India: Impregnate your wife or face the music

[Ostroeuropa]

4. You seem to think that the details that make the difference are the sex of the people involved.

Nope. Change the sex and/or gender and it all stays the same.

The details that make the difference is what the judge means by "legal and logical consequences".

You used marital rape previously as an example of oppression against women.
Yet the law was the law so what's the problem Gravlen?

Sometimes the law is unjust. But before you can say that - like, when you claim that Sweden has criminalized paternity testing - you should know what the law actually is.

It's not a threat, it's just the law.

Is it, though?

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for someone to face legal consequences for refusing to engage in a sexual act? Which consequences do you think are acceptable?

Maybe prostitution in small claims court?

That's about it.

[Gravlen]

Before even starting to call it 'rape', especially since the judge repeatedly says the husband has to consent, can someone please clarify what "face the music" means in this regard?

“The respondent may refuse ART by not giving his consent. But by unreasonable refusal he may expose himself to the legal and logical consequences which may follow.”

What are the legal and logical consequences mentioned here?

This I looked for extensively last night and I'm not sure - but it's clearly more than having to face her criminal complaint (as you referenced later in the thread), or the word "unreasonable" makes no sense. After all, no matter how reasonable his refusal, she's not going to drop the complaint unless he gives her the blood money sperm.

This seems the most likely to me as well. I wish we could read the verdict itself, it might be clearer in context.

I'm also curious as to whether he's filed a criminal complaint about her? It's not really relevant, but I noticed that the article says "The husband [...] had filed for divorce alleging cruelty by her in 2017".

Regarding the complaint, would it be more or less of a problem if someone promised to drop a criminal case in exchange for a bribe?

I wouldn't call it a bribe if you're offering something to the victim/accuser. I usually call it compensation or restitution.

[Galloism]

4. You seem to think that the details that make the difference are the sex of the people involved.

Nope. Change the sex and/or gender and it all stays the same.

The details that make the difference is what the judge means by "legal and logical consequences".

I do wonder how you (and by extension, the world) would react if the court said men have a right to reproduce and if a man's estranged wife wouldn't carry his child she would face the "legal and logical consequences" for not being impregnated by him.

[Gravlen]

Nope. Change the sex and/or gender and it all stays the same.

The details that make the difference is what the judge means by "legal and logical consequences".


Sometimes the law is unjust. But before you can say that - like, when you claim that Sweden has criminalized paternity testing - you should know what the law actually is.


Is it, though?

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for someone to face legal consequences for refusing to engage in a sexual act? Which consequences do you think are acceptable?

Maybe prostitution in small claims court?

That's about it.

Prostitution, perhaps.
Porn actor refusing to fulfill their contract and refusing to return their fee.

But then again, there is a question of what comes first here. If someone makes a legitimate legal claim (like a landlord demanding rent), and then requests sex as an alternative (in lieu of rent); if that person / request for sex is turned down, and the person continues to press the claim (for rent), is the other party (tenant) facing legal consequences for refusing to engage in a sexual act?

If someone makes a legitimate legal claim (like the seller of a car demanding payment), and then requests sex as an alternative (in lieu of payment); if that person / request for sex is turned down, and the person continues to press the claim (for payment), is the other party (buyer) facing legal consequences for refusing to engage in a sexual act?

[Galloism]

This I looked for extensively last night and I'm not sure - but it's clearly more than having to face her criminal complaint (as you referenced later in the thread), or the word "unreasonable" makes no sense. After all, no matter how reasonable his refusal, she's not going to drop the complaint unless he gives her the blood money sperm.

This seems the most likely to me as well. I wish we could read the verdict itself, it might be clearer in context.

I'm also curious as to whether he's filed a criminal complaint about her? It's not really relevant, but I noticed that the article says "The husband [...] had filed for divorce alleging cruelty by her in 2017".

Not sure. We do know that female abusers often use the state in furtherance of their abuse, and we know reproductive coercion is often a tactic used by abusers (of both sexes). Given his filing of divorce on cruelty grounds, and her criminal complaint (which conveniently she will drop in exchange for making him reproduce), I'm fairly certain this is a case of domestic abuse being furthered via the legal system.

Regarding the complaint, would it be more or less of a problem if someone promised to drop a criminal case in exchange for a bribe?

I wouldn't call it a bribe if you're offering something to the victim/accuser. I usually call it compensation or restitution.

Usually compensation or restitution is explicitly related to the damages, and doesn't actually result in charges being dropped, but reduced or suspended (with a keep your nose clean requirement).

[Gravlen]

Nope. Change the sex and/or gender and it all stays the same.

The details that make the difference is what the judge means by "legal and logical consequences".

I do wonder how you (and by extension, the world) would react if the court said men have a right to reproduce and if a man's estranged wife wouldn't carry his child she would face the "legal and logical consequences" for not being impregnated by him.

I would still want to know what meant before warming up my outrage glands. I don't know what to tell you, I like critical thinking and informed decisions. That's just how I roll...

[Galloism]

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for someone to face legal consequences for refusing to engage in a sexual act? Which consequences do you think are acceptable?

Maybe prostitution in small claims court?

That's about it.

Prostitution, perhaps.
Porn actor refusing to fulfill their contract and refusing to return their fee.

But then again, there is a question of what comes first here. If someone makes a legitimate legal claim (like a landlord demanding rent), and then requests sex as an alternative (in lieu of rent); if that person / request for sex is turned down, and the person continues to press the claim (for rent), is the other party (tenant) facing legal consequences for refusing to engage in a sexual act?

When it comes to sexual acts like you've described, that's typically a violation of housing laws and can make the landlord actually owe the tenant (in civil court) for even trying to make that trade.

We recognize the coercion inherent in such scenarios, and legislated and regulated accordingly.

[Gravlen]

This seems the most likely to me as well. I wish we could read the verdict itself, it might be clearer in context.

I'm also curious as to whether he's filed a criminal complaint about her? It's not really relevant, but I noticed that the article says "The husband [...] had filed for divorce alleging cruelty by her in 2017".

Not sure. We do know that female abusers often use the state in furtherance of their abuse, and we know reproductive coercion is often a tactic used by abusers (of both sexes). Given his filing of divorce on cruelty grounds, and her criminal complaint (which conveniently she will drop in exchange for making him reproduce), I'm fairly certain this is a case of domestic abuse being furthered via the legal system.

I wouldn't call it a bribe if you're offering something to the victim/accuser. I usually call it compensation or restitution.

Usually compensation or restitution is explicitly related to the damages, and doesn't actually result in charges being dropped, but reduced or suspended (with a keep your nose clean requirement).

Most of the time it happens ex curia (out of court), and that leaves the victim/accuser with a binary option to drop or not drop, not reduce charges (and no authority to suspend them either). Only when you go into court and get a plea deal will that latter bit of your post apply.

[Risottia]

I got to tell you, I have an issue with what we are calling rape these days. Go whack off in a cup, its humiliating, its uncalled for, it may even be sexual assault. But it ain't rape.

Are you aware of how semen is extracted from men?
The guy has been told to have his semen extracted under threat of legal punishment if he fails to comply.

[Gravlen]

I got to tell you, I have an issue with what we are calling rape these days. Go whack off in a cup, its humiliating, its uncalled for, it may even be sexual assault. But it ain't rape.

Are you aware of how semen is extracted from men?
The guy has been told to have his semen extracted under threat of legal punishment if he fails to comply.

What's the punishment?

[Aclion]

Mm-mm nothing like a little feminist rape apoligism in the morning.

[Galloism]

Not sure. We do know that female abusers often use the state in furtherance of their abuse, and we know reproductive coercion is often a tactic used by abusers (of both sexes). Given his filing of divorce on cruelty grounds, and her criminal complaint (which conveniently she will drop in exchange for making him reproduce), I'm fairly certain this is a case of domestic abuse being furthered via the legal system.


Usually compensation or restitution is explicitly related to the damages, and doesn't actually result in charges being dropped, but reduced or suspended (with a keep your nose clean requirement).

Most of the time it happens ex curia (out of court), and that leaves the victim/accuser with a binary option to drop or not drop, not reduce charges (and no authority to suspend them either). Only when you go into court and get a plea deal will that latter bit of your post apply.

Granted India is a different country, etc, but on my side of the world, criminal charges are brought by the state. Once you’ve laid a complaint, even for shoplifting, you can’t choose to drop it - only the prosecutor can do that, as he represents the state that’s bringing the complaint.

And if restitution is offered, it’s generally offered as part of a plea deal offered by the prosecutor.

[Gormwood]

Are the usual suspects trying to act like India- a country notorious for misogynistic rape- has always been Feministan?

[Gravlen]

Most of the time it happens ex curia (out of court), and that leaves the victim/accuser with a binary option to drop or not drop, not reduce charges (and no authority to suspend them either). Only when you go into court and get a plea deal will that latter bit of your post apply.

Granted India is a different country, etc, but on my side of the world, criminal charges are brought by the state. Once you’ve laid a complaint, even for shoplifting, you can’t choose to drop it - only the prosecutor can do that, as he represents the state that’s bringing the complaint.

And if restitution is offered, it’s generally offered as part of a plea deal offered by the prosecutor.

Things are handled differently in different legal systems, who could possibly have seen that coming?

[Risottia]

Are you aware of how semen is extracted from men?
The guy has been told to have his semen extracted under threat of legal punishment if he fails to comply.

What's the punishment?

The order said, “The respondent may refuse ART by not giving his consent. But by unreasonable refusal he may expose himself to the legal and logical consequences which may follow.”
...
Judge Chauhan, in her order, said within its limited powers, the court can only hold that “she has a right to reproduce and that she is entitled to exercise it.” The judge also said, “Not allowing a fertile woman to procreate is like compelling her to sterilize. To curb or to curtail reproductive right may have a subtle and devastating demographic outcome.’’ The wife undertook to withdraw a criminal case of cruelty she has filed against her husband if he agrees to ART.

The judge's order clearly specifies that there will be consequences if he doesn't consent to have his semen extracted, including and not limited to a (totally instrumental) case of cruelty the wife filed, because "not allowing a fertile woman to procreate is like compelling her to sterilize", while men are just sperm donors, be they willing or not.

[Galloism]

Granted India is a different country, etc, but on my side of the world, criminal charges are brought by the state. Once you’ve laid a complaint, even for shoplifting, you can’t choose to drop it - only the prosecutor can do that, as he represents the state that’s bringing the complaint.

And if restitution is offered, it’s generally offered as part of a plea deal offered by the prosecutor.

Things are handled differently in different legal systems, who could possibly have seen that coming?

I found a handy flowchart.

http://www.mondaq.com/pdf/clients/318472.pdf

It indicates criminal charges are brought by the state, but also private criminal charges are possible. I’m not sure how I feel about private criminal charges.

We may need to send them some freedom.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Fuck off india.

[Panthera Leo]

This is quite disturbing

[Kragholm Free States]

Are the usual suspects trying to act like India- a country notorious for misogynistic rape- has always been Feministan?

No, I don't think anyone's been trying to act like that, as you well know. Are you trying to imply that this particular ruling did not have a justification motivated at least partly by feminist theory?

[Ethel mermania]

Are you aware of how semen is extracted from men?
The guy has been told to have his semen extracted under threat of legal punishment if he fails to comply.

What's the punishment?

The legal and logical consequences the judge mentioned

[Chestaan]

Are the usual suspects trying to act like India- a country notorious for misogynistic rape- has always been Feministan?

Why would you focus on that in this case? Why not condemn this awful state of affairs instead?

[Cekoviu]

I can't tell if using reproductive rights as an excuse to violate someone's reproductive rights is completely idiotic or genius.

[Ors Might]

We have a judge implying that there will be “legal consequences” if a man refuses to donate his sperm to the woman whom he has claimed has been cruel to him. What those consequences are are not entirely clear but when the judge presiding over your case makes a statement that could easily be seen as a threat to commit an inherently sexual act or else, that makes me wonder in what thy fuck is going on in India.

[Drongonia]

What the fuck even is this? Well, completely insane is what it is.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

This decision is based on human rights and not Indian law?

It’s focusing on just the rights of one person though. I’m not sure you have a “human right” to be a parent however, be you woman or man.

What I don’t get is that he was mandated by court to reproduce, but in ART he doesn’t need to consent. He has the right. Yet, if he doesn’t consent, he’ll be punished.