Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Lost Memories]

This is a month late (sorry, I forgot to post this here), but the Spanish National Court sentenced Col. Montano to 133 years for his massacres of 6 Jesuit priests in 1989.

For obvious reasons, he won't serve out his full sentence, but hey.

On one side, justice holds its value beside the punishment inflicted on the guilty, so it's good that case has been resolved.

On the other hand, by the looks of it, the judicial process seems to have taken decades to reach a conclusion.
Also seeing as the convicted colonel was already retired.
That's a shame. A late justice is little effective on the practical level.

[Diahon]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

[Punished UMN]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

1) We can't know that. and 2) Yes, it is right and proper to pray that all people, even the worst among us, come to repent of the evil they have done. That doesn't mean you have to like them though.

[Salus Maior]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

1) We can't know that. and 2) Yes, it is right and proper to pray that all people, even the worst among us, come to repent of the evil they have done. That doesn't mean you have to like them though.

^ As a Catholic, pretty much.

[The Archregimancy]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

1) Potentially.

2) Yes; as outlined by UMN above.

The technical term you're looking for is 'apocatastasis', or sometimes 'universal salvation', which has been a recurring - if not always uncontroversial - theme in Christian theology since at least the late second century. It tends to be more common and more developed as a consistent theological strand within Eastern Christianity, though it's by no means unknown in Western Christianity (though Calvinists are typically not keen, finding it to be the antithesis of predestination). I'll leave it to our Catholics and Protestants to discuss the latter in more detail rather than attempt to represent their views on their behalf.

[Old Tyrannia]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

1) Potentially.

2) Yes; as outlined by UMN above.

The technical term you're looking for is 'apocatstasis', or sometimes 'universal salvation', which has been a recurring - if not always uncontroversial - theme in Christian theology since at least the late second century. It tends to be more common and more developed as a consistent theological strand within Eastern Christianity, though it's by no means unknown in Western Christianity (though Calvinists are typically not keen, finding it to be the antithesis of predestination). I'll leave it to our Catholics and Protestants to discuss the latter in more detail rather than attempt to represent their views on their behalf.

Karl Barth, who whilst not necessarily popular with more conservative Reformed groups is nonetheless almost certainly the most influential Reformed theologian of the past two centuries, advocated for the possibility (although, importantly, not certainty) of universal salvation; so I wouldn't say that it's the antithesis of the Calvinist concept of predestination.

[Diahon]

gotta say as an aside that not seeing red over your name takes some getting used to

[Sundiata]

While I do love Our Lady, it is not in the sense of courtship. That said, the most beautiful women are certainly like Our Lady but they are ultimately not Our Lady.

[Sundiata]

I think that proper Catholic courtship is something of a dance. The atmosphere, the focus, the way you take someone's hand. Like each decade of the rosary, every person is in turn a mystery to be solved. To love as Christ loves the church is a deed worth daring. Its success is truly a divine proceeding: to be gently coaxed into the matrimonial sacrament.

Blessed are the married.

[The Archregimancy]

1) Potentially.

2) Yes; as outlined by UMN above.

The technical term you're looking for is 'apocatstasis', or sometimes 'universal salvation', which has been a recurring - if not always uncontroversial - theme in Christian theology since at least the late second century. It tends to be more common and more developed as a consistent theological strand within Eastern Christianity, though it's by no means unknown in Western Christianity (though Calvinists are typically not keen, finding it to be the antithesis of predestination). I'll leave it to our Catholics and Protestants to discuss the latter in more detail rather than attempt to represent their views on their behalf.

Karl Barth, who whilst not necessarily popular with more conservative Reformed groups is nonetheless almost certainly the most influential Reformed theologian of the past two centuries, advocated for the possibility (although, importantly, not certainty) of universal salvation; so I wouldn't say that it's the antithesis of the Calvinist concept of predestination.

Fair enough.

I do think most Calvinists find the theological concept basically incompatible with predestination, but clearly there are significant exceptions.

Perhaps we can reach middle ground here, with both of us adding a word to our posts. I change '(though Calvinists are typically not keen, finding it to be the antithesis of predestination)' to '(though Calvinists are typically not keen, usually finding it to be the antithesis of predestination)', and in return you can add one word to 'so I wouldn't say that it's the antithesis of the Calvinist concept of predestination' to make it 'so I wouldn't say that it's necessarily the antithesis of the Calvinist concept of predestination'.

[Lower Nubia]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

1. Saul (Paul) was a mass murderer (in a legal setting) and he is, of course, saved.

2. Yes. Again the aforementioned Saul’s transformation from executer to charitable giver Paul is something we should seek for anyone. Remember, salvation is about an individuals response to Christ, which requires repentance, among other things. I certainly hope we should desire, even in a secular sense, that murderers stop murdering. How much more so in a Christian setting?

[Lord Dominator]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

From Lutheran-land:

1. The important aspect in salvation here is that of repentance and the asking of forgiveness, which is available to all. In that sense, salvation is available for mass murders (though I would doubt that many of the kind you're thinking of would actually be able to do so).

2. Not praying for their salvation would be alright, provided you're not at the same hoping they don't repent at all in order to receive salvation.

[Auze]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

From the local Mormon:
1. Depends on what you mean by salvation, but in general yes. Whether many of them would accept certain forms of salvation is debatable.
2. As UMN stated, yes.

[Lost Memories]

Found this news:

Brazil: Pro-abortion religious association is prohibited by court from using "Catholics" in the name

By determination of the 2nd Chamber of Private Law of the Court of Justice of SP, the pro-abortion association "Catholics for the Right to Decide" will not be able to use "catholic" in the name. For the collegiate, the purpose of the association is incompatible with the values ​​adopted by the Catholic Church in general and universally.

The request was made by the Centro Dom Bosco Association of Faith and Culture, also Catholic. According to the organization, the group questioned intends to implement a progressive and anti-Catholic agenda, promoting the decriminalization and legalization of abortion.

He also affirmed that the use of the expression "catholic" is illegal and abusive in the specific case, constituting a real fraud, since under the pretext of defending the "reproductive rights of women", there is an authentic promotion of conduct that is nothing more than " homicide of babies in the mother's womb "out of step with Church doctrine.

Therefore, it requested reform of the 1st degree decision to impose the defendant to refrain from using the expression "catholic".

For the rapporteur, the preservation of such a name translates into "undeniable disservice to society".

"Freedom of expression will not be harmed in the least (that is not what we are talking about), and the requested association may defend its values ​​and ideas (including abortion) as it sees fit, as long as it uses a coherent name, without presenting itself to society with name of another institution that publicly adopts and notoriously flagrantly opposed values, not forgetting the fact that the holder of a right who, when exercising it, clearly exceeds the limits imposed by its economic or social purpose, for good -fe or good morals (Article 187 of the Civil Code ). "

The judge stressed that the association has the full right to say what it wants and to express its thoughts freely, but not with the name of the Church and to convey thought notoriously contrary to the doctrine.

Source (portuguese)
Google translation

It doesn't really change much on the real issue, but it's a good step against deceptive practices and misinformation regarding christian values.

[Lower Nubia]

Found this news:

Brazil: Pro-abortion religious association is prohibited by court from using "Catholics" in the name

By determination of the 2nd Chamber of Private Law of the Court of Justice of SP, the pro-abortion association "Catholics for the Right to Decide" will not be able to use "catholic" in the name. For the collegiate, the purpose of the association is incompatible with the values ​​adopted by the Catholic Church in general and universally.

The request was made by the Centro Dom Bosco Association of Faith and Culture, also Catholic. According to the organization, the group questioned intends to implement a progressive and anti-Catholic agenda, promoting the decriminalization and legalization of abortion.

He also affirmed that the use of the expression "catholic" is illegal and abusive in the specific case, constituting a real fraud, since under the pretext of defending the "reproductive rights of women", there is an authentic promotion of conduct that is nothing more than " homicide of babies in the mother's womb "out of step with Church doctrine.

Therefore, it requested reform of the 1st degree decision to impose the defendant to refrain from using the expression "catholic".

For the rapporteur, the preservation of such a name translates into "undeniable disservice to society".

"Freedom of expression will not be harmed in the least (that is not what we are talking about), and the requested association may defend its values ​​and ideas (including abortion) as it sees fit, as long as it uses a coherent name, without presenting itself to society with name of another institution that publicly adopts and notoriously flagrantly opposed values, not forgetting the fact that the holder of a right who, when exercising it, clearly exceeds the limits imposed by its economic or social purpose, for good -fe or good morals (Article 187 of the Civil Code ). "

The judge stressed that the association has the full right to say what it wants and to express its thoughts freely, but not with the name of the Church and to convey thought notoriously contrary to the doctrine.

Source (portuguese)
Google translation

It doesn't really change much on the real issue, but it's a good step against deceptive practices and misinformation regarding christian values.

Good. I hate when words can be applied to situations that they are logically unable to be part of.

[Kowani]

Questions for the practicing Christians here, as I grew up within a deeply Catholic milieu but no longer am Catholic myself and so am no longer as cognizant of at least Catholic dictates on these below:

1. Is there salvation even for mass murderers?

2. Is it right and proper to pray for the salvation of those mass murderers?

1. Saul (Paul) was a mass murderer (in a legal setting) and he is, of course, saved.

2. Yes. Again the aforementioned Saul’s transformation from executer to charitable giver Paul is something we should seek for anyone. Remember, salvation is about an individuals response to Christ, which requires repentance, among other things. I certainly hope we should desire, even in a secular sense, that murderers stop murdering. How much more so in a Christian setting?

I'm sorry, I've never heard this before-how was Paul a mass murderer?

[Punished UMN]

1. Saul (Paul) was a mass murderer (in a legal setting) and he is, of course, saved.

2. Yes. Again the aforementioned Saul’s transformation from executer to charitable giver Paul is something we should seek for anyone. Remember, salvation is about an individuals response to Christ, which requires repentance, among other things. I certainly hope we should desire, even in a secular sense, that murderers stop murdering. How much more so in a Christian setting?

I'm sorry, I've never heard this before-how was Paul a mass murderer?

Paul self-admits that he was responsible for the executions of many Christians prior to his conversion.

[Lower Nubia]

1. Saul (Paul) was a mass murderer (in a legal setting) and he is, of course, saved.

2. Yes. Again the aforementioned Saul’s transformation from executer to charitable giver Paul is something we should seek for anyone. Remember, salvation is about an individuals response to Christ, which requires repentance, among other things. I certainly hope we should desire, even in a secular sense, that murderers stop murdering. How much more so in a Christian setting?

I'm sorry, I've never heard this before-how was Paul a mass murderer?

In the technical sense he was not a murderer because it was “state” sanctioned. Though this is a little hair splitting and he did kill many people unjustly.

[Sanghyeok]

Question for my Christian friends here (sorry if I posted in the wrong place):

What political philosophy would you argue Jesus would be if he was in modern times? And does this influence who you vote for/support in elections, or your own political philsophy?

[Auze]

Question for my Christian friends here (sorry if I posted in the wrong place):

What political philosophy would you argue Jesus would be if he was in modern times? And does this influence who you vote for/support in elections, or your own political philsophy?

I doubt he would be particularly supportive of any political philosophy/politician.

[Aeritai]

Question for my Christian friends here (sorry if I posted in the wrong place):

What political philosophy would you argue Jesus would be if he was in modern times? And does this influence who you vote for/support in elections, or your own political philsophy?

I don't think He would care about our politics... Though I might be wrong on that.

[Geneviev]

Question for my Christian friends here (sorry if I posted in the wrong place):

What political philosophy would you argue Jesus would be if he was in modern times? And does this influence who you vote for/support in elections, or your own political philsophy?

He might be against certain political philosophies, but I can't know what God thinks.

[Punished UMN]

Question for my Christian friends here (sorry if I posted in the wrong place):

What political philosophy would you argue Jesus would be if he was in modern times? And does this influence who you vote for/support in elections, or your own political philsophy?

Christ's programme transcends existence and therefore politics.

[Lord Dominator]

Question for my Christian friends here (sorry if I posted in the wrong place):

What political philosophy would you argue Jesus would be if he was in modern times? And does this influence who you vote for/support in elections, or your own political philsophy?

I would think that trying to figure out what political philosophy Jesus would hold to in the 21st century based on what he said in the 1st century Israel may present some problems

[Kowani]

I'm sorry, I've never heard this before-how was Paul a mass murderer?

In the technical sense he was not a murderer because it was “state” sanctioned. Though this is a little hair splitting and he did kill many people unjustly.

I'm sorry, I've never heard this before-how was Paul a mass murderer?

Paul self-admits that he was responsible for the executions of many Christians prior to his conversion.

Ahhhh, I see.
Thanks!