"What are your pronouns?"

[Cannot think of a name]

EVERYONE was using the singular they/them to describe a person of indeterminate gender long before the concept of non-binary entered the mainstream.

You're walking down the street and you see a backpack on the ground. What do you say? "Someone dropped their backpack. I'd like to return it to them but I don't have time to look for them, but hopefully they come back for it."

Fucking no one ever said "somebody dropped his or her backpack."

So reactionaries have no excuse. You were using it to begin with so if you refuse to use it now you're just being a dick.

Hilarious but alas, a complete strawman.

See how your post ends at where you said 'strawman'? That's not how that is meant to work. It's not a flag you throw on a play and you get the point. It is meant as a guide to arguments that are inherently flawed. By knowing these common mistakes it's easy to dispute arguments using them. It however is not as easy as saying "strawman", you have to actually demonstrate the flaw in the argument, not give it a name and think you nailed it.

[USS Monitor]

I don't think I've ever actually had to ask someone their pronouns if I met them face to face. How often does this actually come up if you're not making a weird performative ritual out of it?

If someone says they're a he or a she or a they, I'll take their word for it. I don't need their complete medical history.

I think the article in the OP makes some good points. We need room in our society for people to express their gender, even if it sometimes produces quirky results -- but we do not need the level of hyperwoke, nitpicky, walk-on-eggshells culture that exists in some circles.

[Hamidiye]

Hm, do I disssect the article and get a shiny new banhammer to the face? Nah.

Pronouns then. Xe, Xir, Xi Jinping, whatever. Fine, I'll use them if you tell them to me.

this piece is interesting

See, now, this is where we ruin into trouble already.

flawed and reflects larger problems in our discourse around pronouns specifically and queer politics generally,

The marxists, as much as I dislike them, have this nice idea of main and secondary contradiction. Class struggle and exploitation first, the rest second. They might have a point, maybe discuss less the politics of language and gender and try to fix poverty first? Wrong pronouns and queer politics while the USA imprisons more people per capita than even North Korea and while 4/5 of those are black. Just sayin'... I'm not calling the gender issue negligible, but being shot because you're a ni****r is kinda worse.

capitalism bad

Yes, and orange man bad too. Can we get on with it now?

Do you agree with Colyar that they/them pronouns might be becoming more trouble than they're worth, for us as a society or for yourself individually?

Seeing as I have yet to meet anyone who uses those...propably not. Myself I'd rather clear up a few other things, whenever I have a beer some clown tells me that alcohol is haram for instance - like I give a ***. And apparently I am not a real german, because my name is Mehmet and my beard is black, that I was born in Bochum-Wattenscheid doesn't doesn't matter.

See, personal experience does not an argument make! Imagine that.

[Floofybit]

I always refer to someone by their name or "you" and if I need to use pronouns I'm not talking to them so I don't understand why it matters. I mean, I respect the people, I just don't first ask someone, "hey, what are your pronouns?"

(Btw mine are he/he/he/ha)

[USS Monitor]

The marxists, as much as I dislike them, have this nice idea of main and secondary contradiction. Class struggle and exploitation first, the rest second. They might have a point, maybe discuss less the politics of language and gender and try to fix poverty first? Wrong pronouns and queer politics while the USA imprisons more people per capita than even North Korea and while 4/5 of those are black. Just sayin'... I'm not calling the gender issue negligible, but being shot because you're a ni****r is kinda worse.

OH MY GOD!!!! YOU SAID BLACK INSTEAD OF BIPOC!!!! WHAT KIND OF INSENSITIVE CAD ARE YOU???? /s

[Senkaku]

I don't think I've ever actually had to ask someone their pronouns if I met them face to face. How often does this actually come up if you're not making a weird performative ritual out of it?

If someone says they're a he or a she or a they, I'll take their word for it. I don't need their complete medical history.

I think the article in the OP makes some good points. We need room in our society for people to express their gender, even if it sometimes produces quirky results -- but we do not need the level of hyperwoke, nitpicky, walk-on-eggshells culture that exists in some circles.

Yeah, it’s definitely keyed into real and irritating phenomena that should be avoided/addressed— I just think it doesn’t really assess the actual causes of said nitpicky walk-on-eggshells culture well, and I also think it implicitly overstates how much of a problem that sort of culture is vs. the still very prevalent casual transphobia that defines a lot of mainstream society.

[Drongonia]

It's quite interesting, I work in a role where I'm regularly interacting with many many people from a diverse roster of ethnicities, incomes etc but I have never met a trans person in real life and thus never had to refer to them by their preferred pronouns.

And before anyone tells me "you probably have but they passed so well", with my field of work that's extremely unlikely as I have people's information on file.

[Hamidiye]

The marxists, as much as I dislike them, have this nice idea of main and secondary contradiction. Class struggle and exploitation first, the rest second. They might have a point, maybe discuss less the politics of language and gender and try to fix poverty first? Wrong pronouns and queer politics while the USA imprisons more people per capita than even North Korea and while 4/5 of those are black. Just sayin'... I'm not calling the gender issue negligible, but being shot because you're a ni****r is kinda worse.

OH MY GOD!!!! YOU SAID BLACK INSTEAD OF BIPOC!!!! WHAT KIND OF INSENSITIVE CAD ARE YOU???? /s

I'm lightly brown myself, I'm allowed.

[Big Jim P]

I only have one pronoun: Lord.

[Senkaku]

flawed and reflects larger problems in our discourse around pronouns specifically and queer politics generally,

The marxists, as much as I dislike them, have this nice idea of main and secondary contradiction. Class struggle and exploitation first, the rest second. They might have a point, maybe discuss less the politics of language and gender and try to fix poverty first? Wrong pronouns and queer politics while the USA imprisons more people per capita than even North Korea and while 4/5 of those are black. Just sayin'... I'm not calling the gender issue negligible, but being shot because you're a ni****r is kinda worse.

This has always been a dumb point for all the many decades that people have been making it, political issues don’t wait to be neatly addressed in order. These issues intersect; in my experience this dismissive attitude is just trotted out by otherwise-progressive homophobes & transphobes to justify avoiding discussion of issues that make them uncomfortable. No one’s actually saying an individual’s pronoun preferences are more important than stopping police violence, it’s just that in this thread we’re discussing the former rather than the latter. It’s not like that somehow precludes discussion or work on other issues.

[Hamidiye]

The marxists, as much as I dislike them, have this nice idea of main and secondary contradiction. Class struggle and exploitation first, the rest second. They might have a point, maybe discuss less the politics of language and gender and try to fix poverty first? Wrong pronouns and queer politics while the USA imprisons more people per capita than even North Korea and while 4/5 of those are black. Just sayin'... I'm not calling the gender issue negligible, but being shot because you're a ni****r is kinda worse.

This has always been a dumb point for all the many decades that people have been making it, political issues don’t wait to be neatly addressed in order. These issues intersect; in my experience this dismissive attitude is just trotted out by otherwise-progressive homophobes & transphobes to justify avoiding discussion of issues that make them uncomfortable. No one’s actually saying an individual’s pronoun preferences are more important than stopping police violence, it’s just that in this thread we’re discussing the former rather than the latter. It’s not like that somehow precludes discussion or work on other issues.

*sigh*

There it is, the argument I was hoping to avoid this time. Yes, we can tacke multiple issues at the same time. Starving people are more imprtant than pronouns though, there's no way around that one. I am not ptoposing to ignore the issues LGBTWTFBBQ-people face in daily communication here! I am just saying that maybe it might be a good idea to focus the outrage both online and in the real world on the dying people instead of the misgendered ones. Hell, homophobes are assh***s, I aggree! But the dude who refuses pronouns and identifies as an attack-helicopter on twitter with his pepe-avatar isn't such a big deal after all. This discussion directly links into this: we are discussing pronouns instead of stopping global warming here after all.

As for the pronouns themselves: I am sure this thing will crosss the pond and arrive in good old europistan in a few months anyway. And all the rightoids will be very butthurt and go ahead and repost spicy american memes for me to enjoy, just as it weas before on many similar issues. If I ever meet anyone that I cannot categorize as man or woman I honestly promise to ask about preferred pronouns. Happy now? Fine.

You see, the little north-german town I live in is very accepting of LGBT culture, to the point of hardly having any actual special places since every bar accepts anyone anyway. I just was about to call myself a north-german myself, but then my name is Mehmet and I have a nice thick black beard, so the krauts aren't gonna let me forget I'm a Türke anyway (no matter that even my mother was born in Bochum, right in the heart of the fatherland), so I have my own identity issues right here, haha.

As for the author of the article: fine. Gay bro/sis with identity issues. We ned a gender-neutral alternative for bro as well, while we're at this shit - might I propose the turkish "kanka" for that? Yes, being gay is a raw deal, especially in traditionalist (or retarded as in the amurrican case) societies. Fine, oglum, they it is. How's the way to adress you anyway, what's the they-them for "you"? "You group of people over there"?

[Senkaku]

LGBTWTFBBQ

Lol k

[USS Monitor]

This has always been a dumb point for all the many decades that people have been making it, political issues don’t wait to be neatly addressed in order. These issues intersect; in my experience this dismissive attitude is just trotted out by otherwise-progressive homophobes & transphobes to justify avoiding discussion of issues that make them uncomfortable. No one’s actually saying an individual’s pronoun preferences are more important than stopping police violence, it’s just that in this thread we’re discussing the former rather than the latter. It’s not like that somehow precludes discussion or work on other issues.

*sigh*

There it is, the argument I was hoping to avoid this time. Yes, we can tacke multiple issues at the same time. Starving people are more imprtant than pronouns though, there's no way around that one. I am not ptoposing to ignore the issues LGBTWTFBBQ-people face in daily communication here! I am just saying that maybe it might be a good idea to focus the outrage both online and in the real world on the dying people instead of the misgendered ones. Hell, homophobes are assh***s, I aggree! But the dude who refuses pronouns and identifies as an attack-helicopter on twitter with his pepe-avatar isn't such a big deal after all. This discussion directly links into this: we are discussing pronouns instead of stopping global warming here after all.

Yes, we -- everyone in this thread, including you -- are discussing pronouns.

If you would prefer to discuss global warming, racial bias, or global poverty, you can make a thread about any of those topics.

[Munchkinstan]

I’ve no problem calling people by their chosen pronouns. The only time I do roll my eyes and leave is when neopronouns come into the equation and some tricolored haired person gets all hot an bothered and wishes to be referred to as cloudself. But since we’re not discussing those, and that’s rather niche atm, well, yeah.

If you want me to call you by he/him, she/her, or they/them (heck, even it, which makes me iffy because people aren’t things but I digress), I have no problem doing so. Just don’t get upset if I accidentally don’t use the pronouns you like if you don’t tell me first. Really, in all fairness, I’d rather call you by your name if at all possible.

[Big Jim P]

Here's my issue with chosen pronouns: If I am using them, I am not talking to you, I am talking about you to another. That means your choice is irrelevant. If I am talking to YOU, I will use your name or title.

[Necroghastia]

Here's my issue with chosen pronouns: If I am using them, I am not talking to you, I am talking about you to another. That means your choice is irrelevant. If I am talking to YOU, I will use your name or title.

Because of course simple common courtesy doesn't count for anything, and there is no possible situation where the person you are talking about could be a party to the conversation where you have to refer to them with third person pronouns.

[West Barack and East Obama]

Remembering and using someone's pronouns is not that hard. That minimal effort you put into remembering someone's pronouns can make their day (or break it if you forego it).

That said, if anybody came up to me and asked 'What are your pronouns??', I'd cringe. What I do is just use 'they' until I am aware of their preferred pronouns.

[Big Jim P]

Here's my issue with chosen pronouns: If I am using them, I am not talking to you, I am talking about you to another. That means your choice is irrelevant. If I am talking to YOU, I will use your name or title.

Because of course simple common courtesy doesn't count for anything, and there is no possible situation where the person you are talking about could be a party to the conversation where you have to refer to them with third person pronouns.

Not likely for me. I VERY rarely am in that situation. Last time might have been 20 years ago.

Still, someone else doesn't get to define how I speak or what I say.

[Torisakia]

Remove pronouns. Refer to each other by prisoner number, since we all live in a global penitentiary.

[Necroghastia]

Because of course simple common courtesy doesn't count for anything, and there is no possible situation where the person you are talking about could be a party to the conversation where you have to refer to them with third person pronouns.

Not likely for me. I VERY rarely am in that situation. Last time might have been 20 years ago.

Still, someone else doesn't get to define how I speak or what I say.

You haven't been in a group of three or more people in 20 years?

[Caitlinia]

Honestly I don't see why people can't respect pronouns. It's just a matter of politeness that we should all extend to the people who'll appreciate it.

For us it's just using a single word or set of words, for a trans person it's a matter of validation and respect. It can mean the world to someone going through a rough time.

[Hamidiye]

LGBTWTFBBQ

Lol k

Hey, the actual one keeps changing (ore are there just factions that each have their own spelling for that?), and this keeps me from being bitched at for forgetting a letter or a plus or whatever.

[Hukhalia]

Honestly I don't see why people can't respect pronouns. It's just a matter of politeness that we should all extend to the people who'll appreciate it.

For us it's just using a single word or set of words, for a trans person it's a matter of validation and respect. It can mean the world to someone going through a rough time.

Politics has never been about politeness; when people want you wiped off the face of the Earth - and a lot of these people do want to erase LGBT people, explicitly or implicitly - then they are hardly likely going to be polite about it.

[Hamidiye]

Honestly I don't see why people can't respect pronouns. It's just a matter of politeness that we should all extend to the people who'll appreciate it.

For us it's just using a single word or set of words, for a trans person it's a matter of validation and respect. It can mean the world to someone going through a rough time.

Politics has never been about politeness; when people want you wiped off the face of the Earth - and a lot of these people do want to erase LGBT people, explicitly or implicitly - then they are hardly likely going to be polite about it.

That you speak of people wanting to wipe someone out while having the chinese Red Guards displayed as your flag is just...

[Ifreann]

Because of course simple common courtesy doesn't count for anything, and there is no possible situation where the person you are talking about could be a party to the conversation where you have to refer to them with third person pronouns.

Not likely for me. I VERY rarely am in that situation. Last time might have been 20 years ago.

Still, someone else doesn't get to define how I speak or what I say.

But you just said in that post that they do. "If I am talking to YOU, I will use your name or title." How do you imagine coming by the knowledge of a stranger's name or title in conversation, except by that stranger telling you?