Arab boycott on France begins!

[Thermodolia]

Yes, as are women who are wearing those vails in Christian faiths

I think it’s oppressive forcing people not to wear them and having a societal standard that less clothes on women=more freedom and forcing women to conform to the standards of men and objectifying them to the point companies feel a need to put a half naked women on a comercial or billboard to sell a car, or cologne, or something else.

Forcing women to cover up their bodies in what amounts to tarps is extremely oppressive but of course the person who defended Islamic slavery wouldn’t think that

[Aureumterra III]

No, I supported it because it was a blanket ruling on religion in public overall- also banning large crosses, for example.

Why not crosses in general to make it equal?

So basically you want every church to remove the cross on the spire?

[Thermodolia]

Not wearing religious garments in public isn’t a violation of freedom. It’s so that nobody gets pissy or upset over the fact that they might be sitting next to a Jew or Muslim or what have you.

The less markers there are in public the better.

How every dystopia came to be:“Let’s force everyone to be exactly the same to all be happy!”

I didn’t say anything remotely close to that.

If you can’t have a personality without it being wrapped up in your religion then you got a problem

[Thermodolia]

Yes, as are women who are wearing those vails in Christian faiths

How would you be oppressed for choosing to become a nun? It's not as if women are forced to become nuns, it's a vocation people are called to, as are men to becoming monks or priests.

As for veils, that's also not typically forced, at least not in Catholicism. It's usually seen as a very pious thing to do, but nobody's forced to do it.

As long as it’s not in public.

[Sanghyeok]

Why not crosses in general to make it equal?

So basically you want every church to remove the cross on the spire?

Different subjects. I support laïcité in general for all religions in terms of what people wear and do, not religious buildings.

[Insaanistan]

Yes, as are women who are wearing those vails in Christian faiths

How would you be oppressed for choosing to become a nun? It's not as if women are forced to become nuns, it's a vocation people are called to, as are men to becoming monks or priests.

As for veils, that's also not typically forced, at least not in Catholicism. It's usually seen as a very pious thing to do, but nobody's forced to do it.

I remember one Iranian girl talking about the hijab enforcement in Iran. She said something like
“Before the enforcement, when you saw someone wearing hijab, it really meant something. It meant they chose to wear it, and loved it. You gave extra respect to people who wore it. Now, everyone had to wear it, and it’s meaning was lost. It’d be like if all Americans had to wear a Star of David or a cross.”

[Thermodolia]

Dude are you being purposely obtuse or what? Because you seem to continuously miss the points where I say I don’t give a fly fuck what your religion is I don’t want to see it in public.

You are special for being a fucking Muslim so don’t act like it, and yes the fact you are making it all about you is very snowflakey

“Special” how, akhi?

You aren’t special. Meant to say aren’t but missed the t

[Resilient Acceleration]

As much of a militant atheist as I am, I wouldn't wanna live in a world where people get arrested and sent to gulag for practicing religion, especially Islam. It isnt a good way to end religion.

Eh. I guess I didn't exactly word it right. I meant freedom of religious expression rather than being religious in general.

Some restrictions eventually will be needed. Part of what has prevented Indonesia from falling into the trap of hardline Islam and thus maintain its national integration is the systematic social persecution against expressions of hardline Islam, from veils that covers your mouth to pants that don't cover your ankle.

Admittedly the persecution has been slowly going away after the fall of the military dictatorship, but I noticed that the current government is now trying to ramp up the fight against hardline Islam following the 2016-2019 fiasco. Paid mobilized buzzers actively calls out caliphate supporters, hardline ulemas are systematically persecuted by ordering the state intelligence to attack their reputation, or even openly by arresting them for hate speech laws violations.

[Insaanistan]

How every dystopia came to be:“Let’s force everyone to be exactly the same to all be happy!”

I didn’t say anything remotely close to that.

If you can’t have a personality without it being wrapped up in your religion then you got a problem

Less markers... meaning people look less different.

And that’s part of who we are. Is it the only thing? Of course not. But to Muslims who wear the hijab despite the objections of people like you, often times against the objections of their parents, it means a lot to them.

[Thermodolia]

The French method, which bans the public practice of religion, is the best way to go.

I have no problem if people practice their religion inside. Just don’t show it to the world. Like a dick I’m fine if you have one just don’t whip it out in public, shove it in my face, or show it to children

Why? We shouldn’t be proud?

Because it’s not really anything special. Wear all the clothing you want at home or in your place of worship just not in the goddamn shopping center

Should be ban sports clothes because people should support teams only inside?

Also, I’ve seen that quote before somewhere...

This is a dumb question

[Thermodolia]

I didn’t say anything remotely close to that.

If you can’t have a personality without it being wrapped up in your religion then you got a problem

Less markers... meaning people look less different.

And that’s part of who we are. Is it the only thing? Of course not. But to Muslims who wear the hijab despite the objections of people like you, often times against the objections of their parents, it means a lot to them.

Again if your personality is so wrapped up in your religion that you can’t fathom people being different without religion in the public sphere then you have a problem

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

The usual sequence of events following a terrorist attack:

Attack happens

People start protesting and show solidarity to the victims

Certain people immediately jump in to call those showing solidarity Islamophobic xenophobes

The "NotAllMuslims" crowd jumps in and says the REAL oppression is happening to Muslims who didn’t commit violent acts, forgetting the fact that a good chunk of them, to some degree, defend these actions

Someone proposes a law or bill to the legislature

The usual suspects immediately start screaming about how said law is racist and promotes Islamophobia, causing the law to not pass

As a result nothing actually changes, and we wait for the next attack

Cycle repeats

[Salus Maior]

How would you be oppressed for choosing to become a nun? It's not as if women are forced to become nuns, it's a vocation people are called to, as are men to becoming monks or priests.

As for veils, that's also not typically forced, at least not in Catholicism. It's usually seen as a very pious thing to do, but nobody's forced to do it.

As long as it’s not in public.

Then you're doing the oppressing, my guy.

You're claiming that religious garb is oppressive because, conceivably, you'd be suppressing self-expression. But then you're just doing the same thing.

[Thermodolia]

The usual sequence of events following a terrorist attack:

Attack happens

People start protesting and show solidarity to the victims

Certain people immediately jump in to call those showing solidarity Islamophobic xenophobes

The "NotAllMuslims" crowd jumps in and says the REAL oppression is happening to Muslims who didn’t commit violent acts, forgetting the fact that a good chunk of them, to some degree, defend these actions

Someone proposes a law or bill to the legislature

The usual suspects immediately start screaming about how said law is racist and promotes Islamophobia, causing the law to not pass

As a result nothing actually changes, and we wait for the next attack

And people wonder why certain phobias are growing

[Thermodolia]

As long as it’s not in public.

Then you're doing the oppressing, my guy.

You're claiming that religious garb is oppressive because, conceivably, you'd be suppressing self-expression. But then you're just doing the same thing.

It’s no different than what France does. And tbh I don’t care

[Salus Maior]

Then you're doing the oppressing, my guy.

You're claiming that religious garb is oppressive because, conceivably, you'd be suppressing self-expression. But then you're just doing the same thing.

It’s no different than what France does. And tbh I don’t care

Well, at least you're openly just a bigot then.

Because short of "I hate the religious" you haven't provided any kind of real reason why this should happen.

[Thermodolia]

It’s no different than what France does. And tbh I don’t care

Well, at least you're openly just a bigot then.

Because short of "I hate the religious" you haven't provided any kind of real reason why this should happen.

It has nothing to do with hating the religious and more because I don’t want people to think of themselves as religion first and then National identity but the opposite. I want people to view themselves as Americans first and their religion second.

And one way to do that is to follow the French system of State Secularism. It also reduces the amount of hate crimes against people of different religions because when they are in the public sphere you have no idea what religion they follow.

[Lost Memories]

Laicitè isn't about Islam though, it's about religion's influence in general. Of course, I think France should use it more against certain Catholic groups...

That's the distorted modernist version of Laicity.

Laicity, or separation of church and state, is about separation of institutions, church institutions and state institutions.
It's about a bishop not being allowed to directly change state laws. And state politicians not being allowed to directly change religious laws.
It doesn't mean separation of religion and state, religious citizens can still take part in politics.

[Thermodolia]

Laicitè isn't about Islam though, it's about religion's influence in general. Of course, I think France should use it more against certain Catholic groups...

That's the distorted modernist version of Laicity.

Laicity, or separation of church and state, is about separation of institutions, church institutions and state institutions.
It's about a bishop not being allowed to directly change state laws. And state politicians not being allowed to directly change religious laws.
It doesn't mean separation of religion and state, religious citizens can still take part in politics.

The French version definitely means separation of religion and state. So much so that crosses are not common on churches in France and instead the Republican symbol replaces it.

Also in France the government owns the majority of religious places of worship and not the religions themselves.
France makes it very clear that religion and the state are totally separate.

You are going by the American version which is less extreme than the French one

[Salus Maior]

Well, at least you're openly just a bigot then.

Because short of "I hate the religious" you haven't provided any kind of real reason why this should happen.

It has nothing to do with hating the religious and more because I don’t want people to think of themselves as religion first and then National identity but the opposite. I want people to view themselves as Americans first and their religion second.

And one way to do that is to follow the French system of State Secularism. It also reduces the amount of hate crimes against people of different religions because when they are in the public sphere you have no idea what religion they follow.

And if their religion plays a significant role in their National Identity and why they're loyal to America?

I can't tell you how many Evangelicals believe that America is the greatest country in the world because they're free to practice. Whether you like them or not, they are patriots.

Here's your mistake on that bit: when Americans commit religiously motivated crimes, they look at skin color first because of course, America is a racist society. How many Sikhs have been murdered because people were looking to murder a Muslim, for example? Hell, even Arabic Christians have been murdered having been mistaken for Muslims.

[Baltenstein]

Also in France the government owns the majority of religious places of worship and not the religions themselves.
France makes it very clear that religion and the state are totally separate.

There seems to be some discrepancy between those two sentences. How can there be total separation between Church and State when the Church is the State's property?

A quick check confirmed that the French government owns a number of pre-1905 built places of worship and considers them public property, but all places of worship built post-1905 are completely privatized and receive no subsidies whatsoever from the government.

[Insaanistan]

The usual sequence of events following a terrorist attack:

Attack happens

People start protesting and show solidarity to the victims

Certain people immediately jump in to call those showing solidarity Islamophobic xenophobes

The "NotAllMuslims" crowd jumps in and says the REAL oppression is happening to Muslims who didn’t commit violent acts, forgetting the fact that a good chunk of them, to some degree, defend these actions

Someone proposes a law or bill to the legislature

The usual suspects immediately start screaming about how said law is racist and promotes Islamophobia, causing the law to not pass

As a result nothing actually changes, and we wait for the next attack

Cycle repeats

Change that to Islamophobic bills get passed and Islamophobia increases greatly.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

The usual sequence of events following a terrorist attack:

Attack happens

People start protesting and show solidarity to the victims

Certain people immediately jump in to call those showing solidarity Islamophobic xenophobes

The "NotAllMuslims" crowd jumps in and says the REAL oppression is happening to Muslims who didn’t commit violent acts, forgetting the fact that a good chunk of them, to some degree, defend these actions

Someone proposes a law or bill to the legislature

The usual suspects immediately start screaming about how said law is racist and promotes Islamophobia, causing the law to not pass

As a result nothing actually changes, and we wait for the next attack

And people wonder why certain phobias are growing

Islamaphobia isn't being against Islam though. That's just not supporting hate and bigotry. Islamaphobia is when you see someone who looks Muslim and automatically assume they're the bad guy. I can understand why people wouldn't be fans of Islam but I am concerned about people thinking Muslims in general as people are shitty people or even worse thinking that anyone who is Arab or looks Arab is the problem.

[Resilient Acceleration]

And people wonder why certain phobias are growing

Islamaphobia isn't being against Islam though. That's just not supporting hate and bigotry. Islamaphobia is when you see someone who looks Muslim and automatically assume they're the bad guy. I can understand why people wouldn't be fans of Islam but I am concerned about people thinking Muslims in general as people are shitty people or even worse thinking that anyone who is Arab or looks Arab is the problem.

I think we should introduce the term "Muslimophobia" to differentiate between criticism of religion and unjust bigotry against groups.

[Thermodolia]

It has nothing to do with hating the religious and more because I don’t want people to think of themselves as religion first and then National identity but the opposite. I want people to view themselves as Americans first and their religion second.

And one way to do that is to follow the French system of State Secularism. It also reduces the amount of hate crimes against people of different religions because when they are in the public sphere you have no idea what religion they follow.

And if their religion plays a significant role in their National Identity and why they're loyal to America?

I can't tell you how many Evangelicals believe that America is the greatest country in the world because they're free to practice. Whether you like them or not, they are patriots.

Im not preventing people from practicing their religion. I’m just saying that when in public, meaning not on religious grounds, place of worship, or home, they can’t outwardly show that they follow a religion.

If that means they can’t practice their religion than tough shit