Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Lost Memories]

As nonsensical as it sounds, wouldn't an omnipotent being be able to do literally anything, including creating an object which paradoxically has both 3 and 4 sides at once?

I mean it would probably melt our brains to observe something for which we cannot comprehend, but if we're talking God here, any limitations seem... less than Godly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Dsre0XZHw

Surely god can sew too.
So yes he can, as long as there is a way around an apparent illogicity, which since it's only apparent, it isn't illogic at all, so again, within logic.

[Hanafuridake]

Yes, he is not limited to logic. Some of things he does can defy logic. For instance, when He made manna fall from heaven. How can that be logical? Is it a logical thing for manna to fall from heaven? God works in mysterious ways.

Miracles wouldn't defy logic as by nature they defy the physical laws of the universe. So why it would not be logical for mana to fall from heaven on its own, it's perfectly logical for God to pour mana from heaven.

Um, excuse me, what?

If God exists outside time and space, wouldn't that mean he's suprarational (and not limited to logic)?

That would be the case only if you understand logic as internally limited to time and space.

It absolutely is though. Logic is based on cause and effect, which are both characteristics of time and space.

Scientific laws aren't Platonic forms which order existence, they're observations about the consistent behavior of natural phenomenon and can be proven wrong. And assuming that there exists a being that has existed eternally without beginning nor end, such a being defies logic.

Or such a being would be logic in its purest form.

Hegel, give Tars his account back.

That sounds like a very sophistic word pretzel. How would something even be logic when logic is a series of inferences made about reality based on causality? It sounds more cool than what it makes sense.

[Lost Memories]

If God exists outside time and space, wouldn't that mean he's suprarational (and not limited to logic)?

That would be the case only if you understand logic as internally limited to time and space.

It absolutely is though. Logic is based on cause and effect, which are both characteristics of time and space.

I wouldn't say logic is based on consequentiability.
I would rather say logic is based on consistency of properties.

Consequentiability is logical when it is consistent.
Consequentiability is a subset of logic.

That is, for the understanding of logic we are talking about here. The one god adheres to.

[Dogmeat]

It absolutely is though. Logic is based on cause and effect, which are both characteristics of time and space.

I wouldn't say logic is based on consequentiability.
I would rather say logic is based on consistency of properties.

Consequentiability is logical when it is consistent.
Consequentiability is a subset of logic.

That is, for the understanding of logic we are talking about here. The one god adheres to.

I'd add to this and say that, in a world in which causality as we know it did not exist, logic still would. And could be understood.

It would be a very different, and probably unrecognizable, logic. But we would still be able to use apply reason to the world however it exists.

Unless we were confronted with an omnipotent being who deliberately made logic impossible, which I suppose is worth considering under the circumstances.

[Rosmana]

What do you all do at home other than prayer, after all, many of us are not able to go to work now.

I am working on my book.

[Luminesa]

What do you all do at home other than prayer, after all, many of us are not able to go to work now.

I am working on my book.

I should continue mine. I been playing computer games and listening to music. And for some reason, looking at pics of wedding dresses, even though I'm not getting married.

[Rosmana]

What do you all do at home other than prayer, after all, many of us are not able to go to work now.

I am working on my book.

I should continue mine. I been playing computer games and listening to music. And for some reason, looking at pics of wedding dresses, even though I'm not getting married.

Ok, writers block?

I have not played games in months. (they make me swear)

[Luminesa]

I should continue mine. I been playing computer games and listening to music. And for some reason, looking at pics of wedding dresses, even though I'm not getting married.

Ok, writers block?

I have not played games in months. (they make me swear)

A lack of a desire to proofread.

[Rosmana]

Ok, writers block?

I have not played games in months. (they make me swear)

A lack of a desire to proofread.

<Does not know what proofread is.

Googled it.

[The Sladerstan]

Yes, he is not limited to logic. Some of things he does can defy logic. For instance, when He made manna fall from heaven. How can that be logical? Is it a logical thing for manna to fall from heaven? God works in mysterious ways.

Miracles wouldn't defy logic as by nature they defy the physical laws of the universe. So why it would not be logical for mana to fall from heaven on its own, it's perfectly logical for God to pour mana from heaven.

Yes, of course He did it, but the thing is we cannot fully comprehend God. Take for instance Jesus being Full God and Full Man. How can someone be completely something but also completely another thing? How can a bird be completely bird but also completely butterfly?

Or how can 1 God be 3 persons? How can you exist everywhere at once? God does defy logic, and it's because He isn't bound by our laws or universe. His very nature defies Logic.

[Tarsonis]

Miracles wouldn't defy logic as by nature they defy the physical laws of the universe. So why it would not be logical for mana to fall from heaven on its own, it's perfectly logical for God to pour mana from heaven.

Yes, of course He did it, but the thing is we cannot fully comprehend God. Take for instance Jesus being Full God and Full Man. How can someone be completely something but also completely another thing? How can a bird be completely bird but also completely butterfly?

Or how can 1 God be 3 persons? How can you exist everywhere at once? God does defy logic, and it's because He isn't bound by our laws or universe. His very nature defies Logic.

You should really delve into Chalcedonian theology, the dual natures of Christ are quite easily comprehended when one understands hypostasis. Just as you are both fully human and fully animal, so is Christ fully Human and and fully God. Natures are intangible qualities, thus tangible qualities like divisions and parts are not relevant.

[The Sladerstan]

Yes, of course He did it, but the thing is we cannot fully comprehend God. Take for instance Jesus being Full God and Full Man. How can someone be completely something but also completely another thing? How can a bird be completely bird but also completely butterfly?

Or how can 1 God be 3 persons? How can you exist everywhere at once? God does defy logic, and it's because He isn't bound by our laws or universe. His very nature defies Logic.

You should really delve into Chalcedonian theology, the dual natures of Christ are quite easily comprehended when one understands hypostasis. Just as you are both fully human and fully animal, so is Christ fully Human and and fully God. Natures are intangible qualities, thus tangible qualities like divisions and parts are not relevant.

Yet the Trinity is still largely unexplained, as it is quite illogical for there to be 1 God and yet that One God is actually Three People, and somehow not Three God's. My point is God isn't bound by our laws or logic.

[Tarsonis]

Miracles wouldn't defy logic as by nature they defy the physical laws of the universe. So why it would not be logical for mana to fall from heaven on its own, it's perfectly logical for God to pour mana from heaven.

Um, excuse me, what?

A miracle is something that typically defies the laws of reality.
Thus, a miracle breakinf the laws of reality is logically sound. It's tautological.

That would be the case only if you understand logic as internally limited to time and space.

It absolutely is though. Logic is based on cause and effect, which are both characteristics of time and space.

Or such a being would be logic in its purest form.

Hegel, give Tars his account back.

That sounds like a very sophistic word pretzel. How would something even be logic when logic is a series of inferences made about reality based on causality? It sounds more cool than what it makes sense.

Logic, in all its objective and subjective manifestationss, is a product of the reality to which we are subjugated. What we find logical isn't based on cause and effect, so much as its based on our perception which is limited to a universe governed by cause and effect.

As God is governed by nothing but Himself, God's logic is governed by God and nothing else. At that point, God and Logic become indistinguishable.

[Northern Davincia]

You should really delve into Chalcedonian theology, the dual natures of Christ are quite easily comprehended when one understands hypostasis. Just as you are both fully human and fully animal, so is Christ fully Human and and fully God. Natures are intangible qualities, thus tangible qualities like divisions and parts are not relevant.

Yet the Trinity is still largely unexplained, as it is quite illogical for there to be 1 God and yet that One God is actually Three People, and somehow not Three God's. My point is God isn't bound by our laws or logic.

Is the federal government of the US 1 or 3 governments?

[Cekoviu]

Yet the Trinity is still largely unexplained, as it is quite illogical for there to be 1 God and yet that One God is actually Three People, and somehow not Three God's. My point is God isn't bound by our laws or logic.

Is the federal government of the US 1 or 3 governments?

That's actually a perfect metaphor, nice work.

[Tarsonis]

You should really delve into Chalcedonian theology, the dual natures of Christ are quite easily comprehended when one understands hypostasis. Just as you are both fully human and fully animal, so is Christ fully Human and and fully God. Natures are intangible qualities, thus tangible qualities like divisions and parts are not relevant.

Yet the Trinity is still largely unexplained, as it is quite illogical for there to be 1 God and yet that One God is actually Three People, and somehow not Three God's. My point is God isn't bound by our laws or logic.

3 persons of the Divine nature.

A nature, as understood by the Church Fathers, is an intangible distinguishing characteristic. The human nature, for instance, corrupted by the Fall, is shared in common with all of humanity. What makes one human is having the nature of a human. The totality of a nature, while not divisible among the persons of a nature, is limited to the persons of said nature.

For example, all human nature exists fully in every human being, all 7.3 whatever billion of us. If everyone were to die in this pandemic except for me, making me the last human on earth, human nature would not diminish as it would still exist fully with in me. However, should I trip and break my neck, the human nature would cease to exist.


The Divine nature is however not limited to the sums of its persons, because God is not finite. God is infinite, and thus the Divine nature is infinite. All three persons of the God head are thus infinitely God, yet distinct from each other.

[The Sladerstan]

Yet the Trinity is still largely unexplained, as it is quite illogical for there to be 1 God and yet that One God is actually Three People, and somehow not Three God's. My point is God isn't bound by our laws or logic.

3 persons of the Divine nature.

A nature, as understood by the Church Fathers, is an intangible distinguishing characteristic. The human nature, for instance, corrupted by the Fall, is shared in common with all of humanity. What makes one human is having the nature of a human. The totality of a nature, while not divisible among the persons of a nature, is limited to the persons of said nature.

For example, all human nature exists fully in every human being, all 7.3 whatever billion of us. If everyone were to die in this pandemic except for me, making me the last human on earth, human nature would not diminish as it would still exist fully with in me. However, should I trip and break my neck, the human nature would cease to exist.


The Divine nature is however not limited to the sums of its persons, because God is not finite. God is infinite, and thus the Divine nature is infinite. All three persons of the God head are thus infinitely God, yet distinct from each other.

I'm going to admit this subject isn't exactly my stronghold- I'm more knowledgeable in Soteriology and the Sacraments. So, you've won.

[Tarsonis]

3 persons of the Divine nature.

A nature, as understood by the Church Fathers, is an intangible distinguishing characteristic. The human nature, for instance, corrupted by the Fall, is shared in common with all of humanity. What makes one human is having the nature of a human. The totality of a nature, while not divisible among the persons of a nature, is limited to the persons of said nature.

For example, all human nature exists fully in every human being, all 7.3 whatever billion of us. If everyone were to die in this pandemic except for me, making me the last human on earth, human nature would not diminish as it would still exist fully with in me. However, should I trip and break my neck, the human nature would cease to exist.


The Divine nature is however not limited to the sums of its persons, because God is not finite. God is infinite, and thus the Divine nature is infinite. All three persons of the God head are thus infinitely God, yet distinct from each other.

I'm going to admit this subject isn't exactly my stronghold- I'm more knowledgeable in Soteriology and the Sacraments. So, you've won.

Ah but the natures of Christ are important to both of those!

[Tarsonis]

I wouldn't say logic is based on consequentiability.
I would rather say logic is based on consistency of properties.

Consequentiability is logical when it is consistent.
Consequentiability is a subset of logic.

That is, for the understanding of logic we are talking about here. The one god adheres to.

I'd add to this and say that, in a world in which causality as we know it did not exist, logic still would. And could be understood.

It would be a very different, and probably unrecognizable, logic. But we would still be able to use apply reason to the world however it exists.

Unless we were confronted with an omnipotent being who deliberately made logic impossible, which I suppose is worth considering under the circumstances.

Behold Apophis, God of Chaos

[Lost Memories]

I'm having some fun with this talk about the logic of god, so i'll try to contribute to flesh it out a bit more.

Logic = is what connects points together, by following all the relevant rules in place
both the rules, and the points getting connected, must first be defined unequivocally

Consistency of properties = is the quality to be defined unequivocally
valid both in the discourse of understanding and of substance, both for rules and objects

Consequentiality = is the direction of the connection
defines what is first and what second, what the cause, and what the effect, in a given relation between points


When it is said god is a being of logic, or that he/it acts within logic, the logic talked about must be understood with caution to one feature:
The logic talked about is one with a cosmological scope, not with an universal scope. As in, not limited on consequentiality, so a logic valid for both the universe(where consequentiality applies) and outside the universe(where consequentiality doesn't apply).

There would be also the feature of substantiality, but i'm not sure if this is relevant here:
Logic can be talked about as of substance, or as of understanding. That is,the logic we can recognize in things is the one of understanding, while the logic of substance is the relation between objects which exists regardless if we recognize it or not. Basically the same difference between science (the understanding of reality) and reality itself.
No actually, this is relevant. As subjectivity and objectivity(or understanding and substance) can't be conflated with scope of observation. Both are important parts to frame the logic used when talking about god.


What it means for god to act within logic, is that the relation between objects must respect the appliable rules, and both objects and rules must be consistent.
But both objects and rules aren't limited to what can be found only inside creation (=universe)

When it appears God is breaking logic, it's because either objects or rules not native of the universe come into play. Which may look illogic from an outlook limited to the universe (materiality?), but it is within logic when using a wider outlook to take into account also properties external to the universe.
Miracles are an example of that only apparent lack of logic (but still, an apparency we aren't able to look past).
There should also be the possibility for god to create new objects and new rules (or remove objects and rules?), which would allow to further go around any existing rules guiding logic, but in the end all objects connected will have to respect the given rules, that is what logic is. God acts within to logic.



Well, most of the confusion when talking about logic and god, comes from everyone using the word "logic" but actually meaning different things.
Obviously if the understanding of the object being discussed isn't consistent, then only an illogic discussion can come forth.
Consistency is the basis of logic.

[The Sladerstan]

I'm going to admit this subject isn't exactly my stronghold- I'm more knowledgeable in Soteriology and the Sacraments. So, you've won.

Ah but the natures of Christ are important to both of those!

Yes indeed, but I already know Jesus is full Man and God, and that there indeed is a Trinity. My argument earlier wasn't disputing either of these, but was stating that we cannot fully comprehend God.

[Lost Memories]

Ah but the natures of Christ are important to both of those!

Yes indeed, but I already know Jesus is full Man and God, and that there indeed is a Trinity. My argument earlier wasn't disputing either of these, but was stating that we cannot fully comprehend God.

Well, most of the confusion when talking about logic and god, comes from everyone using the word "logic" but actually meaning different things.

It seems it was again one of the above cases.

Tarsonis was already talking about logic on the substantial and cosmological level, while you were talking about subjective and human or materialistic logic.
Your views are two sides of the same coin.

[Northern Davincia]

Is the federal government of the US 1 or 3 governments?

That's actually a perfect metaphor, nice work.

I will admit the biggest flaw in my metaphor is that it runs close to partialist heresies. One might mistake a Person of the trinity as 1/3 God, instead of fully God.

[Albrenia]

Just to clarify, Jesus was The Son and existed before His earthly birth, correct?

[Neanderthaland]

I'd add to this and say that, in a world in which causality as we know it did not exist, logic still would. And could be understood.

It would be a very different, and probably unrecognizable, logic. But we would still be able to use apply reason to the world however it exists.

Unless we were confronted with an omnipotent being who deliberately made logic impossible, which I suppose is worth considering under the circumstances.

Behold Apophis, God of Chaos

Isn't Chaos already a titan?