"My Body, My Choice!": Should it Extend to Suicide?

[Highever]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

So...what you are going to apply criminal penalties to those who attempt suicide and throw them in prison or something? Yeah that will for sure change their mindset and make them realize that they have so much to live for.

[Neanderthaland]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

This makes about as much sense as charging a dominatrix with assault.

Is it really a crime if the "victim" wants it?

[Kowani]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

This makes about as much sense as charging a dominatrix with assault.

Old people say the greatest things…

[The Land of the Ephyral]

The header statement is more valid for suicide than abortion because at least it is your body you are going to destroy.

I have yet to take a position on suicide though so I will see if any arguments of suicide convince me.

[The New California Republic]

The header statement is more valid for suicide than abortion because at least it is your body you are going to destroy.

It can be argued to be valid for both, albeit in different ways.

I have yet to take a position on suicide though so I will see if any arguments of suicide convince me.

Then venture forth and read through the thread.

[The Land of the Ephyral]

It can be argued to be valid for both, albeit in different ways.

This is true, though on abortion I reject bodily autonomy as a reason outright.

Then venture forth and read through the thread.

I have done a skim through. Nothing really convincing to me. I am leaning towards the side of not permitted except perhaps in cases of terminal disease but that wasn't the original question.

In truth I do not subscribe to an absolute theory of self-sovereignty because of how humans are social animals. The whole comes before the desires of one or a few. Self-sovereignty to the extreme just strikes me as symptomatic of hyperindividualism which in my view does not remotely support the structures necessary to keep society intact.

I fail to see how the free and taboo-less suicide of people at a whim could benefit society as a whole and thus support all the people within it.

So, currently leaning towards a position of anti-suicide.

[Abaja]

Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs

No one means any harm when they try to help others overcome their struggles and prevent suicide. The reason why we don't tell people who get tattoos not to get them or tell people not to braid their hair is because it harms no one. Suicide harms yourself and can break your family/loved ones.

People will tell you not to swim in an ocean full of sharks. Does that mean they don't respect your "personal choice?" No, it means they want you to be safe. Someone who prevents another person from committing suicide is likely doing so because they care for them. Unless you want the suicide rate to get higher, you should be taking steps to help prevent it. Anti-suicide organizations want to do that. And you criticize them?

I couldn't imagine telling an innocent suicidal "go ahead" without feeling sick.

[Estanglia]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

1) Whether or not assisted suicide is considered murder depends upon the country.

2) How can you murder yourself?

3) How are you gonna punish people who commit suicide? Throw their corpse in jail for the rest of their death?

[Godular]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

1) Whether or not assisted suicide is considered murder depends upon the country.

2) How can you murder yourself?

3) How are you gonna punish people who commit suicide? Throw their corpse in jail for the rest of their death?

Reexecution. Hang them by the neck until they're... EXTREMELY dead.

[The Alma Mater]

Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs

No one means any harm when they try to help others overcome their struggles and prevent suicide. The reason why we don't tell people who get tattoos not to get them or tell people not to braid their hair is because it harms no one. Suicide harms yourself and can break your family/loved ones.

People will tell you not to swim in an ocean full of sharks. Does that mean they don't respect your "personal choice?" No, it means they want you to be safe. Someone who prevents another person from committing suicide is likely doing so because they care for them. Unless you want the suicide rate to get higher, you should be taking steps to help prevent it. Anti-suicide organizations want to do that. And you criticize them?

I couldn't imagine telling an innocent suicidal "go ahead" without feeling sick.

Even if that other person is in constant pain and suffers constantly ? Are you really so selfish that you would tell them they have to live on because otherwise YOU would feel sad ?

[Page]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

I don't think even assisted suicide should be illegal, provided that one assists out of compassion for the person who wants to die and not for personal gain. That is already the case in some countries.

[The New California Republic]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

I don't think even assisted suicide should be illegal, provided that one assists out of compassion for the person who wants to die and not for personal gain. That is already the case in some countries.

Yup. In cases of assisted suicide there are robust frameworks in countries where it is legal, which gives the person multiple opportunities to back out after being told explicitly and repeatedly what will happen if they continue, with opportunities to say if they are doing it under duress.

[Drongonia]

I'm very torn. The conservative part of me wants people NOT to kill themselves, because why the hell should the government allow them to?

The more libertarian part of me says: MUH FREEDOM!

So how about this...

After a proper examination, opinion and diagnosis from a specialist or two in the field of their illness (eg: Cancer), terminally ill people should be allowed to legally commit assisted suicide with the help of a licensed and fully trained medical practitioner. It is also paramount that medical professionals have the right to object to performing this procedure.

It will also reduce the emotional impact on the patients and their families in the long run. A vast majority of people don't want their last memories of their mother, father, sibling, or even child, to be that of them lying in a bed slowly sliding towards death. They want to go on a holiday, spend time walking on the beach, have their favourite meals together, visit a sports match they like, and do other family activities while their family member is happy and still relatively healthy. They don't want to get a phone call during the night to tell them their beloved family member has died (or is on their deathbed) and that they need to get to the hospital, or be sitting next to them and suddenly they succumb to their illness.

Putting people through months of chemotherapy and other treatments when they don't really want it is insane! It should be viewed as an extension to the individual's right to refuse healthcare of any form, as long as they are of a sound mind to do so.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/member/2017/0269/latest/DLM7285905.html#DLM7285957

[The New California Republic]

I'm very torn. The conservative part of me wants people NOT to kill themselves, because why the hell should the government allow them to?

The more libertarian part of me says: MUH FREEDOM!

So how about this...

After a proper examination, opinion and diagnosis from a specialist or two in the field of their illness (eg: Cancer), terminally ill people should be allowed to legally commit assisted suicide with the help of a licensed and fully trained medical practitioner. It is also paramount that medical professionals have the right to object to performing this procedure.

It will also reduce the emotional impact on the patients and their families in the long run. A vast majority of people don't want their last memories of their mother, father, sibling, or even child, to be that of them lying in a bed slowly sliding towards death. They want to go on a holiday, spend time walking on the beach, have their favourite meals together, visit a sports match they like, and do other family activities while their family member is happy and still relatively healthy. They don't want to get a phone call during the night to tell them their beloved family member has died (or is on their deathbed) and that they need to get to the hospital, or be sitting next to them and suddenly they succumb to their illness.

Putting people through months of chemotherapy and other treatments when they don't really want it is insane! It should be viewed as an extension to the individual's right to refuse healthcare of any form, as long as they are of a sound mind to do so.

The problem is that many of the cases that involve people seeking assisted suicide do not necessarily have terminal illnesses at all; it is people with Motor Neurone Disease etc whereby it isn't going to kill them because of the ability to intervene medically, but the person will lose their ability to walk (or even move at all), to eat independently, to drink independently, to speak, to go to the bathroom, etc, and many people just do not want to live that way. I certainly wouldn't.

[Drongonia]

The problem is that many of the cases that involve people seeking assisted suicide do not necessarily have terminal illnesses at all; it is people with Motor Neurone Disease etc whereby it isn't going to kill them because of the ability to intervene medically, but the person will lose their ability to walk (or even move at all), to eat independently, to drink independently, to speak, etc, and many people just do not want to live that way. I certainly wouldn't.

I agree with you there, and as long as the person is of a sound mind and is able to communicate that they want the treatment, then I suppose why not? It's definitely a life-altering illness which impacts their quality of life greatly. I'm just stuck in the terminal illness mindset because that's what the debate centres around here.

[Fascist Soyouso]

No one means any harm when they try to help others overcome their struggles and prevent suicide. The reason why we don't tell people who get tattoos not to get them or tell people not to braid their hair is because it harms no one. Suicide harms yourself and can break your family/loved ones.

If someone attempts suicide the only way we know for sure they can harm themselves is by failing due to not being assisted by a professional, and thus having to deal with the injuries they suffered by the time people found them. Like how smoking while pregnant isn't really harmful to the eventual child if the person is planning to get an abortion and no child is going to exist.

And indeed it can do that to other people, but why should that be a reason to stop people if they really want to?

People will tell you not to swim in an ocean full of sharks. Does that mean they don't respect your "personal choice?" No, it means they want you to be safe. Someone who prevents another person from committing suicide is likely doing so because they care for them. Unless you want the suicide rate to get higher, you should be taking steps to help prevent it. Anti-suicide organizations want to do that. And you criticize them?

Yes it does mean they don't respect their personal choice, good intentions don't change anything. They're putting what they want for them, or their feelings about the other person, above their decision.

I support both. Suicide prevention should not be about stopping people from dying, but decreasing the amount of people who want to die. It's stupid for it to be about the former. Awareness, education, and compassion about the issues that often get people to this point needs to be increased for the wellness of society, as well as services for people who need help. Doesn't mean we should suddenly have more say in how long a person lives than that person. We can have our cake and eat it too here.

I couldn't imagine telling an innocent suicidal "go ahead" without feeling sick.

And? Plenty of people couldn't tell people to get an abortion without feeling sick because they see it as murder, doesn't mean their feelings should matter in what they do with their body.

[Elwher]

This got buried in the Muslim digression, so I am reposting it now that we seem to be back on track.

Suicide can be a rational choice under certain circumstances, and as such, should not be made illegal nor have barriers put up against it.

One may have evaluated the possible outcomes in one's life and found none of them worthwhile. In that case, living on is irrational.

One may have committed such dishonorable actions that continued existence will bring nothing but shame to one's family and friends. In that case, continued existence is selfish.

One may be in a position where one's death will prevent many deaths. In that case, continued existence is cowardly.

[Cekoviu]

Suicide should not be allowed, for the same reason that assisted suicide is considered murder. That is exactly what it is.

It should not be considered murder (and is not in some Western countries and US states), as it is consensual and exercises the right to bodily autonomy.

[Ohioan Territory]

Sure. But often, suicide is considered/attempted by people that lack adequate mental health treatment. Fix that up first.

[Abaja]

No one means any harm when they try to help others overcome their struggles and prevent suicide. The reason why we don't tell people who get tattoos not to get them or tell people not to braid their hair is because it harms no one. Suicide harms yourself and can break your family/loved ones.

People will tell you not to swim in an ocean full of sharks. Does that mean they don't respect your "personal choice?" No, it means they want you to be safe. Someone who prevents another person from committing suicide is likely doing so because they care for them. Unless you want the suicide rate to get higher, you should be taking steps to help prevent it. Anti-suicide organizations want to do that. And you criticize them?

I couldn't imagine telling an innocent suicidal "go ahead" without feeling sick.

Even if that other person is in constant pain and suffers constantly ? Are you really so selfish that you would tell them they have to live on because otherwise YOU would feel sad ?

I have a hard time understanding how helping someone out is selfish. Do you want the suicide rate to go down or not? Because leaving them be without making an effort to help it is definetly going to make it spike.

About 90% of people who commit suicide had an underlying mental illness, such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, etc. Often times people kill themselves not because they just want to die, but because they don't want to endure their mental trauma any longer. Having more connectivity to the person can reduce their risk of committing suicide and reduce feelings of isolation. Psychotherapy, or having relationship with a therapist, can help fade negative feelings and produce positive ones. 80% to 90% of people that seek treatment for depression are treated successfully using therapy and/or medication.

So no, it's not about letting the person continue in constant pain because the whole point of preventing suicide is about eliminating that constant pain.

[Ginicun]

Yes, but it should be discouraged. Suicide is a painful thing that some families have to deal with, and even though people have the right to take their own life.... DON'T. PERIOD.

[Salus Maior]

Lots of people already think it does.

[Salus Maior]

Suicide, at the end of the day, is a personal choice people make over what should happen to their own body. We don't have centres out there telling people not to tattoo themselves or not to braid their hair, why is it any of the business of so-called 'suicide prevention' organisations or 'mental health' organisations to tell thinking, autonomous human beings, in the free exercise of their agency, to make a free, informed choice over what happens to their body? We should treat suicide as a personal choice, and not cast judgment on what another person chooses to do with their body through these discriminatory 'suicide prevention' NGOs

You've obviously never known someone who's committed suicide.

[Salus Maior]

Even if that other person is in constant pain and suffers constantly ? Are you really so selfish that you would tell them they have to live on because otherwise YOU would feel sad ?

Then we give them every ounce of help we can to help them through whatever trouble or imbalance that's causing them to be suicidal.

Or if it's an end-of-life thing, there's already something that exists that is meant to help an easy passing but I forget what it's called.

[Mexican Great Union]

To me suicide should be a topic most avoided