TDT 4: What the $#@! is a "womxn", anyways?

[Ifreann]

It's neither lmfao


again, neither
also "trap is a slur" is such a joke

---

Gren, I'd respond, but get your formatting in check and resolve how you somehow duplicated your post within your post. You said a lot of shit that I do want to respond to, I just don't want to have to play janitor just to do it.

Oh, I forgot that cis people got to define what is or isn't offensive to trans people. My bad.

Our cis-powers know no limits.

[Novus America]

No, it's bog-standard heat of passion murder and it should be prosecuted as such.

Heat of passion murder is still murder, and should be punished as much as normal murder.

Well there are different degrees of murder.
So there is no one “normal murder”.

[Cekoviu]

Heat of passion murder is still murder, and should be punished as much as normal murder.

Well no, not really. A murder committed in the heat of passion without a period for cooling off lacks an element of premeditation and it's typically sentenced differently. Walking in on your wife in bed with someone else and shooting her is murder but walking in on your wife, leaving, and shooting her next week is worse.

That's true - for murder/assault cases where the defendant can't prove that they're innocent, I've seen defense attorneys go for a lighter sentence by saying it was a crime of passion (even when it wasn't).
However. If somebody whom you had sex with does not have the genitals you prefer, that in no way, shape, or form is a reasonable defense for murder or assault. It's completely disproportionate and shouldn't even anger a normal human.

[Des-Bal]

Oh, I forgot that cis people got to define what is or isn't offensive to trans people. My bad.

You can decide to be offended by anything but what is and is not a slur isn't something you get special ownership over.

[Cekoviu]

Oh, I forgot that cis people got to define what is or isn't offensive to trans people. My bad.

You can decide to be offended by anything but what is and is not a slur isn't something you get special ownership over.

Nor do you or Proctopeo, friendo.

[Drongonia]

It's completely disproportionate and shouldn't even anger a normal human.

What part of being tricked into having sex with someone shouldn't anger you? Or am I missing something here?

[Des-Bal]

Nor do you or Proctopeo, friendo.

Have either of us called for ownership? We've offered explanations for why the term isn't a slur rather than just insisting that our membership to whatever classification meant we got to dictate was and was not offensive.

That's true - for murder/assault cases where the defendant can't prove that they're innocent, I've seen defense attorneys go for a lighter sentence by saying it was a crime of passion (even when it wasn't).
However. If somebody whom you had sex with does not have the genitals you prefer, that in no way, shape, or form is a reasonable defense for murder or assault. It's completely disproportionate and shouldn't even anger a normal human.

You're saying that the typical person would not be angered by the revelation that their partner did not have the genitals they'd expect, or even that their partner had deceived them to preserve this misunderstanding in order to mislead them into continuing with the sexual contact.To be angry about this would be, in your mind, totally atypical?

[Cekoviu]

It's completely disproportionate and shouldn't even anger a normal human.

What part of being tricked into having sex with someone shouldn't anger you? Or am I missing something here?

You're not being "tricked" into having sex with someone. You're consensually having sex with someone, then they tell you something fairly inconsequential about themselves (that may have even been obvious) that you didn't know before.

[Des-Bal]

You're not being "tricked" into having sex with someone. You're consensually having sex with someone, then they tell you something fairly inconsequential about themselves (that may have even been obvious) that you didn't know before.

How is it inconsequential? Don't you think most people care about the genitals of their sexual partners?

[Cekoviu]

Nor do you or Proctopeo, friendo.

Have either of us called for ownership? We've offered explanations for why the term isn't a slur rather than just insisting that our membership to whatever classification meant we got to dictate was and was not offensive.

You've offered your personal interpretation of the word as not being offensive and that thus extends to everyone, lmao.

That's true - for murder/assault cases where the defendant can't prove that they're innocent, I've seen defense attorneys go for a lighter sentence by saying it was a crime of passion (even when it wasn't).
However. If somebody whom you had sex with does not have the genitals you prefer, that in no way, shape, or form is a reasonable defense for murder or assault. It's completely disproportionate and shouldn't even anger a normal human.

You're saying that the typical person would not be angered by the revelation that their partner did not have the genitals they'd expect,

They shouldn't be.

or even that their partner had deceived them to preserve this misunderstanding in order to mislead them into continuing with the sexual contact.

Because that's definitely what happens all the time.

[The Rich Port]

You're not being "tricked" into having sex with someone. You're consensually having sex with someone, then they tell you something fairly inconsequential about themselves (that may have even been obvious) that you didn't know before.

How is it inconsequential? Don't you think most people care about the genitals of their sexual partners?

As a drunken hedonist with extensive experience in this, I can authoritatively say, no.

"But Rich Port, most people aren't drunken hedonists"

College students are a fairly significant population.

[Cekoviu]

You're not being "tricked" into having sex with someone. You're consensually having sex with someone, then they tell you something fairly inconsequential about themselves (that may have even been obvious) that you didn't know before.

How is it inconsequential? Don't you think most people care about the genitals of their sexual partners?

Sure, most people probably care, but it's hardly something that makes a big difference in their life if they have a one night stand with somebody not matching their preference.

[The Rich Port]

How is it inconsequential? Don't you think most people care about the genitals of their sexual partners?

Sure, most people probably care, but it's hardly something that makes a big difference in their life if they have a one night stand with somebody not matching their preference.

Just like Granny Rich Port always told me, "a hole is a hole. They have many uses just by design, from hiding in them to grinding hay down in them."

[Drongonia]

The idea of having sex with someone with different genitals than you expect (if it wasn't obvious) and only finding out afterwards is an act of having your sexuality manipulated. The person who was being told something "fairly inconsequential" just had sex with essentially a different person than they thought.

If beforehand she says she's a woman, or is at least looking/acting in such a way that you'd expect her to be one, and you find out she's transgender, non-binary or anything else afterwards, you just had your sexuality manipulated. If anyone would know the harm that could do, I'd have thought it'd be the LGBT community or members of it.

EDIT: Personally, I don't care sexually, any hole's a goal. But I'd still be angry that I'd been lied to or at the very least decieved.

[Proctopeo]

Oh, I forgot that cis people got to define what is or isn't offensive to trans people. My bad.

You can decide to be offended by anything but what is and is not a slur isn't something you get special ownership over.

Well, you see, the parts of groups that decide what is and isn't offensive are completely arbitrary.
Therefore, two certain six-letter words aren't offensive, or even slurs, because many gay people and black people don't see them as offensive. QED

Real talk, though, it really is a small group who consider "trap" an offensive word, they just tend to have large cult followings on Youtube and/or Twitter, so it looks like there are more of them than there really are. And their reasons for calling it offensive tend to be particularly weak, citing things unrelated to the word itself as "proof".

Once a person told a friend of mine that "trap" was offensive because they were called "goober" once. No fucking joke. It still baffles us to this day.

Copypasted twice, apparently.

Also, trap is a slur, since it is a derogatory term that feeds into the transphobic myth that trans women "trap"/"trick"/"deceive" cishet men. Its like calling Jewish people "International financiers".

Well first of all trap is typically applied to men who crossdress convincingly or are especially feminine not transgender women. I think Bridget of Guilty Gear is probably the best example and Bridget despite being raised as a girl was not transgender. The "trap" is "that lady is in fact a dude."

Yeah, I said this earlier. Typically it's anime boys who look like girls (Astolfo is the most clear-cut example, but a personal example is Trial Captain Ilima), but it is also used as a term of self-identification for either effeminate-looking crossdressing men or, yes, trans women.

[Des-Bal]

You've offered your personal interpretation of the word as not being offensive and that thus extends to everyone, lmao.


They shouldn't be.

Because that's definitely what happens all the time.

You have now explained how presenting an opinion works. Here's what I think, here's why I think it, and here's why you should think it too. Contrast this to saying "this is a matter of pure fiat and the arbiters shall be selected by their gender."

But they are and you have not denied this is normal. You can argue people shouldn't get mad about anything but they do. And if they do then that's all that really matters to roll it up with heat of passion.

Again, nobody's talking about how common it is except for people who seem uncomfortable about acknowledging the behavior as wrong.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

It's completely disproportionate and shouldn't even anger a normal human.

What part of being tricked into having sex with someone shouldn't anger you? Or am I missing something here?

Be as angry as you want but don't bloody kill them.

[Des-Bal]

Sure, most people probably care, but it's hardly something that makes a big difference in their life if they have a one night stand with somebody not matching their preference.

But we've established they care. That's what matters.

[The Rich Port]

You can decide to be offended by anything but what is and is not a slur isn't something you get special ownership over.

Well, you see, the parts of groups that decide what is and isn't offensive are completely arbitrary.
Therefore, two certain six-letter words aren't offensive, or even slurs, because many gay people and black people don't see them as offensive. QED

Real talk, though, it really is a small group who consider "trap" an offensive word, they just tend to have large cult followings on Youtube and/or Twitter, so it looks like there are more of them than there really are. And their reasons for calling it offensive tend to be particularly weak, citing things unrelated to the word itself as "proof".

Once a person told a friend of mine that "trap" was offensive because they were called "goober" once. No fucking joke. It still baffles us to this day.

Well first of all trap is typically applied to men who crossdress convincingly or are especially feminine not transgender women. I think Bridget of Guilty Gear is probably the best example and Bridget despite being raised as a girl was not transgender. The "trap" is "that lady is in fact a dude."

Yeah, I said this earlier. Typically it's anime boys who look like girls (Astolfo is the most clear-cut example, but a personal example is Trial Captain Ilima), but it is also used as a term of self-identification for either effeminate-looking crossdressing men or, yes, trans women.

I think it's just polite to not call people something if they politely ask you not to.

Sure, most people don't use trap derogatorily, but there are enough cowardly bigots that do that people are re-analyzing what it means.

While it's important to be accepting, we also have to respect people's boundaries.

[Drongonia]

What part of being tricked into having sex with someone shouldn't anger you? Or am I missing something here?

Be as angry as you want but don't bloody kill them.

Of course, I just take issue with "normal people" apparently not minding. It's not a motive for murder at all.

[Des-Bal]

Be as angry as you want but don't bloody kill them.

You should almost never kill people, it's very rarely a correct thing to do. We're talking about situations where the killing totally should not have happened, where it is literally so inappropriate that the person responsible for it should be sent to jail.

[Novus America]

Well no, not really. A murder committed in the heat of passion without a period for cooling off lacks an element of premeditation and it's typically sentenced differently. Walking in on your wife in bed with someone else and shooting her is murder but walking in on your wife, leaving, and shooting her next week is worse.

That's true - for murder/assault cases where the defendant can't prove that they're innocent, I've seen defense attorneys go for a lighter sentence by saying it was a crime of passion (even when it wasn't).
However. If somebody whom you had sex with does not have the genitals you prefer, that in no way, shape, or form is a reasonable defense for murder or assault. It's completely disproportionate and shouldn't even anger a normal human.

Well it should be noted it is more a mitigating factor than a defense.
You still go to prison for third degree murder/voluntary manslaughter.

But you do make a valid point, I do not think “gay panic” should be considered enough provocation for third degree murder/involuntary manslaughter.

Unlike killing someone for punching you or finding someone in your bed with your spouse, you choose to have sex with someone.
When choosing to have sex with someone you are assuming that “risk”.

In the other cases it is not generally something you choose to get into.

Also in the case of Gwen Araujo it was grossly misused.
Even if you accept “gay panic” is enough to cause an nearly uncontrollable violent rage, that was still, clearly, indisputably first degree murder.

[The Rich Port]

The idea of having sex with someone with different genitals than you expect (if it wasn't obvious) and only finding out afterwards is an act of having your sexuality manipulated. The person who was being told something "fairly inconsequential" just had sex with essentially a different person than they thought.

If beforehand she says she's a woman, or is at least looking/acting in such a way that you'd expect her to be one, and you find out she's transgender, non-binary or anything else afterwards, you just had your sexuality manipulated. If anyone would know the harm that could do, I'd have thought it'd be the LGBT community or members of it.

EDIT: Personally, I don't care sexually, any hole's a goal. But I'd still be angry that I'd been lied to or at the very least decieved.

... Which yeah.

How does one find out what the genitals are.

AFTER?

Is there some kind of stealth technology that hides something so painfully obvious, or did you mean right before?

[Proctopeo]

Well, you see, the parts of groups that decide what is and isn't offensive are completely arbitrary.
Therefore, two certain six-letter words aren't offensive, or even slurs, because many gay people and black people don't see them as offensive. QED

Real talk, though, it really is a small group who consider "trap" an offensive word, they just tend to have large cult followings on Youtube and/or Twitter, so it looks like there are more of them than there really are. And their reasons for calling it offensive tend to be particularly weak, citing things unrelated to the word itself as "proof".

Once a person told a friend of mine that "trap" was offensive because they were called "goober" once. No fucking joke. It still baffles us to this day.


Yeah, I said this earlier. Typically it's anime boys who look like girls (Astolfo is the most clear-cut example, but a personal example is Trial Captain Ilima), but it is also used as a term of self-identification for either effeminate-looking crossdressing men or, yes, trans women.

I think it's just polite to not call people something if they politely ask you not to.

Sure, most people don't use trap derogatorily, but there are enough cowardly bigots that do that people are re-analyzing what it means.

While it's important to be accepting, we also have to respect people's boundaries.

There's a difference between "don't call me this word" and "don't EVER use this word because I demand you don't!". Typically it isn't the former. And I wouldn't use it in reference to someone if they haven't used it in reference to themselves anyway.

[Drongonia]

The idea of having sex with someone with different genitals than you expect (if it wasn't obvious) and only finding out afterwards is an act of having your sexuality manipulated. The person who was being told something "fairly inconsequential" just had sex with essentially a different person than they thought.

If beforehand she says she's a woman, or is at least looking/acting in such a way that you'd expect her to be one, and you find out she's transgender, non-binary or anything else afterwards, you just had your sexuality manipulated. If anyone would know the harm that could do, I'd have thought it'd be the LGBT community or members of it.

EDIT: Personally, I don't care sexually, any hole's a goal. But I'd still be angry that I'd been lied to or at the very least decieved.

... Which yeah.

How does one find out what the genitals are.

AFTER?

Is there some kind of stealth technology that hides something so painfully obvious, or did you mean right before?

I mean... what if I was blind? Or she just said "I want to do it with you putting this blindfold on" or some other kinky shit like that? I mean, people do that sort of thing, that's why this debate exists.