Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

But really, I'm very excited to have a Catholic president again. It's been a long time since John F. Kennedy and we've got a lot riding on this.

Uh why? Biden supports many things currently condemned by the Catholic Church, namely abortion and same sex marriage. I believe there was even talk by the former Archbishop of Philadelphia arguing that Catholic priests should refuse him communion while he held these stances earlier in the election.

Tbf it is possible to be a Catholic and a progressive, even if it means you create enemies.

Not that I think Biden is this uber leftist but being pro choice and pro same sex marriage in your late seventies is based.

[Jedi Council]

Uh why? Biden supports many things currently condemned by the Catholic Church, namely abortion and same sex marriage. I believe there was even talk by the former Archbishop of Philadelphia arguing that Catholic priests should refuse him communion while he held these stances earlier in the election.

Tbf it is possible to be a Catholic and a progressive, even if it means you create enemies.

Correct, but from what I know of Sun, he is relatively stringent when it comes to following Church teachings.

[Washington Resistance Army]

To add, Jesus was not Jewish in the sense of not renewing the Old Covenant.

Jesus was Jewish in the sense that he fulfilled the Old Covenant and practiced its customs. Important thing to distinguish, especially in relation to the modern sense of what it means to be Christian or Jewish.

I am explicitly making clear that he is the Messiah.

To play devils advocate cuz I enjoy these debates a lot, Jesus can't be the Messiah because he isn't patrilineally descended from David and didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

[Saint Yosx]

But really, I'm very excited to have a Catholic president again. It's been a long time since John F. Kennedy and we've got a lot riding on this.

Uh why? Biden supports many things currently condemned by the Catholic Church, namely abortion and same sex marriage. I believe there was even talk by the former Archbishop of Philadelphia arguing that Catholic priests should refuse him communion while he held these stances earlier in the election.

Well I’m no catholic myself but my stance on Same Sex marriage is very hands off approach. I think that Same sex marriage is a sin, however I don’t think the government should do anything to prevent it or illegalize it. Whether you marry someone of the smart gender is between you and god. Sure I can give my honest opinion but I can’t change you. Abortion is a very alike stance, it should be illegal in every way expect when the mother’s life is in danger. I do think to avoid this whole dilemma of abortion, Sex education should be taught as well as a government healthcare system which would be able to avoid abortions completely.

[Loben III]

But really, I'm very excited to have a Catholic president again. It's been a long time since John F. Kennedy and we've got a lot riding on this.

Uh why? Biden supports many things currently condemned by the Catholic Church, namely abortion and same sex marriage. I believe there was even talk by the former Archbishop of Philadelphia arguing that Catholic priests should refuse him communion while he held these stances earlier in the election.

Well he’s an catholic in name only so none of that surprises me.

[Salus Maior]

Uh why? Biden supports many things currently condemned by the Catholic Church, namely abortion and same sex marriage. I believe there was even talk by the former Archbishop of Philadelphia arguing that Catholic priests should refuse him communion while he held these stances earlier in the election.

Tbf it is possible to be a Catholic and a progressive, even if it means you create enemies.

Not that I think Biden is this uber leftist but being pro choice and pro same sex marriage in your late seventies is based.

It's less based and more politically convenient.

[Salus Maior]

To add, Jesus was not Jewish in the sense of not renewing the Old Covenant.

Jesus was Jewish in the sense that he fulfilled the Old Covenant and practiced its customs. Important thing to distinguish, especially in relation to the modern sense of what it means to be Christian or Jewish.

I am explicitly making clear that he is the Messiah.

To play devils advocate cuz I enjoy these debates a lot, Jesus can't be the Messiah because he isn't patrilineally descended from David and didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

Well, as Jesus pointed out, God can produce descendants of Abraham from rocks, so I don't see why He can't make a Son of David from Mary.

Not to mention that God the Father is both the Father, as it were, of both Jesus and David.

[Jedi Council]

Tbf it is possible to be a Catholic and a progressive, even if it means you create enemies.

Not that I think Biden is this uber leftist but being pro choice and pro same sex marriage in your late seventies is based.

It's less based and more politically convenient.

Or perhaps he just had a basic understanding of human decency

[The Marlborough]

To play devils advocate cuz I enjoy these debates a lot, Jesus can't be the Messiah because he isn't patrilineally descended from David and didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

Well, as Jesus pointed out, God can produce descendants of Abraham from rocks, so I don't see why He can't make a Son of David from Mary.

Not to mention that God the Father is both the Father, as it were, of both Jesus and David.

Also the rest of society considered him to be the son of Joseph and that he was accepted as such "Isn't this the carpenter's son?" etc.

[Washington Resistance Army]

To play devils advocate cuz I enjoy these debates a lot, Jesus can't be the Messiah because he isn't patrilineally descended from David and didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

Well, as Jesus pointed out, God can produce descendants of Abraham from rocks, so I don't see why He can't make a Son of David from Mary.

Not to mention that God the Father is both the Father, as it were, of both Jesus and David.

Which is a perfectly valid point and can explain away that particular point (though I am aware of some Jewish arguments against it I'm not well versed enough in them to properly make them) but there's still a great many other problems with Jesus being the Messiah. The entire concept of the New Covenant for example, there's dozens of times where the law is said to be eternal and unchanging for all of time and attempts to change that is the mark of a false prophet. Second Coming doctrine also has no basis in the Torah if I'm not mistaken and is a pretty implicit admission that Jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

[Lost Memories]

Thinking again about the concept of separation of Church and State (= separation of political authority and religious authority, that is, separation between the role of politician and priest)

I'm thinking that the concept should be extended, to:
separation of Church and State and Market

As the sensitive roles in society aren't only the politician and the priest, but also the merchant

So as to avoid distortions in those roles, and by relation, distortions inside society:
A politician shouldn't also be a priest or merchant, or otherwise indirectly obtain or control their role
A priest, shouldn't also be a politician nor merchant, directly or indirectly
A merchant, shouldn't also be a politician or priest, directly or indirectly

Because when a politician, or political power, follows their self-interest, they could try to redirect the religious authority or the economic power, to better serve their personal interests
when a priest follows their self-interest, they could try to redirect the political power or the economic power to better serve their personal interests
when a merchant follows their personal interests, they could try to redirect the political power or the religious authority to better serve their personal interests

Anytime the political power, the religious authority, the economic power, don't work for their main role but for something else, they perform poorly in their own field
A politician which doesn't work for the population, a priest who doesn't work for their community, a merchant which fails to run their business

Arguably, while with a politician and priest it can be assumed they "can" be able to serve the general and public interest, so their personal interests while in the role can be discouraged and penalized, because there is an alternative, them using their role for serving the public interest
While a merchant always follows their personal interest, so the distinction between a merchant which abuses their role and distorts or corrupts the other two roles, the distinction may be into the fairness of the merchant.
A fair merchant follows their personal interests within the societal rules and with respect to their fellow citizens, clients or competitors or bystanders.
An unfair merchant will try to use any means to get an unfair advantage, which includes corrupting the political power and the religious authority.

[Lost Memories]

It's quite easy to see how the social order and the social powers in USA are messed up. And also in other western nations, but probably it's partly true about everywhere.

Politicians doing whatever, playing the cult leader of their ideology for extra votes, and/or using their political position for personal interests, or for particular economic interests, in exchange of favors and trinkets.
Priests doing whatever, it's mainly visible from the evangelicals but not only, a priest is also anyone leading any nameless religion of the cult of egoism. Priests getting political or into politics, or cults becoming groups of economic interest, for personal renown.
Merchants doing whatever, but that's less surprising, it has always happened since before republics and democracies were set in place few centuries ago (democracies in the modern sense, which is basically "democratically elected oligachy"). Merchants "investing" in the political sector and into religious authorities, for economic returns and/or for competitive advantage.

All done with the same music of information manipulation and propaganda. And with some time consuming distraction on the side.

[Punished UMN]

Well, as Jesus pointed out, God can produce descendants of Abraham from rocks, so I don't see why He can't make a Son of David from Mary.

Not to mention that God the Father is both the Father, as it were, of both Jesus and David.

Which is a perfectly valid point and can explain away that particular point (though I am aware of some Jewish arguments against it I'm not well versed enough in them to properly make them) but there's still a great many other problems with Jesus being the Messiah. The entire concept of the New Covenant for example, there's dozens of times where the law is said to be eternal and unchanging for all of time and attempts to change that is the mark of a false prophet. Second Coming doctrine also has no basis in the Torah if I'm not mistaken and is a pretty implicit admission that Jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

It's not like Messianism was a concrete doctrine in Judaism at the time of Christ's death, and many of the Messianic prophecies that Jews now accept were developed for the purpose of invalidating Christ as a Messiah. Modern Judaism, like Christianity, evolved from ancient Judaism, but neither are direct continuations.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Which is a perfectly valid point and can explain away that particular point (though I am aware of some Jewish arguments against it I'm not well versed enough in them to properly make them) but there's still a great many other problems with Jesus being the Messiah. The entire concept of the New Covenant for example, there's dozens of times where the law is said to be eternal and unchanging for all of time and attempts to change that is the mark of a false prophet. Second Coming doctrine also has no basis in the Torah if I'm not mistaken and is a pretty implicit admission that Jesus failed to fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

It's not like Messianism was a concrete doctrine in Judaism at the time of Christ's death, and many of the Messianic prophecies that Jews now accept were developed for the purpose of invalidating Christ as a Messiah. Modern Judaism, like Christianity, evolved from ancient Judaism, but neither are direct continuations.

Afaik the most basic bits of Messianic doctrine (Davidic bloodline, return the Jews to Israel, etc) existed BCE. Whilst it certainly did see further expansion in the centuries after Christs death there is good reason most Jews even of his time rejected him.

Of course we all know Judaism is wrong and Samaritanism is the true original Abrahamic faith

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

With my mom working at home pretty much 24/7 now I've been unable to consume any kind of pornography and that's giving me time to really think about giving it up completely. I'd like to, I (kinda) want to, and I think that's the morally correct thing to do and yet... it's easier said than done. Even involuntary abstinence from porn hasn't completely erased the allure it holds over me. But I think I do want to give it up and I think it's absolutely necessary that I do so. Lust, after all, is a sin and there's really nothing more lustful than porn. And, frankly, it's just starting to lose it's appeal to me in general. All kinds of moral and legal problems in the porn industry that I really don't want to enable. All that exploitation and what not. My porn consumption has never been an obsession, compulsion, or even an addiction but it's still a bit of a habit and one I'd like to kick.

Wish me luck.

[Punished UMN]

It's not like Messianism was a concrete doctrine in Judaism at the time of Christ's death, and many of the Messianic prophecies that Jews now accept were developed for the purpose of invalidating Christ as a Messiah. Modern Judaism, like Christianity, evolved from ancient Judaism, but neither are direct continuations.

Afaik the most basic bits of Messianic doctrine (Davidic bloodline, return the Jews to Israel, etc) existed BCE. Whilst it certainly did see further expansion in the centuries after Christs death there is good reason most Jews even of his time rejected him.

Of course we all know Judaism is wrong and Samaritanism is the true original Abrahamic faith

Messianism existed, but that doesn't mean it was a mainstream doctrine of Second Temple Judaism.

[Sundiata]

With my mom working at home pretty much 24/7 now I've been unable to consume any kind of pornography and that's giving me time to really think about giving it up completely. I'd like to, I (kinda) want to, and I think that's the morally correct thing to do and yet... it's easier said than done. Even involuntary abstinence from porn hasn't completely erased the allure it holds over me. But I think I do want to give it up and I think it's absolutely necessary that I do so. Lust, after all, is a sin and there's really nothing more lustful than porn. And, frankly, it's just starting to lose it's appeal to me in general. All kinds of moral and legal problems in the porn industry that I really don't want to enable. All that exploitation and what not. My porn consumption has never been an obsession, compulsion, or even an addiction but it's still a bit of a habit and one I'd like to kick.

Wish me luck.

I do wish you luck.

Everyone struggles with or falls into sin. Lust, like all sins, is difficult to struggle with. There is, after all, a line between lust and admiring beauty. It's an important distinction. Also, there's nothing wrong with you for looking at pornography. The deception of porn is that it takes hold of our faculty to give ourselves in love to others.

Porn is a lie as it uses other people and directs this faculty towards ourselves. Falling into its temptation/lie doesn't make you a weirdo or a creep, for example. All your struggle with porn means is that you're just another person who is in need of God's grace.

[Sundiata]

Struggling with sin doesn't make you any less of a Christian. God still loves you always.

[Rosmana]

With my mom working at home pretty much 24/7 now I've been unable to consume any kind of pornography and that's giving me time to really think about giving it up completely. I'd like to, I (kinda) want to, and I think that's the morally correct thing to do and yet... it's easier said than done. Even involuntary abstinence from porn hasn't completely erased the allure it holds over me. But I think I do want to give it up and I think it's absolutely necessary that I do so. Lust, after all, is a sin and there's really nothing more lustful than porn. And, frankly, it's just starting to lose it's appeal to me in general. All kinds of moral and legal problems in the porn industry that I really don't want to enable. All that exploitation and what not. My porn consumption has never been an obsession, compulsion, or even an addiction but it's still a bit of a habit and one I'd like to kick.

Wish me luck.

I do wish you luck.

Everyone struggles with or falls into sin. Lust, like all sins, is difficult to struggle with. There is, after all, a line between lust and admiring beauty. It's an important distinction. Also, there's nothing wrong with you for looking at pornography. The deception of porn is that it takes hold of our faculty to give ourselves in love to others. Porn is a lie as it uses other people and directs this faculty towards ourselves. Falling into its temptation/lie doesn't make you a weirdo or a creep, for example. All your struggle with porn means is that you're just another person who is in need of God's grace.

If you pray for others, will that grant them grace?

I believe it will.

[Sundiata]

I do wish you luck.

Everyone struggles with or falls into sin. Lust, like all sins, is difficult to struggle with. There is, after all, a line between lust and admiring beauty. It's an important distinction. Also, there's nothing wrong with you for looking at pornography. The deception of porn is that it takes hold of our faculty to give ourselves in love to others. Porn is a lie as it uses other people and directs this faculty towards ourselves. Falling into its temptation/lie doesn't make you a weirdo or a creep, for example. All your struggle with porn means is that you're just another person who is in need of God's grace.

If you pray for others, will that grant them grace?

I believe it will.

Well, grace comes from God, not us. It's God's will that we receive grace and our choice if we do not accept it. The way to accept God's grace is through the sacraments.

[Rosmana]

If you pray for others, will that grant them grace?

I believe it will.

Well, grace comes from God, not us. It's God's will that we receive it and our choice if we do not accept it. The way to accept God's grace is through the sacraments.

Yes, but if we ask God to grant them grace it can happen if God wills it, I see no reason why it can not.

In medieval times you could ask monks to pray for you.

[Sundiata]

Well, grace comes from God, not us. It's God's will that we receive it and our choice if we do not accept it. The way to accept God's grace is through the sacraments.

Yes, but if we ask God to grant them grace it can happen if God wills it, I see no reason why it can not.

In medieval times you could ask monks to pray for you.

You're not wrong that it's God's will that we receive grace. I just don't understand how you would know that grace is received if not through the sacraments. For example, "God's grace is invisible. The sacraments are not," to paraphrase Saint Augustine.

[Rosmana]

Yes, but if we ask God to grant them grace it can happen if God wills it, I see no reason why it can not.

In medieval times you could ask monks to pray for you.

You're not wrong that it's God's will that we receive grace. I just don't understand how you would know that grace is received if not through the sacraments. For example, God's grace is invisible. The sacraments are not.

Monks have been praying for the grace of others for centuries, I have been told by quite a few of them, as well as several priests.

After all, grace can come from faith AND good deeds.

[Lost Memories]

Most likely you two, Sundiata and Rosmana, are not being clear with the words you both are using. So misunderstanding each other.

[Rosmana]

Most likely you two, Sundiata and Rosmana, are not being clear with the words you both are using. So misunderstanding each other.

Maybe, I am just doing my best.