Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Lord Dominator]

Do you all consider islam a abrahamic faith or a cult that latched onto abrahamic style.

I can't say I see a meaningful difference between the two. Regardless of how they started they worship the God of Abraham.

Indeed - very different starts, but both ultimately hold themselves to roughly the same history and claim to be the true expression of the God of Abraham (as of course, does Judaism, for which we Christians would be similarly a weird cult offshoot).

[Luminesa]

I had a somewhat (controversial) question that I hesitated to ask for a few days because my intent isn't incendiary. Me and Sun had a conversation in the Feminist Discussion Thread about transgender people and the Roman Catholic Church, and how the RCC doesn't accept the identity of transgender people. My question is about someone who has already transitioned medically, legally, and/or surgically. If such a person were to convert to the RCC or Orthodox Church, what would their status be and what would the Church's opinion of what they should do be?

This is a purely speculative question, please don't interpret is as me being open to being convinced to detransition.

Ultimately the RCC process requires the Rite of Christian Initiation, or RCIA, in which you learn the tenets of the Catholic Faith. I think during that time you’d be able to bring-up your status to the priest and your RCIA director, possibly even the bishop if you can get a hold of them (since you DO generally meet with the bishop during the process). I’m not sure if the specific answer you would get-I’ve never been in that situation, nor have I met anyone who has been. Maybe Cekoviu, but the Orthodox Church functions differently. RCIA itself, however, really depends on the place from which a person is converting, and their specific needs and concerns.

Ultimately if you join the Church, you’re expected to partake in church activities. There’s really a place for everyone, whether you join a Rosary group or a charity group, or whether you decide to be just a general congregant who comes to Mass and who goes to Adoration. I’m not sure about things such as the Sacraments in this regard. However, Christ certainly does not hate you, and ultimately any person looking to convert to the Catholic Faith should ask Christ to lead them and to love them as they contemplate their conversion.

[Old Tyrannia]

But why are so many christians becoming atheists and why is christianity on the decline in places like europe. I mean the muslims seem far more devout and capable.

Im not shitting on christianity i like christianity in more than a few ways

It's not. Protestantism is in decline; Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the other older churches are growing.

Which is objectively a good thing.

This is patently untrue. The fastest growing form of Christianity globally is Evangelical Protestantism. And even if you were right, I don't see how that would be an "objectively" good thing.

If you were to go with Lutheranism (and are in the US) you'd want the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is not associated with the Evangelicals despite the name).

They seem kind of “leftist” idk something dosnt seem right

You are looking for a traditionalist/conservative religious group that is going to be okay with your non-traditional/conservative lifestyle. You're not going to find that.

[Lost Memories]

Im also gay and married so that brings up other issues

Well the Pope made waves on that issue recently. Give it time, I'd say.

Pope Francis' homosexuality comments heavily edited in documentary, Vatican has no comment on civil unions

Original 2019 interview of the pope with Valentina Alazraki - as published by vatican sources

If only people didn't find the need to lie to inject their political views into the church.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Do you all consider islam a abrahamic faith or a cult that latched onto abrahamic style.

More the latter, really.

Islam has next to nothing in common with Christianity and has only a small bit in common with Judaism. Though Muslims will claim their religion is legitimate, looking at it as an outsider with an interest in human history it seems more like Muhammad took the old Arabian paganism and reformed it by adopting traits from Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and to a lesser extent, Christianity. Mecca being a cultural center for Arabs, a hub of trade, and attractive to pagans, Jews, and Christians alike would have given him plenty of opportunity to observe these other religions enough to develop his own from them.

As Christian I of course don't accept Muhammad's words as being truthful at all. To me he is a false prophet, heretical preacher, and power-hungry warmonger. I see Islam as a corruption of traditional theology that started with Abraham to be combated. Not through violence, of course, but through theological debate. But I'll leave that to the expert theologians.

It's not. Protestantism is in decline; Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the other older churches are growing.

Which is objectively a good thing.

This is patently untrue. The fastest growing form of Christianity globally is Evangelical Protestantism. And even if you were right, I don't see how that would be an "objectively" good thing.

Simple: the Reformation was a mistake.

[Dogmeat]

Well the Pope made waves on that issue recently. Give it time, I'd say.

Pope Francis' homosexuality comments heavily edited in documentary, Vatican has no comment on civil unions

Original 2019 interview of the pope with Valentina Alazraki - as published by vatican sources

If only people didn't find the need to lie to inject their political views into the church.

If you didn't want your church to be political, you probably shouldn't have made it a State.

[Lost Memories]

It's not. Protestantism is in decline; Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the other older churches are growing.

Which is objectively a good thing.

This is patently untrue. The fastest growing form of Christianity globally is Evangelical Protestantism.

Protestantism has at least 2 main sub-divisions inside it:

-Historical Protestantism – 300–400 million adherents (in decline in the US)
the protestants continuing the legacy of the first reformers around 1500 (500 years ago)
biggest uniform group inside historical protestants: Anglicanism – 110 million

-Modern Protestantism – 400–500 million adherents (stable in the US)
denominations no older than 100 years, broadly linked to charismatics and pentecostals, together with anyone else who doesn't fit anywhere else, like non-denominationals
biggest uniform group inside modern protestants: Assemblies of God – 67 million
(a group of over 144 autonomous self-governing national groupings of churches) (origin 1914, World Assemblies of God Fellowship formally established 1988)

Evangelicalism is an umbrella term for various denominations, it mainly holds modern denominations in the present, plus sometimes Baptist churches, its origin is mentioned to be traced in 1738. (a grouping of evangelical denominations used by a survey, other definitions)

Only in the US, the statement of protestants being in decline is somehow true, while the catholics in US are slowly decreasing too but they're almost stable
https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in- ... apid-pace/


The main group of protestants growing is the modern ones, reportedly in Africa, Asia, and Latin America.
Modern protestants, who are no older than 100 years, and who knows if they will still be there in the next 100 years.

There is always a novelty effect with new movements, and interestingly, it's also mentioned in the acts of the apostles:

25 But one came and told them: Behold, the men whom you put in prison, are in the temple standing, and teaching the people.
26 Then went the officer with the ministers, and brought them without violence; for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned.
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 Saying: Commanding we commanded you, that you should not teach in this name; and behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and you have a mind to bring the blood of this man upon us.

29 But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers hath raised up Jesus, whom you put to death, hanging him upon a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand, to be Prince and Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things and the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to all that obey him.

33 When they had heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they thought to put them to death.
34 But one in the council rising up, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, respected by all the people, commanded the men to be put forth a little while.
35 And he said to them: Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do, as touching these men.
36 For before these days rose up Theodas, affirming himself to be somebody, to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all that believed him were scattered, and brought to nothing.
37 After this man, rose up Judas of Galilee, in the days of the enrolling, and drew away the people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as consented to him, were dispersed.
38 And now, therefore, I say to you, refrain from these men, and let them alone; for if this council or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God. And they consented to him.

Acts 5

[Old Tyrannia]

Do you all consider islam a abrahamic faith or a cult that latched onto abrahamic style.

More the latter, really.

Islam has next to nothing in common with Christianity and has only a small bit in common with Judaism. Though Muslims will claim their religion is legitimate, looking at it as an outsider with an interest in human history it seems more like Muhammad took the old Arabian paganism and reformed it by adopting traits from Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and to a lesser extent, Christianity. Mecca being a cultural center for Arabs, a hub of trade, and attractive to pagans, Jews, and Christians alike would have given him plenty of opportunity to observe these other religions enough to develop his own from them.

As Christian I of course don't accept Muhammad's words as being truthful at all. To me he is a false prophet, heretical preacher, and power-hungry warmonger. I see Islam as a corruption of traditional theology that started with Abraham to be combated. Not through violence, of course, but through theological debate. But I'll leave that to the expert theologians.

Islam has more in common with Judaism than either has with Christianity.

This is patently untrue. The fastest growing form of Christianity globally is Evangelical Protestantism. And even if you were right, I don't see how that would be an "objectively" good thing.

Simple: the Reformation was a mistake.

Your signature says that you are a "nondenominational" Christian. If you really believe what you've said here, then you should be a Roman Catholic. Additionally there is nothing objective about the statement "the Reformation was a mistake."

[Salus Maior]

Your signature says that you are a "nondenominational" Christian. If you really believe what you've said here, then you should be a Roman Catholic. Additionally there is nothing objective about the statement "the Reformation was a mistake."

Trollzyn doesn't consider himself Protestant...For some reason.

[The Archregimancy]

I love grand cathedrals my problem were the very obvious swindlers, i think religions should use traditional style

Have you considered Orthodoxy? You might find that your speed. I'd recommend talking to The Archregimancy about it. *Blows Conch Shell*

*appears in a puff of incense*

From the Orthodox perspective, the inner beauty of the church/cathedral is the whole point. I would argue that as a whole we've never really been as focused on the outer beauty of our church buildings as Catholics; even Hagia Sophia is far more impressive on the inside than the outside (though see the painted monasteries of Romania for a significant exception to this observation).

The use of gold and silver, of mosaics and marble, of incense is supposed to be a reflection - however pale and inadequate - of Heaven. Famously, when it came time for Kievan Rus to decide whether to convert to Christianity, Judaism, or Islam, Prince Vladimir rejected Islam because he didn't think Russians would forsake alcohol (seriously), felt that the loss of the Temple and Jerusalem proved that God had forsaken Judaism (just as well he wasn't looking to convert after 1948), but Orthodox Christianity.... As his ambassadors wrote:

And we went into the Greek lands, and we were led into a place where they serve their God [Hagia Sophia], and we did not know where we were, on heaven or on earth; and do not know how to tell about this. All we know is that God lives there with people and their service is better than in any other country. We cannot forget that beauty since each person, if he eats something sweet, will not take something bitter afterwards; so we cannot remain any more in paganism.

That the Byzantine Empire was then at the peak of its political power, and Vladimir's grandmother Olga was herself Christian, I'm sure had nothing to do with it.

But yes, the beauty of the church interior is the whole point. This can be a bit difficult to grasp in European countries where Orthodox churches are often in repurposed former Catholic or Protestant churches, or even just borrow a building from another denomination, but go to an Orthodox church in a traditionally Orthodox jurisdiction, and it becomes far more obvious. I think even the Catholics in this thread would concede that we give good liturgy. Actually, I suspect a lot of Catholics have been sneakily jealous of our vernacular language traditional liturgies since Vatican II.

On a weak day they sometimes even admit as much.

[Bienenhalde]

If you were to go with Lutheranism (and are in the US) you'd want the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, which is not associated with the Evangelicals despite the name).

They seem kind of “leftist” idk something dosnt seem right

Their are some leftist influences in the ELCA, but we have a broad range of theological and political viewpoints. I would say most ELCA congregations are fairly moderate.

[New Visayan Islands]

Actually, I suspect a lot of Catholics have been sneakily jealous of our vernacular language traditional liturgies since Vatican II.

On a weak day they sometimes even admit as much.

Can confirm, me being in Bohol means I have the perfect opportunity to witness the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, what with a church near my place doing this every Sunday at 12 noon. Might be DEFINITELY worth shelving my plan to hear anticipated Mass virtually later tonight my time.

[New Steuben]

They seem kind of “leftist” idk something dosnt seem right

Their are some leftist influences in the ELCA, but we have a broad range of theological and political viewpoints. I would say most ELCA congregations are fairly moderate.

Its just not a match

Again though i didnt come here to be converted per se

[Auze]

Do you all consider islam a abrahamic faith or a cult that latched onto abrahamic style.

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge of it, I'd consider it an Abrahamic faith.

[Merrill]

Do you all consider islam a abrahamic faith or a cult that latched onto abrahamic style.

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge of it, I'd consider it an Abrahamic faith.

To me, it is the embodiment of Satan's rejection of Agency. Here is the "Right Thing To Do", and we will compel you to Do It.

[Nihon no Tengoku]

- snip -

IMO the financial aspect was only one part that I found unstomachable but fair, it's pretty much a given that a non-institutionalized religion would have a hard time being predatory. So I'll concede to you on that.

I'd say that the rest of my criticisms (as normative as they are) still stand. And obviously - as a Christian - I'm also inclined to consider your faith to be false on theological grounds. However, that aside, my overall sentiment is that many people seek out alternative worship thinking that it'll somehow be superior to Christianity, or offer a superior spiritual experience or - in the case of my homeland - is more familiar / hearkens to tradition. I find all of these to be subjectively wrong.

Do you all consider islam a abrahamic faith or a cult that latched onto abrahamic style.

Well, that's a loaded question.

[Old Tyrannia]

From my (admittedly limited) knowledge of it, I'd consider it an Abrahamic faith.

To me, it is the embodiment of Satan's rejection of Agency. Here is the "Right Thing To Do", and we will compel you to Do It.

That sounds rather like Dostoevsky's critique of the Roman Catholic Church in "The Grand Inquisitor."

[Merrill]

To me, it is the embodiment of Satan's rejection of Agency. Here is the "Right Thing To Do", and we will compel you to Do It.

That sounds rather like Dostoevsky's critique of the Roman Catholic Church in "The Grand Inquisitor."

Sorry, haven't read that. I think the only time it would apply to RC, or any Christian denomination is if the Church was also the State. Islam explicitly does not separate them. My understanding of Scripture is that until Jesus reigns as King of Kings, the Laws of God and Man are not the same. Also, Scripture is adamant that Salvation comes by Choice. Only by understanding Good from Evil, and freely choosing the Good can we be blessed. Choices always have consequences, but any entity that seeks to force people to "Do the Right Thing" is in opposition to Heavenly Father's Plan.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Your signature says that you are a "nondenominational" Christian. If you really believe what you've said here, then you should be a Roman Catholic. Additionally there is nothing objective about the statement "the Reformation was a mistake."

Trollzyn doesn't consider himself Protestant...For some reason.

Because my nondenominational stance was born specifically out of a rejection of both Protestantism and Catholicism. I can't be a Protestant and reject Protestantism at the same time, and since my mother failed to raise me as a proper Catholic (mostly because she's barely Catholic herself), then what am I? I'm clearly not Protestant, and I'm clearly not Catholic, yet I don't belong to any specific church?

So, besides just "Christian", what do I call myself to designate the fact I follow Christ yet belong to no church?

[Auze]

That sounds rather like Dostoevsky's critique of the Roman Catholic Church in "The Grand Inquisitor."

Sorry, haven't read that. I think the only time it would apply to RC, or any Christian denomination is if the Church was also the State. Islam explicitly does not separate them. My understanding of Scripture is that until Jesus reigns as King of Kings, the Laws of God and Man are not the same. Also, Scripture is adamant that Salvation comes by Choice. Only by understanding Good from Evil, and freely choosing the Good can we be blessed. Choices always have consequences, but any entity that seeks to force people to "Do the Right Thing" is in opposition to Heavenly Father's Plan.

While I do agree with some of your points, a lack of complete separation between church and state does not mean that freedom of religion and other values can't be maintained. While a state that does not maintain those freedoms is in opposition, just because some Islamic states completely fail to do so does not mean that Islam as a whole is responsible, but rather radical elements that cause trouble as they would in any other religion. At least, that's my view on it.

[Nihon no Tengoku]

Trollzyn doesn't consider himself Protestant...For some reason.

Because my nondenominational stance was born specifically out of a rejection of both Protestantism and Catholicism. I can't be a Protestant and reject Protestantism at the same time, and since my mother failed to raise me as a proper Catholic (mostly because she's barely Catholic herself), then what am I? I'm clearly not Protestant, and I'm clearly not Catholic, yet I don't belong to any specific church?

So, besides just "Christian", what do I call myself to designate the fact I follow Christ yet belong to no church?

I personally feel like just 'Christian' would probably do. The apostles were against divisions in the church (rip lol) so my guess is that it'd probably be better to avoid as distinguishing yourself anymore than is necessary.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Because my nondenominational stance was born specifically out of a rejection of both Protestantism and Catholicism. I can't be a Protestant and reject Protestantism at the same time, and since my mother failed to raise me as a proper Catholic (mostly because she's barely Catholic herself), then what am I? I'm clearly not Protestant, and I'm clearly not Catholic, yet I don't belong to any specific church?

So, besides just "Christian", what do I call myself to designate the fact I follow Christ yet belong to no church?

I personally feel like just 'Christian' would probably do. The apostles were against divisions in the church (rip lol) so my guess is that it'd probably be better to avoid as distinguishing yourself anymore than is necessary.

Fair enough, I suppose.

I've come to the belief that, spiritually speaking, there is only one church that all practicing Christians belong to by default and no Earthly division can truly sunder it since it goes beyond materialism. But maybe that's just some weird 'Christian unity' fantasy I came up with, I dunno. I feel God shakes His head every time a new denomination springs up, asking Himself "What are you kids doing?"

[New Steuben]

- snip -

IMO the financial aspect was only one part that I found unstomachable but fair, it's pretty much a given that a non-institutionalized religion would have a hard time being predatory. So I'll concede to you on that.

I'd say that the rest of my criticisms (as normative as they are) still stand. And obviously - as a Christian - I'm also inclined to consider your faith to be false on theological grounds. However, that aside, my overall sentiment is that many people seek out alternative worship thinking that it'll somehow be superior to Christianity, or offer a superior spiritual experience or - in the case of my homeland - is more familiar / hearkens to tradition. I find all of these to be subjectively wrong.

Do you all consider islam a abrahamic faith or a cult that latched onto abrahamic style.

Well, that's a loaded question.

I can respect this

But what makes islam less than correct as oppossed to christianity? Why would you not just be a muslim?

[Nihon no Tengoku]

I personally feel like just 'Christian' would probably do. The apostles were against divisions in the church (rip lol) so my guess is that it'd probably be better to avoid as distinguishing yourself anymore than is necessary.

Fair enough, I suppose.

I've come to the belief that, spiritually speaking, there is only one church that all practicing Christians belong to by default and no Earthly division can truly sunder it since it goes beyond materialism. But maybe that's just some weird 'Christian unity' fantasy I came up with, I dunno. I feel God shakes His head every time a new denomination springs up, asking Himself "What are you kids doing?"

No, it's not some weird fantasy. I'd say that that's pretty much the ideal /universal church that is discussed in the Epistles.

[Old Tyrannia]

I personally feel like just 'Christian' would probably do. The apostles were against divisions in the church (rip lol) so my guess is that it'd probably be better to avoid as distinguishing yourself anymore than is necessary.

Fair enough, I suppose.

I've come to the belief that, spiritually speaking, there is only one church that all practicing Christians belong to by default and no Earthly division can truly sunder it since it goes beyond materialism. But maybe that's just some weird 'Christian unity' fantasy I came up with, I dunno. I feel God shakes His head every time a new denomination springs up, asking Himself "What are you kids doing?"

The idea that no particular church body can claim to be the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church, and that there is an invisible church formed of all believers that is distinct from visible church, is a fundamentally Protestant perspective. You are a Protestant in denial.