regions they run there military in a way they feel is best for them but as this thread states in the opening post TBH are the worst offenders so I'm only talking from our point of view.

[Evil Wolf]

Red Back has a very good point. Classical raids have always drained the interest of our newbies and its not a great learning experience for them either. Unless they are involved in the initial invasion all their doing is coming in and sitting as back up. They learn nothing doing this.

Sure raids like Middle Earth are fun to watch and can motivate the organization if played off right, but my newbies aren't getting anything out of this other than a nice show. In order to teach them correctly, you really need to train them on smaller targets and train them often. When TBH gets done with this I have no doubt they will have raiders who have been Crashing for only a few months at a skill level comparable to troops trained for half a year under the old tactics.

They simply get more training in a much shorter amount of time than conventionally possible without using the update method TBH are employing.

[Ballotonia]

If you say it required you to be in the region for two updates before you could do it unless you had a high/higher number of endorsements. So potentially it would only take 12 hours (if you moved in a couple seconds before it updated). That would have very little affect on natives as they would likely be long term residents.

More simple: no access to regional controls if the delegate is in power less than 2 updates. Or 18 hours, whichever is easiest to code. This I like. It means that if one wants to do something to a region, one needs to stick around more than just a few seconds.

NB: this also affects liberations... it means that a prolonged battle could break out for control of a region between invaders and defenders, with the delegacy flipping back and forth and neither side being able to kick the opposition out until they've held the delegacy for two consecutive updates.

Ballotonia

[Halcones]

No, just no. TBH is already having a tremendously hard time being able to do what people say they can do. Last update it was more difficult to predict variance, and only twice did we get a timing of 2 seconds. Most of our 13 raids could have easily been defended against. There really is no need to moan - we aren't as good as you're saying.

The game is already hard enough for raiders. There's no need to make it harder. We've adapted enough so far. It's time for the defenders to have some practise adapting.

[Improving Wordiness]

If you say it required you to be in the region for two updates before you could do it unless you had a high/higher number of endorsements. So potentially it would only take 12 hours (if you moved in a couple seconds before it updated). That would have very little affect on natives as they would likely be long term residents.

More simple: no access to regional controls if the delegate is in power less than 2 updates. Or 18 hours, whichever is easiest to code. This I like. It means that if one wants to do something to a region, one needs to stick around more than just a few seconds.

NB: this also affects liberations... it means that a prolonged battle could break out for control of a region between invaders and defenders, with the delegacy flipping back and forth and neither side being able to kick the opposition out until they've held the delegacy for two consecutive updates.

Ballotonia

This seems like a good idea. Certainly would mean both invaders / defenders having to invest time in the regions. Could make for some interesting battles.

[Unibot II]

If you say it required you to be in the region for two updates before you could do it unless you had a high/higher number of endorsements. So potentially it would only take 12 hours (if you moved in a couple seconds before it updated). That would have very little affect on natives as they would likely be long term residents.

More simple: no access to regional controls if the delegate is in power less than 2 updates. Or 18 hours, whichever is easiest to code. This I like. It means that if one wants to do something to a region, one needs to stick around more than just a few seconds.

NB: this also affects liberations... it means that a prolonged battle could break out for control of a region between invaders and defenders, with the delegacy flipping back and forth and neither side being able to kick the opposition out until they've held the delegacy for two consecutive updates.

Ballotonia

Whhhatt? Detags or clean-ups would take forever...

[Daynor]

More simple: no access to regional controls if the delegate is in power less than 2 updates. Or 18 hours, whichever is easiest to code. This I like. It means that if one wants to do something to a region, one needs to stick around more than just a few seconds.

NB: this also affects liberations... it means that a prolonged battle could break out for control of a region between invaders and defenders, with the delegacy flipping back and forth and neither side being able to kick the opposition out until they've held the delegacy for two consecutive updates.

Ballotonia

Whhhatt? Detags or clean-ups would take forever...

But defenders would have two updates to stop the raiders before detagging was needed... It would become a who-can-pile-the-most-WAs-in-two-days fight.

[Halcones]

Which raiders would clearly fail at. Bad idea - it will just get people fed up, they will leave the game, making the game yet more inactive. This will reduce traffic flows therefore lowering advertising profits. It's not needed either.... I doubt TBH's raiding tactics will continue more than another month. We're already starting to struggle because most regions are already tagged up by us! Finding targets that we have not touched yet is starting to take time.

[Wopruthien]

You mentioned earlier in the thread you were just going to keep on going back over previous targets and that you'd never stop as it was all about the timing.

[Improving Wordiness]

Maybe he is switching to defender again and going to detag his own tags.

[Halcones]

Ha, that wouldn't be fun at all.

Yes we could go back over them and do retags, yet that's only if we can't get enough troops to do proper raids. I reckon in a couple of months we'll be well practised on timing, and won't need to keep doing this. Plus, then I may have more time to recruit.

[Face Dancers]

If you say it required you to be in the region for two updates before you could do it unless you had a high/higher number of endorsements. So potentially it would only take 12 hours (if you moved in a couple seconds before it updated). That would have very little affect on natives as they would likely be long term residents.

More simple: no access to regional controls if the delegate is in power less than 2 updates. Or 18 hours, whichever is easiest to code. This I like. It means that if one wants to do something to a region, one needs to stick around more than just a few seconds.

NB: this also affects liberations... it means that a prolonged battle could break out for control of a region between invaders and defenders, with the delegacy flipping back and forth and neither side being able to kick the opposition out until they've held the delegacy for two consecutive updates.

Judging by the defenders' huge numerical advantage holding a liberation will be much easier than holding a raid, so I'm going to have to say no.

[Ballotonia]

Judging by the defenders' huge numerical advantage holding a liberation will be much easier than holding a raid, so I'm going to have to say no.

The demand here seems to be that even two invaders should be able to 'balance' with an army of 25+ defenders. I think that's bullocks.

Right now the imbalance we're talking about and which led to this thread is that those two invaders actually WIN. That's not because defenders don't try or aren't good enough, but because the game mechanics are such that those two invaders can simply jump in two seconds before update, spam up the place, and leave, with defenders having not even the opportunity to fight against their supposed enemy.

It used to be that invaders weren't just two guys demanding a way for them to beat any size defender army opposing them. Invaders worked together ("raider unity", ever heard of that one?). They also had connections with various regions which would support them (such as The Pacific and Gatesvile) when it suited their own needs. Especially Gatesville was really good at jumping into those long battles. The consequence was that invading was way more than just spamming up the place, it meant invading (and defending) constituted a political stance taken by a region in relation to other regions. There was this whole interregional game of politics going on at the same time. I remember dreading Gatesville being ordered into battle and messing things up for us. Hence, good relations were important, and a declaration of war (gameplay style, not RP) actually meant something. It had consequences for the daily battles between invaders and defenders: who actively showed up to support who. Invaders in turn would also show up to support for instance The Pacific in their efforts, leading to (just one example) The North Pacific being taken over by The Pacific with invader support. Grand battles took place. The rules (enforced by the mods) guaranteed that the battles wouldn't be over quickly, and the longer they took the more meaning the battles had. There was this whole spy-vs-spy game built on top as well (did you know that once the #2 player in the ADN turned out to be an invader spy?), just adding to layers of complexity. Defenders still have (some of) those connections. Are you telling me invaders do not?

I think it's actually a GOOD thing for the game if invaders were encouraged to engage in regional politics again to achieve their agenda. It would sure as hell beat the current mechanical movement style of Gameplay.

Ballotonia

[Dysian]

I can't believe the generic idea of this thread is still actually being discussed... no not discussed, considered at all

[Halcones]

That's not because defenders don't try or aren't good enough, but because the game mechanics are such that those two invaders can simply jump in two seconds before update, spam up the place, and leave, with defenders having not even the opportunity to fight against their supposed enemy.

Not quite, actually. The game mechanics make that very difficult, particularly at late updates. We all know about update variance. To be able to get a region within 1 or 2 seconds, despite update variance, requires tremendous skill. That's why TBH doesn't always achieve it - I'd say only on 20% of our raids do we have such accurate timing. There still seems to be an impression here that all our raids are with such a timing. Not at all. I feel that raiders already have tremendous challenges to be able to succeed. Defenders should be content with what they have, and get on with their game.

If you want this game to get more active, let raiding flourish. Don't keep putting hurdles in front of it. The good gameplay will come back in time, when raiding activity has increased again.

[Face Dancers]

The demand here seems to be that even two invaders should be able to 'balance' with an army of 25+ defenders. I think that's bullocks. Right now the imbalance we're talking about and which led to this thread is that those two invaders actually WIN. That's not because defenders don't try or aren't good enough, but because the game mechanics are such that those two invaders can simply jump in two seconds before update, spam up the place, and leave, with defenders having not even the opportunity to fight against their supposed enemy.

What's wrong with the two raiders winning? They won because of superior skill. Such precision isn't easy (see what Halc posted), and if they succeed in such an endeavour I believe they very well deserve it (raider or defender). For as long as I've been around, BEFORE variance, if raiders/defenders were accurate and numerous enough they could have taken a region two seconds before update. Why are people complaining now? And if the raiders want to leave the region after they raided it, so be it. They can stay and fight, or they can leave. It's up to us, you know.

By the way, you didn't counter my point that liberations will easily become permanent because raiders don't have the numbers to take back a liberated region from the defenders during update. Which is why I'm against that particular suggestion.

It used to be that invaders weren't just two guys demanding a way for them to beat any size defender army opposing them. Invaders worked together ("raider unity", ever heard of that one?). They also had connections with various regions which would support them (such as The Pacific and Gatesvile) when it suited their own needs. Especially Gatesville was really good at jumping into those long battles. The consequence was that invading was way more than just spamming up the place, it meant invading (and defending) constituted a political stance taken by a region in relation to other regions. There was this whole interregional game of politics going on at the same time. I remember dreading Gatesville being ordered into battle and messing things up for us. Hence, good relations were important, and a declaration of war (gameplay style, not RP) actually meant something. It had consequences for the daily battles between invaders and defenders: who actively showed up to support who. Invaders in turn would also show up to support for instance The Pacific in their efforts, leading to (just one example) The North Pacific being taken over by The Pacific with invader support. Grand battles took place. The rules (enforced by the mods) guaranteed that the battles wouldn't be over quickly, and the longer they took the more meaning the battles had. There was this whole spy-vs-spy game built on top as well (did you know that once the #2 player in the ADN turned out to be an invader spy?), just adding to layers of complexity. Defenders still have (some of) those connections. Are you telling me invaders do not?

I think it's actually a GOOD thing for the game if invaders were encouraged to engage in regional politics again to achieve their agenda. It would sure as hell beat the current mechanical movement style of Gameplay.

Ballotonia

Raiders still work together actually. See Middle Earth and Republicans? TBH has lent its support there. TBH isn't all about lightning raids. Unfortunately, a lack of numbers on the raider side means that we have simply too few people on during update, and too few people who can consistently come on for EVERY update to hold a region. We also can't have these grand battles any more. Spies have lost most of their value. The game has evolved. These things are of the past.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

The demand here seems to be that even two invaders should be able to 'balance' with an army of 25+ defenders. I think that's bullocks. Right now the imbalance we're talking about and which led to this thread is that those two invaders actually WIN. That's not because defenders don't try or aren't good enough, but because the game mechanics are such that those two invaders can simply jump in two seconds before update, spam up the place, and leave, with defenders having not even the opportunity to fight against their supposed enemy.

What's wrong with the two raiders winning? They won because of superior skill. Such precision isn't easy (see what Halc posted), and if they succeed in such an endeavour I believe they very well deserve it (raider or defender). For as long as I've been around, BEFORE variance, if raiders/defenders were accurate and numerous enough they could have taken a region two seconds before update. Why are people complaining now? And if the raiders want to leave the region after they raided it, so be it. They can stay and fight, or they can leave. It's up to us, you know.

By the way, you didn't counter my point that liberations will easily become permanent because raiders don't have the numbers to take back a liberated region from the defenders during update. Which is why I'm against that particular suggestion.

It used to be that invaders weren't just two guys demanding a way for them to beat any size defender army opposing them. Invaders worked together ("raider unity", ever heard of that one?). They also had connections with various regions which would support them (such as The Pacific and Gatesvile) when it suited their own needs. Especially Gatesville was really good at jumping into those long battles. The consequence was that invading was way more than just spamming up the place, it meant invading (and defending) constituted a political stance taken by a region in relation to other regions. There was this whole interregional game of politics going on at the same time. I remember dreading Gatesville being ordered into battle and messing things up for us. Hence, good relations were important, and a declaration of war (gameplay style, not RP) actually meant something. It had consequences for the daily battles between invaders and defenders: who actively showed up to support who. Invaders in turn would also show up to support for instance The Pacific in their efforts, leading to (just one example) The North Pacific being taken over by The Pacific with invader support. Grand battles took place. The rules (enforced by the mods) guaranteed that the battles wouldn't be over quickly, and the longer they took the more meaning the battles had. There was this whole spy-vs-spy game built on top as well (did you know that once the #2 player in the ADN turned out to be an invader spy?), just adding to layers of complexity. Defenders still have (some of) those connections. Are you telling me invaders do not?

I think it's actually a GOOD thing for the game if invaders were encouraged to engage in regional politics again to achieve their agenda. It would sure as hell beat the current mechanical movement style of Gameplay.

Ballotonia

Raiders still work together actually. See Middle Earth and Republicans? TBH has lent its support there. TBH isn't all about lightning raids. Unfortunately, a lack of numbers on the raider side means that we have simply too few people on during update, and too few people who can consistently come on for EVERY update to hold a region. We also can't have these grand battles any more. Spies have lost most of their value. The game has evolved. These things are of the past.

Devolved is more accurate. And we need to bring some of these things from the past back somehow. The problem isn't that two invaders are winning. The problem is that there is very little open warfare anymore.

Anyway this whole conversation is ridiculous now. With annex coming down the pipe soon the whole landscape could potentially be vastly different a few months from now. Any changes being proposed here are dealing with a tactic that very soon might become obsolete anyway.

[Ballotonia]

What's wrong with the two raiders winning? They won because of superior skill. Such precision isn't easy (see what Halc posted), and if they succeed in such an endeavour I believe they very well deserve it (raider or defender).

It requires some skill, yes. It however has nothing to do with SUPERIOR skill, since there's no match between the skill of one side versus the other. Perhaps you mean his skill is superior compared to that of other invaders who fail to duplicate the effort? Right now it's one side playing with the game server. The other side merely watches and observes in the knowledge there's nothing in the game that can be done to counter what's happening. I understand your side has no problem with that. We've been trying to explain it's however very bad for the game overall.

For as long as I've been around, BEFORE variance, if raiders/defenders were accurate and numerous enough they could have taken a region two seconds before update.

What do you mean, "BEFORE variance" ?!? There's always been variance in the update times. In fact, variance was a heck of a lot bigger when the forum was still running on the same server. And in the old pre-Jolt days, when the server seemed to be powered by hamsters running around in a wheel, variance meant the update would typically last anywhere between 2 and 3.5 hours. And occasionally even longer. That used to be the variance we dealt with. With far fewer users and the forum on its own server, the regular-like-clockwork stuff you see now is totally peanuts. (just dawned on me... did you mean 'randomization' instead? Would make more sense if you had meant to write that.)

Why are people complaining now? And if the raiders want to leave the region after they raided it, so be it. They can stay and fight, or they can leave. It's up to us, you know.

The complaint comes forth now since after 8 years invaders have finally figured out they indeed have a guaranteed way to always win. Despite invaders always having complained, for 8 years straight, how the game was supposedly stacked against them they always had that guaranteed way to win. They apparently only recently figured that out. And so, the bulk of what invaders are doing now is executing that sure-fire way to win over and over again. Game over. And with the game over, the question is what now? Sure, we could keep sitting here watching invaders win again and again forever, but what's the point in doing that? You guys figured out how to do the trick, kudos to you. As predicted, you've won. Finally. Are we gonna do anything else now, or is this the way it'll be forever from now on?

Ballotonia

[Ballotonia]

Anyway this whole conversation is ridiculous now. With annex coming down the pipe soon the whole landscape could potentially be vastly different a few months from now. Any changes being proposed here are dealing with a tactic that very soon might become obsolete anyway.

Please explain to me how the gift of Annex to invaders in any way shape or form alter the fact that:
1. invaders still have a 100% guaranteed way of winning an invasion.
2. invaders know how to execute 1.

At most it's a shiny new toy to provide a temporary distraction. So perhaps for a little bit of time invaders won't execute their guaranteed win-move and actually have to fight against an actual enemy instead of playing a one-on-one against the game server. But let's get real.. If and when defenders have the audacity to win a few too many battles, it's back to the guaranteed win-move. Cause, you know, it's still there and it still works.

Ballotonia

[Halcones]

The complaint comes forth now since after 8 years invaders have finally figured out they indeed have a guaranteed way to always win. Despite invaders always having complained, for 8 years straight, how the game was supposedly stacked against them they always had that guaranteed way to win. They apparently only recently figured that out.

Actually this is no new tactic that raiders have recently discovered. It has been used long ago, as already mentioned before in this topic. The Jolly Roger were very good at switching during the update, and clearing the WA boards. The tactic has been known all along.

[Ballotonia]

The complaint comes forth now since after 8 years invaders have finally figured out they indeed have a guaranteed way to always win. Despite invaders always having complained, for 8 years straight, how the game was supposedly stacked against them they always had that guaranteed way to win. They apparently only recently figured that out.

Actually this is no new tactic that raiders have recently discovered. It has been used long ago, as already mentioned before in this topic. The Jolly Roger were very good at switching during the update, and clearing the WA boards. The tactic has been known all along.

Being able to switch WA isn't what provides a 100% guaranteed way of winning, so that's not what I was talking about at all. Defenders can do that too, and have done so. What makes it a guaranteed win is for invaders to jump into their target 2 seconds before the target updates. At that moment there is no battle, the invaders simply get the delegacy. That's how the game server works. At least in a liberation there's a (supposed) active invader delegate waiting for the same update time knowing there's an incoming army. When the target is a sleepy native, there's no competition at all.

EDIT: and as far as "clearing the WA boards" is concerned... I'm still surprised that doesn't seem to qualify as spam. Clearing regional happenings is considered spam, but WA happenings clearing is ok?!?

Sorry if I'm a tad long-winded, but since I'm getting the impression you're not understanding this argument at all I'm trying to be as clear as possible about it.

Ballotonia

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Anyway this whole conversation is ridiculous now. With annex coming down the pipe soon the whole landscape could potentially be vastly different a few months from now. Any changes being proposed here are dealing with a tactic that very soon might become obsolete anyway.

Please explain to me how the gift of Annex to invaders in any way shape or form alter the fact that:
1. invaders still have a 100% guaranteed way of winning an invasion.
2. invaders know how to execute 1.

At most it's a shiny new toy to provide a temporary distraction. So perhaps for a little bit of time invaders won't execute their guaranteed win-move and actually have to fight against an actual enemy instead of playing a one-on-one against the game server. But let's get real.. If and when defenders have the audacity to win a few too many battles, it's back to the guaranteed win-move. Cause, you know, it's still there and it still works.

Ballotonia

Well, that's the ebb and flow of things, isn't it? It will probably never fully go away. I'm just hoping actual fights over territory will become the norm, and these invasions will be run on the side, either as training or by one or two orgs. And again the problem isn't so much that we have a guaranteed way of winning so much as no one bothers to stick around for the party.

[The Graveyards]

so the raiders win with only two? and its my understanding its more then two now but that is how it started yeah. its good skills to be able to , the use of switchers is necessary with the way the game has evolved because otherwise the defenders always do arrive with loads. it would be unfair to the raiding nations to create a lag on update. I wondered how fast TBH would be able to get nearly all regions lol it was a lot at once. there are still plenty out there though. if the defenders had not started to force the end of the way raiding used to be, with liberations, regions on dossier, etc then the raiders would not have had to evolve. but as it is, we have and may be the defenders should do the same rather then try and change the game