Arab boycott on France begins!

[Insaanistan]

The problem is in many ways Muslims are often basically told our choices are: leave Islam and conform to Western culture, or be separate and keep our culture and religion.

There should be no "choices". You should have to conform to the culture of the country you're living in (if that means you have to leave Islam, leave it. If you can find a compromise, do that).

You’re crazy

[Lost Memories]

This is the whole reason for the bill Macron’s government is trying to pass. I fully support it, of course, the segregation of Muslims from the rest of French society (and Muslims in other European nations) must be stopped. The people within these burgeoning parallel societies need to stop trying to separate themselves from their (if applicable: new) countrymen.

I think we have this problem here in the UK, but I admittedly haven’t investigated it to the fullest just yet.

You think? Like those pakistan pedo circles in the UK?
(though to be fair, that's a case from 2016, i'm not aware myself if there have been more cases, more recently, similar or on different issues)

On the first part, there is a little irony.
"stop being so separated from society!" said the promoters of "separation of religion and state"
(the promoters on the state level, that is, politicians, not you personally)
Where "separation of religion and state", actually means "assimilation into the state driven culture", which the muslims don't seem to want to get assimilated, not only the extremists don't want that.

That makes the original "separation of church and state" look so refined and advanced, in comparison to this almost marxist "assimilation into the state driven culture".

[Insaanistan]

This is the whole reason for the bill Macron’s government is trying to pass. I fully support it, of course, the segregation of Muslims from the rest of French society (and Muslims in other European nations) must be stopped. The people within these burgeoning parallel societies need to stop trying to separate themselves from their (if applicable: new) countrymen.

I think we have this problem here in the UK, but I admittedly haven’t investigated it to the fullest just yet.

You think? Like those pakistan pedo circles in the UK?
(though to be fair, that's a case from 2016, i'm not aware myself if there have been more cases, more recently, similar or on different issues)

On the first part, there is a little irony.
"stop being so separated from society!" said the promoters of "separation of religion and state"
(the promoters on the state level, that is, politicians, not you personally)
Where "separation of religion and state", actually means "assimilation into the state driven culture", which the muslims don't seem to want to get assimilated, not only the extremists don't want that.

That makes the original "separation of church and state" look so refined and advanced, in comparison to this almost marxist "assimilation into the state driven culture".

Integration isn’t assimilation.

[Lost Memories]

The problem is in many ways Muslims are often basically told our choices are: leave Islam and conform to Western culture, or be separate and keep our culture and religion.

The actual working solution, would be for there being compromise.

Muslims (living inside western nations) giving away with some questionable practices from their culture, and retaining all that is left.
And the state leaving alone those parts of arab culture which don't really harm society (like veils, and wear garb, it's really provocatory to make that a point of national interest)

The problem. No one of the two sides is going to compromise anything.

The French state, since the revolutions (but possibly even before), has been obsessed with having a monoculture inside its nation. With no issue if force is needed to achieve that.
The muslims, ideologically, aren't able to find compromise. For actually similar reasons to the french, they want a monoculture too. Jihad and all that.

[Insaanistan]

The problem is in many ways Muslims are often basically told our choices are: leave Islam and conform to Western culture, or be separate and keep our culture and religion.

The actual working solution, would be for there being compromise.

Muslims (living inside western nations) giving away with some questionable practices from their culture, and retaining all that is left.
And the state leaving alone those parts of arab culture which don't really harm society (like veils, and wear garb, it's really provocatory to make that a point of national interest)

The problem. No one of the two sides is going to compromise anything.

The French state, since the revolutions (but possibly even before), has been obsessed with having a monoculture inside its nation. With no issue if force is needed to achieve that.
The muslims, ideologically, aren't able to find compromise. For actually similar reasons to the french, they want a monoculture too. Jihad and all that.

First of all, jihad means struggle, not holy war, and the most important jihad in Islam is the daily jihad to be a better person.
What parts of the cultures do you perceive as negative? There are quite I few I myself find negative that exist in cultures in the Muslim world, like valuing boys more than girls.

[Lost Memories]

Integration isn’t assimilation.

Which of the two do you think happens inside France?

[Insaanistan]

Integration isn’t assimilation.

Which of the two do you think happens inside France?

Integration with calls for assimilation.

[Takomah]

Islamist countries prove time and time again that they’re sensitive snowflakes who expect to be treated like the most important thing in the world, and nothing in return

Yep, and it's quite embarrassing. Dry your eyes and put your big boy pants on lads.

[Lost Memories]

What parts of the cultures do you perceive as negative? There are quite I few I myself find negative that exist in cultures in the Muslim world, like valuing boys more than girls.

It's not a personal matter, it's a matter of popular consensus, over the perceived national and historical culture of a place, and the culture of the newcomers.
What element from the newcomers culture can come in without issues, and which one goes in conflict with other pre-existing local elements.
What is perceived as negative, in the newcomers culture, changes nation by nation. Because while the newcomers may be the same, each nation is different, with different cultures.

I'm not french, so i can't really answer on what the french specifically don't like about islamic culture, or which parts they find conflicting with their own culture.
Though, so far there have been many examples from news and french political actions, ranging from conflict with the very modern idea of sexual equality, to the last few centuries long dislike of the french for anything religious, to the more relatable dislike for barbaric and violent practices (done by extremists, but still identified with all)

So while the barbaric and violent acts may be more easy be given up, since they don't involve everyone to start with, the other requests of the french may be more hard to accept for the french muslims as a whole.

Though, i am neither a muslim, so i don't really know which parts, and how much, of the general islamic culture can be waived, while keeping the identity as a whole intact.

[Insaanistan]

What parts of the cultures do you perceive as negative? There are quite I few I myself find negative that exist in cultures in the Muslim world, like valuing boys more than girls.

It's not a personal matter, it's a matter of popular consensus, over the perceived national and historical culture of a place, and the culture of the newcomers.
What element from the newcomers culture can come in without issues, and which one goes in conflict with other pre-existing local elements.
What is perceived as negative, in the newcomers culture, changes nation by nation. Because while the newcomers may be the same, each nation is different, with different cultures.

I'm not french, so i can't really answer on what the french specifically don't like about islamic culture, or which parts they find conflicting with their own culture.
Though, so far there have been many examples from news and french political actions, ranging from conflict with the very modern idea of sexual equality, to the last few centuries long dislike of the french for anything religious, to the more relatable dislike for barbaric and violent practices (done by extremists, but still identified with all)

So while the barbaric and violent acts may be more easy be given up, since they don't involve everyone to start with, the other requests of the french may be more hard to accept for the french muslims as a whole.

Though, i am neither a muslim, so i don't really know which parts, and how much, of the general islamic culture can be waived, while keeping the identity as a whole intact.

There isn’t really an “Islamic culture”, just many, MANY things cultures across the Muslim world.

[The Alma Mater]

There should be no "choices". You should have to conform to the culture of the country you're living in (if that means you have to leave Islam, leave it. If you can find a compromise, do that).

You’re crazy

Would you accept assimilation being required for certain things ?

Say: one is only welcome in France if one promises not to behead people for mocking Muhammed ? Or if one is willing to shake hands ? Show ones face in public ? Be willing to not yell obsenities to women jogging alone in the park ? Accept gays as equals ? Accept that unsedated slaughter is illegal ?

etc.

Or no restrictions at all ?

[Insaanistan]

You’re crazy

Would you accept assimilation being required for certain things ?

Say: one is only welcome in France if one promises not to behead people for mocking Muhammed ? Or if one is willing to shake hands ? Show ones face in public ? Be willing to not yell obsenities to women jogging alone in the park ? Accept gays as equals ? Accept that unsedated slaughter is illegal ?

etc.

Or no restrictions at all ?

The things you’re suggesting are actually very Islamic.

[Eitoan]

Pro France in this case.

[The Alma Mater]

Would you accept assimilation being required for certain things ?

Say: one is only welcome in France if one promises not to behead people for mocking Muhammed ? Or if one is willing to shake hands ? Show ones face in public ? Be willing to not yell obsenities to women jogging alone in the park ? Accept gays as equals ? Accept that unsedated slaughter is illegal ?

etc.

Or no restrictions at all ?

The things you’re suggesting are actually very Islamic.

That is your opinion. Sadly, it is not an opinion shared by a significant part of the muslims currently living in France (and elsewhere in Europe for that matter).

So perhaps the solution is that YOU start to educate them instead of their imams?

[Middle Barael]

I’d tell france to hold firm, but not to escalate tensions

Essentially, any items that Turkey boycotts/sanctions should be boycotted and sanctioned back, but at the same time France should try to defuse tensions without making any major concessions

I don’t love Erdogan, and Macron is fine, but it is quite worrying all the tension between France and Turkey, with regards to Libya, Syria, Mediterranean oil flows, and now this

[Insaanistan]

The things you’re suggesting are actually very Islamic.

That is your opinion. Sadly, it is not an opinion shared by a significant part of the muslims currently living in France (and elsewhere in Europe for that matter).

So perhaps the solution is that YOU start to educate them instead of their imams?

There are a lot of Imams advocating for this. Most other imams just don’t talk about it rather than openly support, which is also bad. Few actually walk up to a jogging lady in yoga pants and go “Staghfirallah! Astaghfirallah!” Baber Siddiquis exist in real life, but like the show shows, there are few in comparison to other Muslims.
Fun fact: Muhammad (pbuh) used to race his wives.

[Chestaan]

Good, it's about time that European nations stood up to Islamic extremism.-

If we're going to go with simplistic responses like this then I'd go with "It's good that the middle East is standing up to Western imperialism"

[Albionist Great Britain]

This is the whole reason for the bill Macron’s government is trying to pass. I fully support it, of course, the segregation of Muslims from the rest of French society (and Muslims in other European nations) must be stopped. The people within these burgeoning parallel societies need to stop trying to separate themselves from their (if applicable: new) countrymen.

I think we have this problem here in the UK, but I admittedly haven’t investigated it to the fullest just yet.

You think? Like those pakistan pedo circles in the UK?
(though to be fair, that's a case from 2016, i'm not aware myself if there have been more cases, more recently, similar or on different issues)

On the first part, there is a little irony.
"stop being so separated from society!" said the promoters of "separation of religion and state"
(the promoters on the state level, that is, politicians, not you personally)
Where "separation of religion and state", actually means "assimilation into the state driven culture", which the muslims don't seem to want to get assimilated, not only the extremists don't want that.

That makes the original "separation of church and state" look so refined and advanced, in comparison to this almost marxist "assimilation into the state driven culture".

I meant self-segregated communities, not (rings of) fiends like Hussain.

Also, I don’t see how expecting one to assimilate to the state or local culture is at all bad.

[The Alma Mater]

Good, it's about time that European nations stood up to Islamic extremism.-

If we're going to go with simplistic responses like this then I'd go with "It's good that the middle East is standing up to Western imperialism"

True, protesting against capitalism and western values by refusing to buy western products is an excellent way to stand up for ones beliefs. Kudos to them for that.

[Crockerland]

Meanwhile in reality:

Surah 4, verse 24
https://quran.com/4/24

Also ˹forbidden are˺ married women—except ˹female˺ captives in your possession.1 This is Allah’s commandment to you. Lawful to you are all beyond these—as long as you seek them with your wealth in a legal marriage, not in fornication. Give those you have consummated marriage with their due dowries. It is permissible to be mutually gracious regarding the set dowry. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Surah 23, verses 1-6 (Muhsin Khan translation)
https://legacy.quran.com/23/1-6

Successful indeed are the believers. Those who offer their Salat (prayers) with all solemnity and full submissiveness. And those who turn away from Al-Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk, falsehood, and all that Allah has forbidden). And those who pay the Zakat . And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts) Except from their wives or (the captives and slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame;

Surah 33, verse 50 (Malik translation)
http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/33/50

O Prophet! We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have given their dowers; and those ladies whom your right hands possess (from the prisoners of war) whom Allah has assigned to you; and the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have migrated with you; and the believing woman who gave herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to marry her - this permission is only for you and not for the other believers; We know what restrictions We have imposed on the other believers concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess. We have granted you this privilege as an exception so that no blame may be attached to you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Surah 70, verses 29-31 (Muhammad Sarwar and Mohsin Khan translations)
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=70&verse=30

And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts) . Except with their wives and the (women slaves and captives) whom their right hands possess, for (then) they are not to be blamed, But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers.

who guard their carnal desires except from their wives and slave girls, in which case they are not to be blamed,but whoever goes beyond this is a transgressor;

The Quran not only endorses the rape of slaves, but in fact specifically raping married women who have been kidnapped as captives of war. Utterly despicable.



If the Quran condemns slavery, why did the prophet Muhammad own and trade human beings as if they were property?

https://muflihun.com/muslim/10/3901

Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported: There came a slave and pledg- ed allegiance to Allah's Apostle ﷺ on migration;
he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle ﷺ said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)

"Islam isn't a religion of slavery, anyways this is why slavery is actually a good thing"

You seem to realize not once did you actually refute any of my points. You talked about how Islam allows having intercourse with one’s slave. I never said it doesn’t. Intercourse≠rape.

There is no situation in which sex between a kidnapped woman and her captor can be consensual. You are defending war rape.

[Novus America]

Funny how they call to boycott France while sucking up to the PRC. Apparently cartoons are bad, but concentration camps are good. You can toss Muslims in camps and harvest their organs, as long as you do not have Muhammad cartoons.

The policies of so much of the Arab world are so utterly morally bankrupt. But the regimes need their circuses to keep the people in line, while robbing them blind. I have to say from stay in power perspective they are smart, albeit completely sociopathic.

[Esperica]

I am an atheist and thus obviously biased, but really I do not support the boycott and quite on the contrary I think that it is shameful.

The French president is right in his pursuit of freedom of speech and secularism. People can publish whatever they want, even if it criticises a religion - this is a form of freedom of religion. The response given by Erdogan, who has eroded civil liberties, democracy and especially secularism in Turkey, is completely inappropriate for a statesman. The majority, though not all, of Muslims have thus indirectly expressed support for the act of terror committed by the Chechen teenager - this is unacceptable. This will also cause a lot of harm to innocent liberal muslims in the west, who will now be viewed as barbaric, and let's not forget that this is fuel for right-wing nutjobs. As if we didn't have enough problems with Christians already!

Most Islamic teachings are extremely restrictive and its followers are very conservative, but to lament freedom of speech and indirectly support a terrorist is simply medieval.

I believe there is no God, people should be allowed to say whatever they want and this boycott is just another display of religious dogmatism, collectivism and ignorance.

[Novus America]

Vive la France! Though I understand the economic issues with this, I find the Arab states’ reaction to be hilarious and petty, but perfectly in-character for their ilk. May France be strong and stand firm against the Arab attacks upon French industry.

Our failures to make short term economic sacrifices is why the West is dying.
We would save a few dollars in the short term only to destroy everything in the long term.

So hopefully France holds up instead of selling out.

Unfortunately all the anti-Western authoritarians now know our weakness (our neoliberal greed) and are using it quite effectively to crush us.

[Byzconia]

Im not preventing people from practicing their religion. I’m just saying that when in public, meaning not on religious grounds, place of worship, or home, they can’t outwardly show that they follow a religion.

If that means they can’t practice their religion than tough shit

That's purely arbitrary and you know it. There's zero reason why people can't be openly religious in public.

Unless you really just can't handle little old ladies praying their rosaries on the tram?

It's not arbitrary, it's based on the way France's culture has evolved in regards to religion. French nationalism requires loyalty to the French nation (that is to say, the concept of "being French") above all else. People openly displaying religious affiliations in public creates opportunities for discord and disruption in society, and thus is harmful to the French national identity. It's the same reason Ataturk adopted the same policies in Turkey--he wanted people to be more loyal to the concept of the Turkish nation than they were to their god.

Given what's happened in Turkey since, it's hard to blame him, really. France could be argued as a different story, but then again, when you hear stories out of some countries of Muslims (or non-Muslims mistaken for Muslims) being attacked or killed because they're wearing overtly religious clothing, maybe it's not such a bad idea overall.

[Insaanistan]

Funny how they call to boycott France while sucking up to the PRC. Apparently cartoons are bad, but concentration camps are good. You can toss Muslims in camps and harvest their organs, as long as you do not have Muhammad cartoons.

The policies of so much of the Arab world are so utterly morally bankrupt. But the regimes need their circuses to keep the people in line, while robbing them blind. I have to say from stay in power perspective they are smart, albeit completely sociopathic.

Again, most Muslims absolutely hate the govts of Muslim-majority countries.