What is Economics?

[Forsher]

This might seem like a pretty random subject to bring up but it's based off this so from my perspective it's kind of a current affair thing. Actually, it's more like a really nasty rabbit hole that has led to 28 more open tabs. The good news is that all you need to do is read this one... at just the 472 pages. Just kidding. All you need to read is a single question: what kind of subject is economics?

In schools and universities, you'll notice that subjects tend to be clustered together into faculties (or, possibly, departments).. and in some countries, degrees. So, for example, you might have a science faculty that teaches biology, physics and chemistry, or a humanities faculty with English, Classical Studies and History, or a Social Studies faculty that has Classical Studies, Media Studies, History, Geography and Social Studies departments. When I ask "what kind of subject is economics" I'm sort of asking which faculty should it be in?

This isn't a straightforward question... obviously you might not know what economics is (certainly, neither the Ministry and the hacks it employs nor most of those submitters in that 472 page PDF appear to have a solid grasp on what subjects are about, not just economics... pick a submission and odds are it's whack) but that's not really what I mean: I'm more talking about how it's hard to define what makes "science" science, for example, and difficult to set parameters around what's economics and what's something someone's calling economics (cf pseudoscience). However, the three basic answers are:

• economics is a science (albeit, a dismal one)
• economics is a social science (what makes something a social science rather than a science, then?)
• economics is a business/commerce discipline (a what?)

However, only the middle one is actually correct.

Whether you see economics as being more "the study of decision making" (cf decision theory and ecology) or "the application of scarcity to human behaviour" (cf human geography as "the application of space to human behaviour", or psychology as "the application of the brain to human behaviour"), the basic thing it is about doesn't change: humans in the human world. Sciences aren't united by methodology (please, tell me more about how palaeontology is able to use the "scientific method"), which means their uniting concern must be subject (i.e. the natural world), which makes sense with the existence of "social sciences". But that then introduces a contrast with "humanities", unless you see humanities as being united by a concern for "the construction of their world by humans"... they're not behavioural, in other words (imagine, if you will, trying to use English as a subject to explain human behaviour). Business/commerce disciplines aren't actually disciplines at all... they're no more academic than plumbing or carpentry: the focus is entirely on how to do things, not explanations of how things work/are.

But that's just me, what say ye, NSG?

[Nilokeras]

in the Applied Ideology faculty alongside International Relations, Political Science and Management/Business

[Cetacea]

This might seem like a pretty random subject to bring up but it's based off this so from my perspective it's kind of a current affair thing. Actually, it's more like a really nasty rabbit hole that has led to 28 more open tabs. The good news is that all you need to do is read this one... at just the 472 pages. Just kidding. All you need to read is a single question: what kind of subject is economics?

In schools and universities, you'll notice that subjects tend to be clustered together into faculties (or, possibly, departments).. and in some countries, degrees. So, for example, you might have a science faculty that teaches biology, physics and chemistry, or a humanities faculty with English, Classical Studies and History, or a Social Studies faculty that has Classical Studies, Media Studies, History, Geography and Social Studies departments. When I ask "what kind of subject is economics" I'm sort of asking which faculty should it be in?

This isn't a straightforward question... obviously you might not know what economics is (certainly, neither the Ministry and the hacks it employs nor most of those submitters in that 472 page PDF appear to have a solid grasp on what subjects are about, not just economics... pick a submission and odds are it's whack) but that's not really what I mean: I'm more talking about how it's hard to define what makes "science" science, for example, and difficult to set parameters around what's economics and what's something someone's calling economics (cf pseudoscience). However, the three basic answers are:

• economics is a science (albeit, a dismal one)
• economics is a social science (what makes something a social science rather than a science, then?)
• economics is a business/commerce discipline (a what?)

However, only the middle one is actually correct.

Whether you see economics as being more "the study of decision making" (cf decision theory and ecology) or "the application of scarcity to human behaviour" (cf human geography as "the application of space to human behaviour", or psychology as "the application of the brain to human behaviour"), the basic thing it is about doesn't change: humans in the human world. Sciences aren't united by methodology (please, tell me more about how palaeontology is able to use the "scientific method"), which means their uniting concern must be subject (i.e. the natural world), which makes sense with the existence of "social sciences". But that then introduces a contrast with "humanities", unless you see humanities as being united by a concern for "the construction of their world by humans"... they're not behavioural, in other words (imagine, if you will, trying to use English as a subject to explain human behaviour). Business/commerce disciplines aren't actually disciplines at all... they're no more academic than plumbing or carpentry: the focus is entirely on how to do things, not explanations of how things work/are.

But that's just me, what say ye, NSG?

As someone who loved my School C Accounting class I am really suprised and disappointed by the stupidity of removing NCEA 1 Accounting!!!! We need young people to have improved Financial Literacy and knowing the basics of Bank Account reconciliation, tax and the different between Assets, Income, Expenses and Liabilities is fundamental. Moreover I got interested in Economic Anthropology and History of Trade due to Economics.

Anyway I consider Economics to be a Social Science its a tool using models and theories to rationalise, describe and predict complex Human activity. Its not a true Science because humans are fundamentally irrational and thus it becomes impossible for economics to produce rational empirical measurements of real world phenomena.

I’d be interested to know why the decision to drop Accounting was made, are they moving to substitute it with a broader ‘Financial Literacy’ option or is accounting suffering diminishing value in an overcrowded learning market?

[The Imperium man]

The definition of economics is analysing production , distribution and consumption of goods and services , yet it's mostly social science rather than hard science. This definition seems simplistic and I'm not a economic expertise. Anyway , just ask some economists and experts.

[Nilokeras]

Anyway , just ask some economists and experts.

well that's the last thing you want to do, then you'll just get a bunch of economists telling you how the poverty simulator game they ran with a bunch of undergrads who were paid for their labour in pizza is really science

[Cavirfi]

Economics is highly detailed; everything you touch, smell, hear, see, taste, or feel, they all have economic significance; even people who are considered "not contributing to society" still contributes to the economy in one way or another. Economics is Microeconomics; every single purchase is significant; 1 liter short of water may affect a financial company, 10 kilograms of grain short can cause gun purchases to rise. Everything and everyone will cause something completely unrelated, this is our economic system, our both perfectly-efficient and completely flawed economic system.

[The Black Forrest]

Edgy NSG talk.

[Forsher]

in the Applied Ideology faculty alongside International Relations, Political Science and Management/Business

And what ideology is economics applying?

[Cavirfi]

in the Applied Ideology faculty alongside International Relations, Political Science and Management/Business

And what ideology is economics applying?

Any of the 3 positions of economic politics: Capitalism, Socialism, or Corporatism.

[Nilokeras]

in the Applied Ideology faculty alongside International Relations, Political Science and Management/Business

And what ideology is economics applying?

The ideology of the economist in question. You can tell which by what questions they consider worthwhile and what they consider the purpose of the discipline of economics is - the technocratic neoliberalism dominant in those Applied Ideology departments usually expresses itself in a sort of cold blooded focus on human behaviour in a market environment to the exclusion of all else. Poverty simulators and models of tax credits on spending decisions without considering the how or why.

[Vendellamoore]

And what ideology is economics applying?

Any of the 3 positions of economic politics: Capitalism, Socialism, or Corporatism.

Don't forget Distributism and Communism

[Albrenia]

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

[Cavirfi]

Any of the 3 positions of economic politics: Capitalism, Socialism, or Corporatism.

Don't forget Distributism and Communism

Communism is just part of the 2nd position since Communism is against both the 1st and 3rd positions and has socialistic characteristics. Distributism on the other hand is a branch of the 1st position, well because... ownership.

[Vendellamoore]

Don't forget Distributism and Communism

Communism is just part of the 2nd position since Communism is against both the 1st and 3rd positions and has socialistic characteristics. Distributism on the other hand is a branch of the 1st position, well because... ownership.

Well, Communism and Socialism have different goals. Plus Corporatism has aspects of Capitalism as Distributism does. Both Distributism and Corporatism have been classified as 3rd positions from my experiences.

[Cavirfi]

Communism is just part of the 2nd position since Communism is against both the 1st and 3rd positions and has socialistic characteristics. Distributism on the other hand is a branch of the 1st position, well because... ownership.

Well, Communism and Socialism have different goals. Plus Corporatism has aspects of Capitalism as Distributism does. Both Distributism and Corporatism have been classified as 3rd positions from my experiences.

Though Communism and Socialism do wish to achieve different goals; which the former wants to create a utopia based on the ladder's ideals, while the ladder simply wants fairness in the economic system, I do think they are still second positionist in their nature due to HOW they achieve their goals, NOT the goals themselves.

As for distributism? I honestly am still confused as to what that is and since you claim to have experience, I will leave it to you to decide where you think such idea stands.

[Nilokeras]

ITT: people whose only experience with communism is glancing at the wikipedia page on a phone from across the room try to explain its tenets

[Cavirfi]

ITT: people whose only experience with communism is glancing at the wikipedia page on a phone from across the room try to explain its tenets

Oh I didn't learn Communism from Wikipedia, I learned it elsewhere; feel free to ask.

[Berhakonia]

It's a social science that involves a deal of applied mathematics. No different from commerce or other business-related subjects. However, it's more of a practicality to separate commerce-based fields from that which we traditionally consider to be a social science.

[Dumb Ideologies]

That would depend on what kind of economist are you asking. There is this notion of a specific economic sphere of study which is about the theory and practice of how best to maximise certain indicies such as production and profit. At the same time, what is possible and the implications of economic policy is fundamentally interrelated with the way in which wider society is organised, with politics, and with the natural environment. It often seems as though they are asked questions outside of their range of competence.

[Drongonia]

-snip-

Dentistry!

I don't have a lot to say on the base question but I will agree that removing Level 1 Accounting is very daft. I actually quite enjoyed it during high school, and carried on with it through Level 2 as well.

[Forsher]

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

Unless you read the 472 page pdf I really don't get the relevance?

Man, those fans of Latin...

[Page]

Economics is a social science that attempts to spot trends and make predictions about how humans interact.

The problem with economics as a social science is that unlike psychology and sociology, it often fails to recognize the extent of humans' disordered thinking and behavior.

To put it bluntly, mainstream economists do not typically acknowledge how incredibly stupid our economies are. A psychologist recognizes psychosis as a detrimental problem that ought to be solved, but few economists say that when, for example, we have a recession or depression caused by immaterial factors, something other than a change in the availability of resources and production, that this constitutes a mass psychosis.

[Forsher]

It's a social science that involves a deal of applied mathematics. No different from commerce or other business-related subjects. However, it's more of a practicality to separate commerce-based fields from that which we traditionally consider to be a social science.

Yeah, they really don't (involve a deal of applied mathematics).

[Albrenia]

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

Unless you read the 472 page pdf I really don't get the relevance?

Man, those fans of Latin...

Thread title reminded me of 'What is Love?'.

[Forsher]

Unless you read the 472 page pdf I really don't get the relevance?

Man, those fans of Latin...

Thread title reminded me of 'What is Love?'.

I want to know what love economics is.