Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[The Archregimancy]

There's a theory out there that states that Judaism, up until Second Temple Period (the time of Jesus), would worship multiple gods. What do you guys, as Christians, make of that theory?

The Old Testament is extremely upfront about the fact that the worship of false deities was a persistent problem in pre-exile Israel.

See, inter alia:

Judges 2:11-13

Judges 3:7

Judges 6:25-30

Judges 8:33

Judges 10:6-10

So the children of Israel seem to spend a considerable amount of time forsaking the Lord their God for Baal[im]; nor does the problem stop in Judges (see 1 Samuel 12:10, 1 Kings 16:31-32, etc., etc., etc.).

YHWH may have been a bit vengeful at the time, but fortunately he also seems to have been fairly forgiving once the children of Israel stopped displeasing Him.

[Australian rePublic]

The Old Testament is extremely upfront about the fact that the worship of false deities was a persistent problem in pre-exile Israel.

See, inter alia:

Judges 2:11-13

Judges 3:7

Judges 6:25-30

Judges 8:33

Judges 10:6-10

So the children of Israel seem to spend a considerable amount of time forsaking the Lord their God for Baal[im]; nor does the problem stop in Judges (see 1 Samuel 12:10, 1 Kings 16:31-32, etc., etc., etc.).

YHWH may have been a bit vengeful at the time, but fortunately he also seems to have been fairly forgiving once the children of Israel stopped displeasing Him.

Ah yes, fair enough. But what do you make of the instances where it calls them "foreign gods". Did foreigners used to worship them? Kind of makes you wonder why God didn't correct those foreigners so that they also may worship Him

[Auze]

See, inter alia:

Judges 2:11-13

Judges 3:7

Judges 6:25-30

Judges 8:33

Judges 10:6-10

So the children of Israel seem to spend a considerable amount of time forsaking the Lord their God for Baal[im]; nor does the problem stop in Judges (see 1 Samuel 12:10, 1 Kings 16:31-32, etc., etc., etc.).

YHWH may have been a bit vengeful at the time, but fortunately he also seems to have been fairly forgiving once the children of Israel stopped displeasing Him.

Ah yes, fair enough. But what do you make of the instances where it calls them "foreign gods". Did foreigners used to worship them? Kind of makes you wonder why God didn't correct those foreigners so that they also may worship Him

Different groups of the early Semitics in the Levant worshiped different gods, IIRC
Here a list (El is the name the Hebrews gave when they finally came around to worshiping just one god).

[The Archregimancy]

See, inter alia:

Judges 2:11-13

Judges 3:7

Judges 6:25-30

Judges 8:33

Judges 10:6-10

So the children of Israel seem to spend a considerable amount of time forsaking the Lord their God for Baal[im]; nor does the problem stop in Judges (see 1 Samuel 12:10, 1 Kings 16:31-32, etc., etc., etc.).

YHWH may have been a bit vengeful at the time, but fortunately he also seems to have been fairly forgiving once the children of Israel stopped displeasing Him.

Ah yes, fair enough. But what do you make of the instances where it calls them "foreign gods". Did foreigners used to worship them? Kind of makes you wonder why God didn't correct those foreigners so that they also may worship Him

It's an core belief to both Judaism and Christianity that the Jews of the Old Testament were God's chosen people in a special covenant with God. This does not mean that Jews were inherently superior, or that God could only interact with Jews, but it does mean that the relationship between God and the Jews in the Old Testament was uniquely close.

And if you're a Christian, God patently did in good time go out of his way to 'correct those foreigners so that they also may worship Him' - replacing the old covenant of the Old Testament with a new covenant.

This is fairly basic theology.

Here's a brief summary of the Orthodox version.

[Lower Nubia]

So I’m reading the ecumenical document between the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church, the report is very interesting concerning the alignment of practice between the two Churches. What are the Anglican/Methodist thoughts on the matter, especially for the acceptance of the historic episcopate for Methodists to commune with Anglicans?

Well, Methodists used to be Anglicans, and they're really not that different in the modern day, so why not?

They’re very similar in the pews but beyond that the similarities become more divergent the farther up the hierarchy.

It also is a conversation similar to what St Cyprian had concerning the validity of sacraments.

[Salus Maior]

Well, Methodists used to be Anglicans, and they're really not that different in the modern day, so why not?

They’re very similar in the pews but beyond that the similarities become more divergent the farther up the hierarchy.

It also is a conversation similar to what St Cyprian had concerning the validity of sacraments.

I think the question of valid sacraments and Protestant sects is well past.

But I'm just a Catholic so what do I know.

[New Visayan Islands]

They’re very similar in the pews but beyond that the similarities become more divergent the farther up the hierarchy.

It also is a conversation similar to what St Cyprian had concerning the validity of sacraments.

I think the question of valid sacraments and Protestant sects is well past.

But I'm just a Catholic so what do I know.

Just excitement for tomorrow my time as far as I'm concerned.

What? Third Sunday of January is the day we venerate the Christ Child in these here Philippine Islands.

¡Viva Pit Señor!

[Tarsonis]

Anybody going to March for life? Sadly I can't afford to attend this year.

[Salus Maior]

Anybody going to March for life? Sadly I can't afford to attend this year.

I was hoping my college would do something with it, but apparently they don't participate in strictly political events as a policy.

Which is kind of bs considering how political it can get here.

[Tarsonis]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

[United Muscovite Nations]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

Yeah, I think it will hurt the movement in the long run.

[Auze]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a worse living American Politician to speak right now.

[Lord Dominator]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a worse living American Politician to speak right now.

I suspect a few of the dead ones would be more compelling

[Hakons]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

Trump has done a bunch for the pro-life movement, but he is a polarizing figure.

[Sundiata]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

Trump has done a bunch for the pro-life movement, but he is a polarizing figure.

I think the country would be better off if the Democrats were a Pro-Life party.

[Lower Nubia]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

Yeah, I think it will hurt the movement in the long run.

Agreed. Heck, even in the short term.

[Lord Dominator]

Trump has done a bunch for the pro-life movement, but he is a polarizing figure.

I think the country would be better off if the Democrats were a Pro-Life party.

I rather doubt that's going to happen anytime soon

[Diopolis]

So Trump is speaking at the MFL. Its great that a sitting president is addressing the protest giving it undeniable visibility, but Lord I wish it was someone else.

Yeah, I think it will hurt the movement in the long run.

Eh, I’m not sure it can be polarized more than it is.

[Lost Memories]

Four aid workers from a French Christian charity have gone missing in Iraq, with authorities from both countries investigating their disappearance, the organisation said.

SOS Chretiens d'Orient (Christians of the Middle East) said the three French nationals and one Iraqi were last seen in Baghdad on Monday.
The charity said there had been no ransom demands.
Their disappearance comes at a time of heightened tensions in the country.
A top Iranian general and Iraqi militia commander were killed in Baghdad earlier this month in a US drone strike. Lawmakers and protesters have responded by calling for foreign troops to leave.

SOS Chretiens d'Orient said its four employees were primarily in Baghdad to complete "administrative formalities", such as renewing their visas and registering the organisation with authorities.
The charity described the four as "experienced employees, in good health and with perfect knowledge of crisis zones". Their identities have not been disclosed.

SOS Chretiens d'Orient says it seeks to help Christians in the Middle East and has been working in Iraq since 2014.
An official at the French Foreign Ministry told Reuters news agency it was aware of the situation and was trying to secure more information.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51242973

There are some turns this can be looked at:
-Were they purposely abducted, or were they victims of the current popular turmoil, caused by the American attack little time ago?
(the rage for americans can easily translate for every westerner, as, looks first, questions later, if they get caught up in a turmoil)
-Can this be counted as persecution? Assuming they were hit specifically as christian charity, christian before charity. If not, what is this?
-What do you think about christian charities? How different are they from 'official' missionary work? Or how different are they from other charities?

[The Archregimancy]

Four aid workers from a French Christian charity have gone missing in Iraq, with authorities from both countries investigating their disappearance, the organisation said.

SOS Chretiens d'Orient (Christians of the Middle East) said the three French nationals and one Iraqi were last seen in Baghdad on Monday.
The charity said there had been no ransom demands.
Their disappearance comes at a time of heightened tensions in the country.
A top Iranian general and Iraqi militia commander were killed in Baghdad earlier this month in a US drone strike. Lawmakers and protesters have responded by calling for foreign troops to leave.

SOS Chretiens d'Orient said its four employees were primarily in Baghdad to complete "administrative formalities", such as renewing their visas and registering the organisation with authorities.
The charity described the four as "experienced employees, in good health and with perfect knowledge of crisis zones". Their identities have not been disclosed.

SOS Chretiens d'Orient says it seeks to help Christians in the Middle East and has been working in Iraq since 2014.
An official at the French Foreign Ministry told Reuters news agency it was aware of the situation and was trying to secure more information.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51242973

There are some turns this can be looked at:
-Were they purposely abducted, or were they victims of the current popular turmoil, caused by the American attack little time ago?
(the rage for americans can easily translate for every westerner, as, looks first, questions later, if they get caught up in a turmoil)
-Can this be counted as persecution? Assuming they were hit specifically as christian charity, christian before charity. If not, what is this?
-What do you think about christian charities? How different are they from 'official' missionary work? Or how different are they from other charities?

I hadn't heard of SOS Chrétiens d'Orient

So I went to find their website: https://soschretiensdorient.fr/index.php/fr/

For those of you who don't read French, there's an English version as well, though bits of it look like they've gone through Google Translate: https://soschretiensdorient.fr/index.php/en/

What I'm trying to find out is whether they're an entirely apolitical NGO and charity that seeks to offer support for persecuted Christian groups in the Middle East, in which case they're foolhardy yet praiseworthy, or whether they're A) missionaries or B) are pushing a political agenda - in which case they're simply foolhardy to the point of idiocy.

They claim to be apolitical and non-denominational, supporting both Orthodox and Catholic Christians in the region. But there are also odd bits suggesting that they believe that France has a special role to play in supporting Middle Eastern Christians; which strikes me as just a bit old-fashioned and neo-colonial.

In their bit about Egypt, they claim that since the 2011 revolution, Copts have endured an unprecedented cycle of 'violence and horror'. This does not match my own experience of Christians in Egypt (remembering that I currently live in Cairo). In my experience Copts are often discriminated against, but are not actively persecuted. That said, they mention northern Sinai a lot; the security situation there is much less stable.

So I'm not quite sure what to think.

Does anyone know more about them?

[Nakena]

They claim to be apolitical and non-denominational, supporting both Orthodox and Catholic Christians in the region. But there are also odd bits suggesting that they believe that France has a special role to play in supporting Middle Eastern Christians; which strikes me as just a bit old-fashioned and neo-colonial.

Perhaps they have or had once a lebanon/syria focus. After all those were francophone countries back in the day.

[Diopolis]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51242973

There are some turns this can be looked at:
-Were they purposely abducted, or were they victims of the current popular turmoil, caused by the American attack little time ago?
(the rage for americans can easily translate for every westerner, as, looks first, questions later, if they get caught up in a turmoil)
-Can this be counted as persecution? Assuming they were hit specifically as christian charity, christian before charity. If not, what is this?
-What do you think about christian charities? How different are they from 'official' missionary work? Or how different are they from other charities?

I hadn't heard of SOS Chrétiens d'Orient

So I went to find their website: https://soschretiensdorient.fr/index.php/fr/

For those of you who don't read French, there's an English version as well, though bits of it look like they've gone through Google Translate: https://soschretiensdorient.fr/index.php/en/

What I'm trying to find out is whether they're an entirely apolitical NGO and charity that seeks to offer support for persecuted Christian groups in the Middle East, in which case they're foolhardy yet praiseworthy, or whether they're A) missionaries or B) are pushing a political agenda - in which case they're simply foolhardy to the point of idiocy.

They claim to be apolitical and non-denominational, supporting both Orthodox and Catholic Christians in the region. But there are also odd bits suggesting that they believe that France has a special role to play in supporting Middle Eastern Christians; which strikes me as just a bit old-fashioned and neo-colonial.

In their bit about Egypt, they claim that since the 2011 revolution, Copts have endured an unprecedented cycle of 'violence and horror'. This does not match my own experience of Christians in Egypt (remembering that I currently live in Cairo). In my experience Copts are often discriminated against, but are not actively persecuted. That said, they mention northern Sinai a lot; the security situation there is much less stable.

So I'm not quite sure what to think.

Does anyone know more about them?

I can passively read French, albeit it doesn't come naturally to me(it's about like trying to read Shakespeare with no glossary), and I am involved in Traditional Catholic circles that occasionally brush the francophone Christian world. My impression is that Chretiens d'orient isn't totally(or at all) apolitical, but doesn't put a whole lot of effort into spreading their politics, but that they're not personally very religious.
That being said, I haven't dealt with them much. I understood them up til now as being someone vaguely on the right of the French culture wars, such as they were, and not particularly interested in doing much preaching. I'd also been of the impression they did more fundraising than actual on the ground intervention, and even if they're political in France that doesn't make them political in Iraq.

[Lost Memories]

Thanks for looking them up, this looks even more complex than it seemed at first.

[The Archregimancy]

I hadn't heard of SOS Chrétiens d'Orient

So I went to find their website: https://soschretiensdorient.fr/index.php/fr/

For those of you who don't read French, there's an English version as well, though bits of it look like they've gone through Google Translate: https://soschretiensdorient.fr/index.php/en/

What I'm trying to find out is whether they're an entirely apolitical NGO and charity that seeks to offer support for persecuted Christian groups in the Middle East, in which case they're foolhardy yet praiseworthy, or whether they're A) missionaries or B) are pushing a political agenda - in which case they're simply foolhardy to the point of idiocy.

They claim to be apolitical and non-denominational, supporting both Orthodox and Catholic Christians in the region. But there are also odd bits suggesting that they believe that France has a special role to play in supporting Middle Eastern Christians; which strikes me as just a bit old-fashioned and neo-colonial.

In their bit about Egypt, they claim that since the 2011 revolution, Copts have endured an unprecedented cycle of 'violence and horror'. This does not match my own experience of Christians in Egypt (remembering that I currently live in Cairo). In my experience Copts are often discriminated against, but are not actively persecuted. That said, they mention northern Sinai a lot; the security situation there is much less stable.

So I'm not quite sure what to think.

Does anyone know more about them?

I can passively read French, albeit it doesn't come naturally to me(it's about like trying to read Shakespeare with no glossary), and I am involved in Traditional Catholic circles that occasionally brush the francophone Christian world. My impression is that Chretiens d'orient isn't totally(or at all) apolitical, but doesn't put a whole lot of effort into spreading their politics, but that they're not personally very religious.
That being said, I haven't dealt with them much. I understood them up til now as being someone vaguely on the right of the French culture wars, such as they were, and not particularly interested in doing much preaching. I'd also been of the impression they did more fundraising than actual on the ground intervention, and even if they're political in France that doesn't make them political in Iraq.

I grew up in southern Belgium, so my French is fine.

Your statement 'I understood them up til now as being someone vaguely on the right of the French culture wars, such as they were' matches my reading of the website.

Which isn't by itself a criticism, I stress; just an observation. And it certainly isn't a judgement on the rights and wrongs of the worrying disappearance of several of their workers.

[Australian rePublic]

After hearing about the millions of suicides and countless number of people suffering, it really raises the question- is God too busy to handle everything? I mean think about, God has to simultaneously oversee hundreds trillions of people in the past, present and future. Right now, as you read this, he's seeing over people of the past, people of the present, and people who don't even exist yet and will exist long after we're gone. Do you think he's too busy?