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MAGAThread XIX: Hambergers, Noble Prizes, & Disinfectant

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Unifair
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Posts: 16
Founded: Apr 13, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Unifair » Fri May 22, 2020 4:06 pm

If you can worship,pray or read the King James Bible from end to end at home,you don’t have a pressing need to go to church during a pandemic.

When I was a practicing and more faithful Christian,I preferred to do my prayers at home,as I felt closer and felt more of God’s presence somehow than I would in a church full of people. But to each their own I guess.

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Hakons
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Founded: Jul 14, 2015
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Hakons » Fri May 22, 2020 4:08 pm

Brunswick-upon-Raritan wrote:
Hakons wrote:
The obvious contradiction here is that the State is forcing the closure of worship services. The State isn't respecting the separation when it demands the reopening of access to public worship, but it is when it demands the closure of Churches?



The problem is the Federal government (Trump) can’t order the States to close or reopen churches because of the Tenth Amendment, not the First Amendment. The Tenth Amendment gives States the inherent sovereignty to enact whatever public health measures they deem necessary, as the Supreme Court said in 1824. And as long as states are neutral in imposing restrictions on all gatherings, not targeted groups, they don’t violate the First Amendment.


As religious freedom advocates have been litigating, and at times winning, many government's aren't imposing neutral restrictions. If restaurants can open and seat people, then Churches can open and seat people. Many states have been discriminating against Churches by keeping religious restrictions in place while loosening commercial restrictions.

In Minnesota, the Catholic and Lutheran bishops straight-up declared they won't follow the religious restrictions anymore because commercial restrictions are lifting while religious ones aren't. In France, of all places, the highest court said the government has to lift religious restrictions in the next week or else it's violating fundamental rights.
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Solomons Land
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Solomons Land » Fri May 22, 2020 4:09 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
There is a very strong argument to make that the medieval church was the world's first real estate private equity fund, given the way it managed its lands throughout Europe.

They also effectively had their own private military through the Knights groups


Not only that, they were a monopoly until some guy decided to put a nail in a church door.
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Fri May 22, 2020 4:13 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
But states? Because there are no restrictions on movement between states, one state declaring itself to be a sanctuary state is essentially imposing its open border policy on the rest of the country. That's nullification-tier shit Andy Jackson would have slapped down.

...

Those undocumented immigrants can be arrested when they set foot in another city? They cannot actually live anywhere else than the sanctuary city.

And even in those cities if the federal government discovers them, they are not protected by the city/state.
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Maineiacs
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Founded: May 26, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maineiacs » Fri May 22, 2020 4:17 pm

Sundiata wrote:I completely disagree with the president on this one and so does my church.



When my parish re-opens is up to the diocese, not the governor, and not Trump.
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Thermodolia
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Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri May 22, 2020 4:18 pm

Sundiata wrote:I completely disagree with the president on this one and so does my church.

You aren’t forced to open
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Neutraligon
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Fri May 22, 2020 4:19 pm

If restaurants are and other businesses are being opened they churches should also be allowed to open. If the state is yet to open businesses then churches should remain "closed." With the existence of the internet you can very easily hold services for your congregation online.
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Bienenhalde
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Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bienenhalde » Fri May 22, 2020 4:20 pm

Solomons Land wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:They also effectively had their own private military through the Knights groups


Not only that, they were a monopoly until some guy decided to put a nail in a church door.


Whether or not they were a "monopoly" was irrelevent because Christ never intended that churches should compete with one another as if they were for-profit businesses in a capitalist marketplace. The Reformation was certainly necessary to to corruption in the Renaissance Catholic Church, but it was unfortunate that Rome excommunicated Luther instead of listening to his sound preaching and fully correcting the error of their ways.
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Hakons
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Founded: Jul 14, 2015
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Hakons » Fri May 22, 2020 4:20 pm

Maineiacs wrote:
Sundiata wrote:I completely disagree with the president on this one and so does my church.



When my parish re-opens is up to the diocese, not the governor, and not Trump.


This is what real religious liberty is. My diocese has been smart about this and doesn't need government interference.
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Solomons Land
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Founded: May 16, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Solomons Land » Fri May 22, 2020 4:21 pm

Maineiacs wrote:
Sundiata wrote:I completely disagree with the president on this one and so does my church.



When my parish re-opens is up to the diocese, not the governor, and not Trump.


Yes, however, a stupid bishop should not be able to put thousands of his congregants at risk. I am not implying your bishop is stupid, but the government should have a strong hand in times like these.
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Maineiacs
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maineiacs » Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm

Hakons wrote:
Maineiacs wrote:

When my parish re-opens is up to the diocese, not the governor, and not Trump.


This is what real religious liberty is. My diocese has been smart about this and doesn't need government interference.



I imagine our Bishop will consult with state health officials, but the decision rests with him, not them, and certainly not with that jackass in Washington.
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La xinga
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Posts: 1977
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Fri May 22, 2020 4:36 pm

Maineiacs wrote:
Hakons wrote:
This is what real religious liberty is. My diocese has been smart about this and doesn't need government interference.



I imagine our Bishop will consult with state health officials, but the decision rests with him, not them, and certainly not with that jackass in Washington.

Do the bishop and the trumpet (head?) have good or bad relations?
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Maineiacs
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Founded: May 26, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maineiacs » Fri May 22, 2020 4:39 pm

La xinga wrote:
Maineiacs wrote:

I imagine our Bishop will consult with state health officials, but the decision rests with him, not them, and certainly not with that jackass in Washington.

Do the bishop and the trumpet (head?) have good or bad relations?



No clue.
Economic:-8.12 Social:-7.59 Moral Rules:5 Moral Order:-5
Muravyets: Maineiacs, you are brilliant, too! I stand in delighted awe.
Sane Outcasts:When your best case scenario is five kilometers of nuclear contamination, you know someone fucked up.
Geniasis: Christian values are incompatible with Conservative ideals. I cannot both follow the teachings of Christ and be a Republican. Therefore, I choose to not be a Republican.
Galloism: If someone will build a wall around Donald Trump, I'll pay for it.
Bottle tells it like it is
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Solomons Land
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Founded: May 16, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Solomons Land » Fri May 22, 2020 4:43 pm

La xinga wrote:
Maineiacs wrote:

I imagine our Bishop will consult with state health officials, but the decision rests with him, not them, and certainly not with that jackass in Washington.

Do the bishop and the trumpet (head?) have good or bad relations?


Trump could not care less about the bishops. He calls himself Presbyterian, but he is essentially agnostic.
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Maineiacs
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Founded: May 26, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maineiacs » Fri May 22, 2020 4:45 pm

Solomons Land wrote:
La xinga wrote:Do the bishop and the trumpet (head?) have good or bad relations?


Trump could not care less about the bishops. He calls himself Presbyterian, but he is essentially agnostic.



Trump worships Mammon.
Economic:-8.12 Social:-7.59 Moral Rules:5 Moral Order:-5
Muravyets: Maineiacs, you are brilliant, too! I stand in delighted awe.
Sane Outcasts:When your best case scenario is five kilometers of nuclear contamination, you know someone fucked up.
Geniasis: Christian values are incompatible with Conservative ideals. I cannot both follow the teachings of Christ and be a Republican. Therefore, I choose to not be a Republican.
Galloism: If someone will build a wall around Donald Trump, I'll pay for it.
Bottle tells it like it is
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Diopolis
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Posts: 16516
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Fri May 22, 2020 4:46 pm

Maineiacs wrote:
Hakons wrote:
This is what real religious liberty is. My diocese has been smart about this and doesn't need government interference.



I imagine our Bishop will consult with state health officials, but the decision rests with him, not them, and certainly not with that jackass in Washington.

Most of the Dioceses in my state(Texas) reopened when the state government recommended it. Dallas is the main holdout and the bishop's facing backlash over that- from laypeople in the Diocese.
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Diopolis
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Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Fri May 22, 2020 4:47 pm

La xinga wrote:
Maineiacs wrote:

I imagine our Bishop will consult with state health officials, but the decision rests with him, not them, and certainly not with that jackass in Washington.

Do the bishop and the trumpet (head?) have good or bad relations?

Trump has poor relations with most Catholic bishops. He does have good relations with the SSPX, and with a few individual bishops, but not with the USCCB as a whole.
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Valrifell
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Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Fri May 22, 2020 4:49 pm

Blatant red meat to the evangelical conservatives, though somehow not the most dangerous thing he's suggested in recent weeks.
For the benefit of all humankind

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Valrifell
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Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Fri May 22, 2020 4:50 pm

Maineiacs wrote:
Solomons Land wrote:
Trump could not care less about the bishops. He calls himself Presbyterian, but he is essentially agnostic.



Trump worships Mammon.


I don't think greed really suits him all that well. I think Lucifer is the better pick, he seems more motivated by his pride than greed.
For the benefit of all humankind

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Katganistan
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Posts: 33354
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Katganistan » Fri May 22, 2020 4:50 pm

Hakons wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:That's not something he can enforce, nor is it something that he should be able to.

Separation of Church and State works both ways or not at all.


The obvious contradiction here is that the State is forcing the closure of worship services. The State isn't respecting the separation when it demands the reopening of access to public worship, but it is when it demands the closure of Churches?

Public safety overrules all.

They're not going to let you go into a church if there's an active shooter situation either.

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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58837
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri May 22, 2020 4:51 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Maineiacs wrote:

I imagine our Bishop will consult with state health officials, but the decision rests with him, not them, and certainly not with that jackass in Washington.

Most of the Dioceses in my state(Texas) reopened when the state government recommended it. Dallas is the main holdout and the bishop's facing backlash over that- from laypeople in the Diocese.

Does DWF have a high rate of cases or something?

Even Atlanta is opening up on the 25th, though individual parishes can request to remain closed or preform outside mass.
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Diopolis
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Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Fri May 22, 2020 4:53 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Most of the Dioceses in my state(Texas) reopened when the state government recommended it. Dallas is the main holdout and the bishop's facing backlash over that- from laypeople in the Diocese.

Does DWF have a high rate of cases or something?

Even Atlanta is opening up on the 25th, though individual parishes can request to remain closed or preform outside mass.

Dallas doesn't seem to have that high a case rate(and in any case, Fort Worth has been open for weeks). It probably has to do with the intersection of the bishop's personality and the makeup of the diocesan council.
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Stellonia
Minister
 
Posts: 2088
Founded: Mar 29, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Stellonia » Fri May 22, 2020 4:55 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:is your sig meant to say "anti-islamophobe" ? islamophobe seems pretty inconsistent with the rest of it.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1368009

There is a significant difference between its and it's.

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Katganistan
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Posts: 33354
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Katganistan » Fri May 22, 2020 4:55 pm

Maineiacs wrote:
Solomons Land wrote:
Trump could not care less about the bishops. He calls himself Presbyterian, but he is essentially agnostic.



Trump worships Mammon.

Trump worships himself. He tweeted about himself being the Second Coming of God to the Jewish people.... who absolutely do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08 ... -of-israel
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-twee ... in-israel/

It's no wonder some are beginning to think of him as the Anti-Christ.
Last edited by Katganistan on Fri May 22, 2020 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ethel mermania
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Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Fri May 22, 2020 5:10 pm

I dont think the president has the authority to "open" up the churches. That said, the states dont have the authority to shut them down either.
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