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Turkish military offensive in Syria/Rojava

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which side you're sympathic towards?

Turkey
48
13%
Rojava/SDF
243
63%
Neither or unsure
92
24%
 
Total votes : 383

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Vistulange
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Founded: May 13, 2012
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Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:20 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Overall, the entire anachronism and the fitting of 19th and 20th century conceptualisations into "holes" which are from the 14th and 15th centuries. Not the history, i.e. the events that happened in his account, but the framing and the contextualisation of the history at hand which belies his overall approach to the "debate".

Ethnic cleansing and slavery are hardly modern concepts. They've been pretty well understood for millennia. It's just become widely considered immoral in the last century.

Absolutely, that's not what I am arguing. The whole idea of conflating "Turk" with "Muslim", or even "Turk" with the "Ottoman Empire" is very, very debatable, however. The Ottoman Empire itself underwent such immense identity shifts that it's impossible to consider the Ottoman state in 1453 the same as the one that ended in 1923. What I have a problem is the notion of considering certain imagined communities, i.e. nations and in my humble opinion, religions, to be immutable and non-temporal, and applying a post-18th century outlook to events that precede the maturation of certain ideas.

Otherwise, historical facts are not my beef with his approach, and neither is it my field of expertise to talk to great lengths about.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:26 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Ethnic cleansing and slavery are hardly modern concepts. They've been pretty well understood for millennia. It's just become widely considered immoral in the last century.

Absolutely, that's not what I am arguing. The whole idea of conflating "Turk" with "Muslim", or even "Turk" with the "Ottoman Empire" is very, very debatable, however. The Ottoman Empire itself underwent such immense identity shifts that it's impossible to consider the Ottoman state in 1453 the same as the one that ended in 1923. What I have a problem is the notion of considering certain imagined communities, i.e. nations and in my humble opinion, religions, to be immutable and non-temporal, and applying a post-18th century outlook to events that precede the maturation of certain ideas.

Otherwise, historical facts are not my beef with his approach, and neither is it my field of expertise to talk to great lengths about.

That may be true, but modern Turkey pretty clearly likes to maintain a strong ethnically Turkish and historically Ottoman image, with Erdogan imagining himself the heroic reconqueror of a new Ottoman Empire. This extends so far as for the Turkish government to deny that Ottoman and early Turkish genocides never happened. You don't engage in that sort of denial and come out innocent of those crimes.
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Pretty Much God
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Postby Pretty Much God » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:28 pm

Loben The 2nd wrote:Turkey has every right to do this.

Just because they have been the right to do it, doesn't mean it's right. The difference is blatant and obvious
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Founded: Sep 01, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:33 pm

Page wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Are you not aware one Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs? Or PKK terrorism in Turkey?


The PKK is a natural reaction to long and severe oppression.

Would you also be sympathetic towards Hamas?
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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:35 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Vistulange wrote:Absolutely, that's not what I am arguing. The whole idea of conflating "Turk" with "Muslim", or even "Turk" with the "Ottoman Empire" is very, very debatable, however. The Ottoman Empire itself underwent such immense identity shifts that it's impossible to consider the Ottoman state in 1453 the same as the one that ended in 1923. What I have a problem is the notion of considering certain imagined communities, i.e. nations and in my humble opinion, religions, to be immutable and non-temporal, and applying a post-18th century outlook to events that precede the maturation of certain ideas.

Otherwise, historical facts are not my beef with his approach, and neither is it my field of expertise to talk to great lengths about.

That may be true, but modern Turkey pretty clearly likes to maintain a strong ethnically Turkish and historically Ottoman image, with Erdogan imagining himself the heroic reconqueror of a new Ottoman Empire. This extends so far as for the Turkish government to deny that Ottoman and early Turkish genocides never happened. You don't engage in that sort of denial and come out innocent of those crimes.

That depends entirely on how you define "modern Turkey". If you mean 2019 Turkey, absolutely. However, I strongly disagree with the notion that Erdoğan imagines himself as some sort of neo-Sultan. I do not - not for one second - blame you for thinking so, however. You do not have access to Turkish media in an understandable manner, and you miss perhaps 95% of what goes on in Turkey at a given time. The neo-Ottoman rhetoric was never designed nor implemented as a means to reconquer territory and expand Turkish territory, not by Ahmet Davutoğlu, and not by whatever bumbling idiots - and this is perhaps the only time these days that you'll see me make a normative statement in NSG - are running the Foreign Ministry nowadays. It was a very poorly constructed rhetoric by Davutoğlu, relying on certain...oddities, let's call them, which have never been accepted by the academia of the time, either.

The Turkish government denies, specifically, the Armenian Genocide and the atrocities surrounding the First World War, such as the Assyrian Genocide. The ethnic cleansings of the past are never brought to government-level, instead staying at the level of, well, forum posters like us who don't have much else to do in their free time, for reasons such as "being too far in the past" and also the connected reason of "what the hell has that got to do with the world of 300/400/500/600 years later"?

Now, whether or not I believe the government's conduct regarding this is "right" or "wrong" is of absolutely no relevance and of very little importance, at least here on NSG. I would, however, argue with what I perceive to be wrong conceptualisations and formulations of ideas. Let's be honest: This is a forum. Topics are not opened for real debate, but in order to fuel a certain viewpoint, regardless of the side. Pro-choice topics are rarely opened for pro-choice supporters to genuinely have their ideas challenged, and are instead - in my observation - fields for pro-choice circlejerks. Same with practically every topic on NSG, and this topic is no different. The moment I make a post pointing out anything that I believe is problematic regarding a poster's idea, I am - I quote - labelled a genocide denier, when ironically, I'm genuinely not. This is because I put in my signature - stupidly so, perhaps - that I am indeed Turkish, and nothing else.

My behaviour against Nea Byzantia is an exception, though - I honestly can't bear that person.
Last edited by Vistulange on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Turkish-Canadian, self-identified social democrat and "Neo-Kemalist", aspiring academician. Interested in nuclear proliferation, Turkish foreign policy, democratisation, and nation-building. Open to telegrams on all topics, feel free to ask me anything.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Meligoland wrote:abandoning our allies is foolish.

if anything, given how the Turks are drifting to Russia we should be sponsoring the creation of a Kurdish state.

PYD-led Rojava > KDP-led Kurdish nationalism
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:36 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Page wrote:
The PKK is a natural reaction to long and severe oppression.

Would you also be sympathetic towards Hamas?

I don't think they said they were sympathetic toward the PKK, so that's a rather irrelevant question.
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD
Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The East Pacific

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Founded: Sep 24, 2018
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:36 pm

I hope our sons return to the country safely. Turkish Army hero soldiers start land operation
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Founded: Sep 01, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:38 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Page wrote:
The PKK is a natural reaction to long and severe oppression.

I am sympathetic towards the PKK myself, to be honest. They are preferable to Erdogan's personal terrorist group (the Turkish Armed Forces).

Are you aware of Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs?
Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today.… National pride has no need of the delirium of race.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:39 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:I am sympathetic towards the PKK myself, to be honest. They are preferable to Erdogan's personal terrorist group (the Turkish Armed Forces).

Are you aware of Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs?

Are you referring to the destruction of several of the Arab settlements built after 1975 with the express goal of displacing stateless Kurds?
PROFESSIONAL CRITIC OF ALL THINGS GENSEC
There never has been, nor will there ever be, such thing as a wallenburger.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
PRO: GOOD || ANTI: BAD
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Founded: Sep 01, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:39 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Meligoland wrote:abandoning our allies is foolish.

if anything, given how the Turks are drifting to Russia we should be sponsoring the creation of a Kurdish state.

PYD-led Rojava > KDP-led Kurdish nationalism

Both will persecute Arabs, Syrian Ba’athism is the least of all the evils in this conflict
Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today.… National pride has no need of the delirium of race.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:41 pm

Meligoland wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:PYD-led Rojava > KDP-led Kurdish nationalism

>socialist Kurds

no thanks

"Socialism EW!" is the mindset that helped lay the path to a theocratic Iran.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:41 pm

Call your opponents terrorists, destroy them with your far superior forces, and then once you've won the war impose a peace at gunpoint in which the enemy's independent existence as a community is written out of existence through wholesale dilution unless they want to attack the newcomers and thus "prove you right".

It's very cynical, but nothing new. Regional powers have long used post-war population transfers to make the ethnic map more closely match what they wanted the borders in the sphere of influence to look like. It's not nice and it's a shame because Rojava was fairly enlightened, but I can see how it reflects the Turkish national interest and why they're playing their hand this way.
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:49 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Meligoland wrote:>socialist Kurds

no thanks

"Socialism EW!" is the mindset that helped lay the path to a theocratic Iran.

Exactly, we should be helping Assad, not fighting him or staying neutral

Not only did he fight ISIS, Ba’ath socialism is the only mainstream secular ideology in the entire Middle East. Rojava is definitely not the ideal state, as is evident by its persecution of Arabs and other minorities, as well as its human rights record and suppression of the opposition
Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today.… National pride has no need of the delirium of race.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:50 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Gormwood wrote:"Socialism EW!" is the mindset that helped lay the path to a theocratic Iran.

Exactly, we should be helping Assad, not fighting him or staying neutral

Not only did he fight ISIS, Ba’ath socialism is the only mainstream secular ideology in the entire Middle East. Rojava is definitely not the ideal state, as is evident by its persecution of Arabs and other minorities, as well as its human rights record and suppression of the opposition

This idea that Assad should get a complete pass on ordering nonviolent demonstrators shot then dropping barrel bombs and possibly chemical weapons on civilians.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:50 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Gormwood wrote:"Socialism EW!" is the mindset that helped lay the path to a theocratic Iran.

Exactly, we should be helping Assad, not fighting him or staying neutral

Not only did he fight ISIS, Ba’ath socialism is the only mainstream secular ideology in the entire Middle East. Rojava is definitely not the ideal state, as is evident by its persecution of Arabs and other minorities, as well as its human rights record and suppression of the opposition

The Assad regime does precisely everything in the latter portion of your post, as well. I mean, you could practically switch "Rojava" with "Ba'athist Syria" and "Arab" by any non-Nusayri group, and it'd fit.
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:51 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:I am sympathetic towards the PKK myself, to be honest. They are preferable to Erdogan's personal terrorist group (the Turkish Armed Forces).

Are you aware of Rojava’s treatment of its native Arabs?


Oh please, what about Turkish's treatment of their native Kurds?

There is no winner here.
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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:51 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Gormwood wrote:"Socialism EW!" is the mindset that helped lay the path to a theocratic Iran.

Exactly, we should be helping Assad, not fighting him or staying neutral

Not only did he fight ISIS, Ba’ath socialism is the only mainstream secular ideology in the entire Middle East. Rojava is definitely not the ideal state, as is evident by its persecution of Arabs and other minorities, as well as its human rights record and suppression of the opposition

Assad is a mass murderer and one of the most brutal dictators in the world. He also actively assisted terrorist attacks on western soldiers. He is a threat and he must be removed.
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:42 pm

I hope that the Turkish milltary will not commit war crimes.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:44 pm

Atholl wrote:The Kurds Assyrians should have gotten their own state long ago.


Fixed that for you.
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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:44 pm

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:I hope that the Turkish milltary will not commit war crimes.

A bit like saying "I hope Gary Glitter won't molest kids."
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:46 pm

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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:59 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:

I'm not going to accept any source that describes the SDF as worse than ISIS.
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Flawless Walruses
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Postby Flawless Walruses » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:09 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:

I'm not going to accept any source that describes the SDF as worse than ISIS.


It said no such thing.

Pro-Turkish and anti-PKK, unashamedly, but no more biased than any Western government press release on the region.

Thanks for sharing, Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:23 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:

I'm not going to accept any source that describes the SDF as worse than ISIS.


The YPG appears to be, at the very least, closely affiliated if not an covert branch of the PPK which in turn is controlled by Ocalan from prison like a mob boss guides his crime empire from behind walls. The PKK is a throughly stalinist organization who conducts frequent internal purges and executions and before converting - due reasons of good western PR - to "democratic confederalism" Ocalan was proudly comparing himself to Stalin and is surrounding himself with a cult of personality. Which is very apparent in many YPG demonstrations and banners which frequently feature him.

He even adopted his stache for additional MilliStalins.
Last edited by Nakena on Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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