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On blaming religion for Trump

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:14 pm

The Cosmic Mainframe wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Because Trump is the second coming of Hitler, obviously. Never mind we said the same thing about Bush and it didn't come true.

Bush was pretty bad. We seem to be forgetting that now that there is a different bad Republican in office.

I've never claimed he wasn't. I don't like Bush.
But he wasn't literally Hitler the way the left tried to paint him back then, and neither is Trump now.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:16 pm

Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Trump's a bigger threat to democracy and rule of law than Bush was.

Though frankly, I had a problem with it back then too but just sugar-coated it (relatively) more.

Oh please. Donald J. Trump may be good at playing reality TV tactics to get elected, but there's no way in hell that you could convince me that he is competent or ill-intentioned enough to tear down American democracy.

I mean, he's not literally Hitler for crying out loud. He's just a businessman. And this is coming from a guy that doesn't even like Trump for being so centrist.


Is he now?

Making people distrust the Press? Check
Making people distrust the legal system? Check.
Making people trust corrupt law enforcement? Check.
Making people distrust experts? Check.
Working to improve our enemies? Check.
Working against our allies? Check.

He is a crap businessman, a horrible negotiator and works against our interests.

Trump is the kind of guy who if aliens conquered the US; he would offer to run the place for them.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:19 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:Oh please. Donald J. Trump may be good at playing reality TV tactics to get elected, but there's no way in hell that you could convince me that he is competent or ill-intentioned enough to tear down American democracy.

I mean, he's not literally Hitler for crying out loud. He's just a businessman. And this is coming from a guy that doesn't even like Trump for being so centrist.


Is he now?

Making people distrust the Press? Check
Making people distrust the legal system? Check.
Making people trust corrupt law enforcement? Check.
Making people distrust experts? Check.
Working to improve our enemies? Check.
Working against our allies? Check.

He is a crap businessman, a horrible negotiator and works against our interests.

Trump is the kind of guy who if aliens conquered the US; he would offer to run the place for them.

Trump's more of a Marius than a Sulla.
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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:26 pm

Religious people are more Republican while Atheists are more Democrat, while not entirely exact, they vote for yeah.

Plus, this OP seems anti-Trump and anti-religion biased. Who said Trump is bad? And even more, what does religion have to do with this?

On the Bible contradiction part, yeah, people have found answers for that. And you really, really, did not need to throw anti-religious bias into this, but your wish. Anyway, really, really, really, what about Muslims? The "Something Else" part which includes other religions voted more for Hillary than Trump!
Last edited by La xinga on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire
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Postby Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:33 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:Oh please. Donald J. Trump may be good at playing reality TV tactics to get elected, but there's no way in hell that you could convince me that he is competent or ill-intentioned enough to tear down American democracy.

I mean, he's not literally Hitler for crying out loud. He's just a businessman. And this is coming from a guy that doesn't even like Trump for being so centrist.


Is he now?

Making people distrust the Press? Check
Making people distrust the legal system? Check.
Making people trust corrupt law enforcement? Check.
Making people distrust experts? Check.
Working to improve our enemies? Check.
Working against our allies? Check.

He is a crap businessman, a horrible negotiator and works against our interests.

Trump is the kind of guy who if aliens conquered the US; he would offer to run the place for them.

Yeah, but he's still not literally Hitler, especially considering Bush did worse. I mean, Bush literally catapulted us into the War on Terror, the recession hit under him, and several acts that restricted our freedom are as a result of his administration or it's fallout during the 2000s and 2010s.

Now you can say that Trump also saw an economic collapse much worse than Bush, but keep in mind this was from a pandemic that, while he did make it much, MUCH worse, was unavoidable in causing serious economic damage due to the lockdown.

Also distrusting the government is nothing new, Trump just exacerbated that.
Last edited by Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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-Astoria-
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Postby -Astoria- » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:35 pm

La xinga wrote:Religious people are more Republican while Atheists are more Democrat, while not entirely exact, they vote for yeah.

Plus, this OP seems anti-Trump and anti-religion biased. Who said Trump is bad? And even more, what does religion have to do with this?

On the Bible contradiction part, yeah, people have found answers for that. And you really, really, did not need to throw anti-religious bias into this, but your wish. Anyway, really, really, really, what about Muslims?
Go back a bit; start again.

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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:40 pm

-Astoria- wrote:
La xinga wrote:Religious people are more Republican while Atheists are more Democrat, while not entirely exact, they vote for yeah.

Plus, this OP seems anti-Trump and anti-religion biased. Who said Trump is bad? And even more, what does religion have to do with this?

On the Bible contradiction part, yeah, people have found answers for that. And you really, really, did not need to throw anti-religious bias into this, but your wish. Anyway, really, really, really, what about Muslims?
Go back a bit; start again.

I'm honestly confused what you mean by this.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

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#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:42 pm

Why does Jerry Falwell Jr. like Trump? What happened to those family values and morality?
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:45 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Why does Jerry Falwell Jr. like Trump? What happened to those family values and morality?

Religious Christians- and other religious people- have always cared more about a leaders policies than their personal behavior. This isn't new. Sometimes it's theologically justified(Roman Catholicism, for example) sometimes it's not(most Arminian protestants), and sometimes the denomination in question acts all confused when you ask them to justify it theologically, but it is a universal rule.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:50 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Why does Jerry Falwell Jr. like Trump? What happened to those family values and morality?

Religious Christians- and other religious people- have always cared more about a leaders policies than their personal behavior. This isn't new. Sometimes it's theologically justified(Roman Catholicism, for example) sometimes it's not(most Arminian protestants), and sometimes the denomination in question acts all confused when you ask them to justify it theologically, but it is a universal rule.


It isnt even that he chose him as a lesser of evils though. Falwell legit seems to believe Trump was born again, which most people understand is simply not true.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:51 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Religious Christians- and other religious people- have always cared more about a leaders policies than their personal behavior. This isn't new. Sometimes it's theologically justified(Roman Catholicism, for example) sometimes it's not(most Arminian protestants), and sometimes the denomination in question acts all confused when you ask them to justify it theologically, but it is a universal rule.


It isnt even that he chose him as a lesser of evils though. Falwell legit seems to believe Trump was born again, which most people understand is simply not true.

Oh, yeah, there are definitely evangelical leaders who are either deluded or lying when it comes to Trump, but for a lot of those people being deluded or lying isn't really new.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:54 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:In 2016, I recall hearing people blame MRAs for Trump, as if he didn't himself invoke misandrous-sounding rhetoric like "a lot of these refugees are men" or as if the supposed alternative; feminism; even had any real definition at all.

In 2020, I get mistaken for a Trump supporter whenever I express rhetoric similar to his on China.

However, there is one thing that actually does correlate; far more incontrovertibly, at least; with support for Donald Trump. And that thing is something people feel a lot more uncomfortable blaming for his election.

The popularity of religion.

(Image)

(Image)

People often like to argue Trump isn't a true Christian. I wouldn't be shocked if he's faking it and all, but there's no metric by which to gauge this. You could argue his lifestyle contradicts the Bible; but that would leave behind the question, what parts? So long as the Bible is so notoriously contradictory, is it any shock that people who ignore the Bible's contradictions would ignore Trump's too?

What I would presume is that when religion sets a precedent for a lack of critical thinking; which it most definitely does by using an unproven afterlife to bribe people into accepting its unproven claims; it sets a precedent for charlatans in the real world to do the same with crazy promises about the real world. I'm not shocked devout Christians tend to be Trump supporters; I'm shocked there are Christians who are otherwise progressive.

What say you, NSG?


"Keep religion out of politics!"
"How dare don't you take religion into account when you vote!"

Make up your mind, will ya?

After Bill Clinton's shift to Neoliberalism from the Progressive ideas that the Democrat Party used to hold for the working class, the folks in flyover country shifted parties. These folks also happened to be religious, but most people, including most of these folks, vote on the basis of the economy, rather than religion.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-aven ... ging-fast/

This is what happened during Obama's Presidency:

Image


And yet you're shocked that these folks are voting Republican...
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Postby Shofercia » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:58 pm

Vassenor wrote:Who the fuck blamed religion for Trump?


The OP of the very thread that you're responding to.


Vistulange wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:That's a copout. The stronger a correlation, the less likely a coincidence, and the more likely either one factor caused the other or; in this case, more likely, some external factor caused both.

A thousand quantitative scientists cried out in anguish at this statement.


Only a thousand?


Borderlands of Rojava wrote:I dont see how someone can support trump and be all about religious values. I'm sorry but the man is an adulterer and has said he doesn't need God's forgiveness, so he's well outside the boundaries of Christian morality.


If you're going to vote for Religious Virtue in American Politics, than you might as well not vote. Did Governor Cuomo love his neighbors by exterminating them through placing infected people in elderly homes, a more modern version of British Smallpox Blankets?


The Black Forrest wrote:
Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire wrote:Oh please. Donald J. Trump may be good at playing reality TV tactics to get elected, but there's no way in hell that you could convince me that he is competent or ill-intentioned enough to tear down American democracy.

I mean, he's not literally Hitler for crying out loud. He's just a businessman. And this is coming from a guy that doesn't even like Trump for being so centrist.


Is he now?

Making people distrust the Press? Check
Making people distrust the legal system? Check.
Making people trust corrupt law enforcement? Check.
Making people distrust experts? Check.
Working to improve our enemies? Check.
Working against our allies? Check.

He is a crap businessman, a horrible negotiator and works against our interests.

Trump is the kind of guy who if aliens conquered the US; he would offer to run the place for them.


Not sure how Trump affected the legal system, considering that he doesn't seem to understand it. Corrupt law enforcement gained fans when the other side started screaming "DEFUND THE POLICE!!!" Experts are usually on both sides of the issue, unless we're talking about something as obvious as Global Warming, and most Americans understand that Global Warming exists.

Why don't you go to Europe, and ask US Allies what they through of Clinton's Balkan Campaigns, Bush's Iraq War, and Obama's Arab Spring Policy, which created a massive flow of refugees to Europe, which, when combined with austerity, is leading to the Rise of the Right. As for enemies, he took out some and emboldened others, just like any other president. The only thing he did was that he humiliated corporate media, and honestly, they had it coming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmdFne7LnuA&t=67s

It was the media that made Trump's primary campaign, half-assed their reporting during the general election, and went apeshit insane when he won.


Diopolis wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Why does Jerry Falwell Jr. like Trump? What happened to those family values and morality?

Religious Christians- and other religious people- have always cared more about a leaders policies than their personal behavior. This isn't new. Sometimes it's theologically justified(Roman Catholicism, for example) sometimes it's not(most Arminian protestants), and sometimes the denomination in question acts all confused when you ask them to justify it theologically, but it is a universal rule.


^ This
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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:02 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Who the fuck blamed religion for Trump?

Me.

Well, there you go. An unimpeachable source.

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-Astoria-
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Postby -Astoria- » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:02 pm

La xinga wrote:
-Astoria- wrote:Go back a bit; start again.

I'm honestly confused what you mean by this.
When you say "what about", it damages your point (ie a whataboutism).

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Postby Outer Acharet » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:04 pm

Shofercia wrote:
This is what happened during Obama's Presidency:



And yet you're shocked that these folks are voting Republican...


Oh, yeah. That's a thing. It's no wonder that poor white rural voters went for Trump. Look at Democratic politicians, and you see their arguments tie poverty into race a lot of the time, and so poor minorities have attention drawn to their problems, while poor whites get called white trash, have people joke about "tornado in a trailer park", are assumed to be inbred, don't get any positive reinforcements on their lives, are ridiculously stereotyped, and are culturally isolated from the rest of America.

Combine a poor liberal arts and sciences education, a history of abandonment by politicians on both sides, and a leader who both promises he'll look after you and riles you up against a convenient scapegoat, and it's no surprise there was a red wave in 2016.
Not anymore, you don't.

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Postby Wahlid » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:05 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:I dont see how someone can support trump and be all about religious values. I'm sorry but the man is an adulterer and has said he doesn't need God's forgiveness, so he's well outside the boundaries of Christian morality.


Salaam alaikum, jefe :bow:

It isn't religious people supporting Trump in general. It's really mostly just white Christians and nonwhite evangelical Protestants. And even then I'm seeing a ton of white women on Bumble (mostly in their twenties) who identify as "Christian" and "politically liberal".
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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:06 pm

-Astoria- wrote:
La xinga wrote:I'm honestly confused what you mean by this.
When you say "what about", it damages your point (ie a whataboutism).

I did already, in fact everyone said something else wrong with this point.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

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If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
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Wahlid
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Postby Wahlid » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:09 pm

Outer Acharet wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
This is what happened during Obama's Presidency:



And yet you're shocked that these folks are voting Republican...


Oh, yeah. That's a thing. It's no wonder that poor white rural voters went for Trump. Look at Democratic politicians, and you see their arguments tie poverty into race a lot of the time, and so poor minorities have attention drawn to their problems, while poor whites get called white trash, have people joke about "tornado in a trailer park", are assumed to be inbred, don't get any positive reinforcements on their lives, are ridiculously stereotyped, and are culturally isolated from the rest of America.

Combine a poor liberal arts and sciences education, a history of abandonment by politicians on both sides, and a leader who both promises he'll look after you and riles you up against a convenient scapegoat, and it's no surprise there was a red wave in 2016.


.
Last edited by Wahlid on Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:11 pm

Outer Acharet wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
This is what happened during Obama's Presidency:



And yet you're shocked that these folks are voting Republican...


Oh, yeah. That's a thing. It's no wonder that poor white rural voters went for Trump. Look at Democratic politicians, and you see their arguments tie poverty into race a lot of the time, and so poor minorities have attention drawn to their problems, while poor whites get called white trash, have people joke about "tornado in a trailer park", are assumed to be inbred, don't get any positive reinforcements on their lives, are ridiculously stereotyped, and are culturally isolated from the rest of America.

Combine a poor liberal arts and sciences education, a history of abandonment by politicians on both sides, and a leader who both promises he'll look after you and riles you up against a convenient scapegoat, and it's no surprise there was a red wave in 2016.


A few years before Trump came around, I told my dad "its amazing how there are politicians who claim to speak for poor minorities (they don't really do shit for them but they claim to speak for them) but no one speaks for poor white folks. They're forsaken by both Republicans and Democrats."
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:47 pm

Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:49 pm

Atheris wrote:Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.


I don't blame religion. Matter of fact this is one time where if people did the religious thing, trump wouldn't have been elected.
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:50 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Atheris wrote:Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.


I don't blame religion. Matter of fact this is one time where if people did the religious thing, trump wouldn't have been elected.

I wasn't necessarily referring to you, but yeah, you're right.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:51 pm

Is it religion or is it the Evangelical base? Because they seem to not have any principals to stand on as long as Trump bans de gayz.
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La xinga
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Postby La xinga » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:51 pm

Atheris wrote:Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.

While my sig would be too big if I put this, this is sig worthy.
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