do capitalists want to be slapped?

[GlobalControl]

In the case of Finland and Norway, as well as Switzerland which if I recall does require it, it's typically because the size of their nations requires they do it to be able to properly resist attacks by foreign entities in some capacity, because the size of their proper military is rather small, much like their populations.

The dictatorship of the proletariat should do so for the same reason.

I thought that the dictatorship of the Proletariat, with all the worlds resources, wouldn't need to sacrifice the lives of the proletariat to defend the gains of the Revolution, because it can produce all the tanks, APCs, helicopters and jets it needs to defend said gains?

[Technocratic Uganda]

The dictatorship of the proletariat should do so for the same reason.

I thought that the dictatorship of the Proletariat, with all the worlds resources, wouldn't need to sacrifice the lives of the proletariat to defend the gains of the Revolution, because it can produce all the tanks, APCs, helicopters and jets it needs to defend said gains?

Porky sacrifices his sons' and heirs' lives in war when he can't have them dodge the draft.

[Socialist Workers Combine]

I thought that the dictatorship of the Proletariat, with all the worlds resources, wouldn't need to sacrifice the lives of the proletariat to defend the gains of the Revolution, because it can produce all the tanks, APCs, helicopters and jets it needs to defend said gains?

You’re probably right but you should keep the gun just in case.

[GlobalControl]

I thought that the dictatorship of the Proletariat, with all the worlds resources, wouldn't need to sacrifice the lives of the proletariat to defend the gains of the Revolution, because it can produce all the tanks, APCs, helicopters and jets it needs to defend said gains?

You’re probably right but you should keep the gun just in case.

If something overwhelms a global super-military I don't think the gun will matter.

[Lost Memories]

Norway is an example of having lots of oil, lots of land, and little population to share the gains over.

Put the Norwegian system in any other national context, with no big rich natural reserves to exploit, and a population density higher than a snowy forest, and it would crash hard.

Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, some of the Baltics, etc...

Aren't they all the same? That's my point.
They all have ridiculous low population density. (yeah, don't go forgetting Denmark can mine minerals off Greenland)

Apply the Norvegian economic system over Nigeria, or USA, or Germany, then let's talk about how Scandinavia's aren't good models to compare to.
As all the Scandinavia's nations social and economy are tuned on their particular conditions, very low population density, lots of free space to exploit, with related natural resources, making them exceptions and not reliable models to be replicated.

You could make the same reasoning for Switzerland, it would be so good if all the world could be like Switzerland, filthy rich and developed like Switzerland, but there is one hindrance, not all the world can be a banking tax haven at the same time.

If there is one place, which could possibly make use of adopting Norvegian economic system, as it has proportionally similar stats, it would be Russia.
Norvegia is a smaller version of Russia, by population distribution over all the landmass. Sure the difference of size is a major difficulty, which would still pose problems to adapt the Norvegian system without some fixes specific to Russia, as governing a city is not as hard as governing a nation, there a lot of issues which become relevant only the bigger a nation gets.

[Sneudal]

Not sure if they want to, but they should be.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

And when there is suddenly an unlimited government in place without any checks or balances? I cant see corruption becoming a thing with that type of system at all.

Assuming it is “unlimited government”, you’re supposed to oversee it with modern law and administration in addition to worker’s councils, the latter being an addition to further decrease any such possibility. One should also train the proletariat in any such administrative operations, in order to dissolve any independent bureaucracy.

And even when this proletariat is trained to do this, that does not suddenly make human flaws go away. Corruption, greed, and furthering ones own position are still factors. Not to mention that the dictatorship phase is vague in how long it is supposed to last, even according to Marx himself if I remember, so there is still the chance that the transition fails to materialize and the one in power refuses to give up the position.

[Autonomous Cleaner Bot Cleaners]

The idea runs that the capitalist class wants you to have no labour standards, low taxes low wage etc,. But what it the opposite is true? What if they actually want to be slapped? The last time they provided a living wage tax was 90-70% after given amount and they were competing with the Soviet Union, the economy and you could get a house, car and college.

Note that China has lower standards, but US is still ahead of China (except Macao).
Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.

The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, a prosperous capitalist welfare state and social democracy country featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. Public health care in Norway is free (after an annual charge of around 2000 kroner for those over 16), and parents have 46 weeks paid parental leave. 9.5% of the population aged 18–66 receive a disability pension and 30% of the labour force are employed by the government, the highest in the OECD. The hourly productivity levels, as well as average hourly wages in Norway, are among the highest in the world.

The egalitarian values of Norwegian society have kept the wage difference between the lowest paid worker and the CEO of most companies as much less than in comparable western economies. The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DNB), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). Through these big companies, the government controls approximately 30% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. When non-listed companies are included, the state has even higher share in ownership (mainly from direct oil licence ownership).

which method is better: work sweatshop for nothing, or slap them silly?

I thought it was simpler than that: the evil capitalists institute the welfare state to keep the workers satiated just enough to stave off the Glorious Revolution.

I mean, as long as my owner keeps my charging station plugged in, it's hardly in my interests to kill him in his sleep, yeah?

[Vetalia]

I thought it was simpler than that: the evil capitalists institute the welfare state to keep the workers satiated just enough to stave off the Glorious Revolution.

I mean, as long as my owner keeps my charging station plugged in, it's hardly in my interests to kill him in his sleep, yeah?

That was the Otto von Bismarck strategy, it worked out quite well.

[Technocratic Uganda]

I thought it was simpler than that: the evil capitalists institute the welfare state to keep the workers satiated just enough to stave off the Glorious Revolution.

I mean, as long as my owner keeps my charging station plugged in, it's hardly in my interests to kill him in his sleep, yeah?

That was the Otto von Bismarck strategy, it worked out quite well.

don't do it too fast though or you'll get dismantled in a great war and the militancy from butthurt whoevers will culminate in a massive uprising that demolishes what little prestige you had left
at least that's what the AI seems to do in my games

[The Emerald Legion]

The threat of violence is the only thing that keeps humanity in general in line, this is true for all groups. When a democracy falls to oligarchy, state violence will never turn on them no matter how excessive their anti-social behavior. An external threat of violence (And an external force moving to organize internal revolt) keeps them in line.

The capitalists believe they have successfully removed all threat of violence against them, and so there is no need to be a part of society and constrained by its rules anymore.

That's a rather absurd statement to make about America.

[Vetalia]

don't do it too fast though or you'll get dismantled in a great war and the militancy from butthurt whoevers will culminate in a massive uprising that demolishes what little prestige you had left
at least that's what the AI seems to do in my games

Funny you mention that because I'm playing a Victoria 2 game as Germany right now...

[The Black Party]

I'm on board for this, this is one of the "right" reasons, ya?

*backhands black party, referring to him as a Nazi pig dog*

Auuauah-AHAaaahhh~ really pulling a powerplay on me here

[Technocratic Uganda]

don't do it too fast though or you'll get dismantled in a great war and the militancy from butthurt whoevers will culminate in a massive uprising that demolishes what little prestige you had left
at least that's what the AI seems to do in my games

Funny you mention that because I'm playing a Victoria 2 game as Germany right now...

Are you at least not playing with vanilla? (HPM or HFM or something)

[Vetalia]

(Image)

Are you at least not playing with vanilla? (HPM or HFM or something)

No man, Persian or Greek plays vanilla V2!

I'm using Concert of Europe II: Gloria as my mod.

[Technocratic Uganda]

(Image)

Are you at least not playing with vanilla? (HPM or HFM or something)

No man, Persian or Greek plays vanilla V2!

I'm using Concert of Europe II: Gloria as my mod.

thank god
you can never be sure with people

[USS Monitor]

Those professionals already exist. Just think less incense and more leather...

Leather-clad meditation gurus. *nods*

Where do I sign up for this job?

[Socialist Workers Combine]

And even when this proletariat is trained to do this, that does not suddenly make human flaws go away. Corruption, greed, and furthering ones own position are still factors.

These are not serious issues in modern states, let alone worker’s self-managed organizations.
Excepting Kentucky or course.

Not to mention that the dictatorship phase is vague in how long it is supposed to last, even according to Marx himself if I remember, so there is still the chance that the transition fails to materialize and the one in power refuses to give up the position.

It’s a dictatorship or the proletariat, not an individual. Stalinism was not a dictatorship or the proletariat.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

And even when this proletariat is trained to do this, that does not suddenly make human flaws go away. Corruption, greed, and furthering ones own position are still factors.

These are not serious issues in modern states, let alone worker’s self-managed organizations.
Excepting Kentucky or course.

Not to mention that the dictatorship phase is vague in how long it is supposed to last, even according to Marx himself if I remember, so there is still the chance that the transition fails to materialize and the one in power refuses to give up the position.

It’s a dictatorship or the proletariat, not an individual. Stalinism was not a dictatorship or the proletariat.

Once again you sound incredibly naive and are basically saying "oh that just wont be a thing dont worry" without actually explaining how or why that is the case, and how somehow this time it is going to be completely infallible and immune to any issues. Corruption amd human flaws are still very much a thing even in modern states, especially in the aftermath of this hypothetical revolution. Still not convinced that a dictatorship, of the proletariat or otherwise, will not somehow be vulnerable to degenerate into cronyism and corruption, and give rise to an elite few, or even eventually one, just as it always happens when you look at the record.

[Socialist Workers Combine]

Once again you sound incredibly naive and are basically saying "oh that just wont be a thing dont worry" without actually explaining how or why that is the case, and how somehow this time it is going to be completely infallible and immune to any issues.

If you don’t want a bureaucratic dictatorship then you want society to be dominated by civil society, such as workers councils. That is what I generally advocate. Not that you can’t have any state organizations but that they are dominated by civil society.

The Soviet Union has some worker’s councils but was devestated by the civil war. It had little proletariat to speak of in the first place, it was dominated by peasants. The bureaucracy actually preceded the development of the proletariat as a necessary condition for it’s establishment through the amassment and expenditure of capital in the reproduction of heavy industry.

It was a pre-modern economy. It could not be a worker’s state because it did in the first place have a modern proletarian economy, though perhaps it could have transitioned to one. The Soviet economy basically slowed down after it finished moving people from agriculture to industry, and they never really made the leap to consumer products.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Once again you sound incredibly naive and are basically saying "oh that just wont be a thing dont worry" without actually explaining how or why that is the case, and how somehow this time it is going to be completely infallible and immune to any issues.

If you don’t want a bureaucratic dictatorship then you want society to be dominated by civil society, such as workers councils. That is what I generally advocate. Not that you can’t have any state organizations but that they are dominated by civil society.

The Soviet Union has some worker’s councils but was devestated by the civil war. It had little proletariat to speak of in the first place, it was dominated by peasants. The bureaucracy actually preceded the development of the proletariat as a necessary condition for it’s establishment through the amassment and expenditure of capital in the reproduction of heavy industry.

It was a pre-modern economy.

However these councils are dominated by regular people with very little accountability to the rest of the country in practicality. That seems to leave alot of room for corruption and cronyism, no matter how much training or some such they receive. I mean how large is the proletariat in say, the modern United states or western European countries? These economies are now dominated heavily by services and other industries, so how is the situation any better now in regards to the size of the proletariat than then? I hardly think a dictatorship made up solely by around only 15-20% of the country and only serves their interests is destined to prosper and have widespread support.

I suppose some outside manufacturing and such can be considered a modern proletariat, but I feel things are much different and not nearly as black and white as they were in the 1840s or 1917.

[Socialist Workers Combine]

However these councils are dominated by regular people with very little accountability to the rest of the country in practicality.

They need to coordinate their activities horizontally and through a central organization. In Russia they actually established such an organization on their own, as Maurice Brinton points out, but it was kiboshed by Lenin, and the workers were essentially bonded to the trade unions and planned economy. I think it would be better to experiment with the former option. We’ll work it out.

That seems to leave alot of room for corruption and cronyism, no matter how much training or some such they receive.

I think you’re exaggerating your case. The people are closer to the people and can be held accountable by the people, more than in a bureaucracy which, in the United States, is not democratically accountable. Not that one shouldn’t use administrative methods in the handling of personnel.

I mean how large is the proletariat in say, the modern United states or western European countries? These economies are now dominated heavily by services and other industries, so how is the situation any better now in regards to the size of the proletariat than then?

I don’t see why many of these people cannot be considered essentially proletarian.
Medical services are hardly Wall Street even if the insurance industry should be kiboshed.
Doctors would probably be counted among the ranks of the workers.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

However these councils are dominated by regular people with very little accountability to the rest of the country in practicality.

They need to coordinate their activities horizontally and through a central organization. In Russia they actually established such an organization on their own, as Maurice Brinton points out, but it was kiboshed by Lenin, and the workers were essentially bonded to the trade unions and planned economy. I think it would be better to experiment with the former option. We’ll work it out.

I am still not really seeing the accountability to the people. From what I am gathering they are accountable to themselves horizontally, and to a central authority. Which....sounds exactly like a government that has little accountability and does in fact leave a lot of room for cronyism as I have brought up. What is stopping these councils from just working with each other to advance themselves and work together to acheive this? Still not seeing how this is the infallable system you keep trying to make it out to be. Hell, it is sounding more and more like the opposite. This whole sentiment of "eh, its totally fine it will all work out" also really doesn't fill me with any more confidence and seems to fit right into the vague "oh it wont go bad THIS time, just don't worry" tone that has been set up to this point.

I think you’re exaggerating your case. The people are closer to the people and can be held accountable by the people, more than in a bureaucracy which, in the United States, is not democratically accountable. Not that one shouldn’t use administrative methods in the handling of personnel.

How am I the one exaggerating? The point you made is that there is utterly no way that this system you are advocating has any weakness or danger to falling into corruption or degenerating as before. I am merely pointing out ways that this is certainly not the case. If anyone is exaggerating anything, it is you and your belief that no bad will happen and everyone will be perfect human beings and forget all of their flaws and temptations simply because a revolution happened.

Plus, how is this system you are advocating not just a different form of bureaucracy, albeit painted red? Seeing as how while yes, the council members may be elected by the people, but then they have free reign to do whatever after that stage, and are only accountable and limited to themselves and then to a central authority, which also is not constrained, seeing as how it is a dictatorship? This sounds exactly like a form of bureaucracy, that if anything has even less transparency and free reign than the one you are denouncing. I am still failing to see how there is absolutely no room for any sort of mismanagement, cronyism, corruption, or human flaws in this system that would lead to its outright failure or devolution into a Soviet Style form of government.

I don’t see why many of these people cannot be considered essentially proletarian.
Medical services are hardly Wall Street even if the insurance industry should be kiboshed.
Doctors would probably be counted among the ranks of the workers.

You sort of just proved my point. How are doctors and, say, janitors, all that similar? You use proletarian here as some sort of vague and nebulous term that implies they are going to be united in their goals and problems, but in the modern day, how could that possibly be the case when they range from sewer sanitation workers all the way to doctors, or even lawyers? How is this modern proletariat supposed to be united in its leadership and goals when it is made up of vastly different fields and professions that often times have completely different concerns, salaries, roles, and interests? The proletariat of a century or two ago was far more uniform and far less diversified, and when it came to economic and social class, were very closer together, and it made sense that they had a relative commonality in their condition and place in society, and could find commonality too in their methods, goals, and development. That is far from the case in the modern day, where now the proletariat is anywhere from minimum wage, clearly low class individuals to high earning, specialists in the medical field who are very clearly upper class or at the lowest, upper middle class. How in the world is it possible to find common ground between these great differences?

[Socialist Workers Combine]

I am still not really seeing the accountability to the people.

???
The worker’s councils are the people.

What is stopping these councils from just working with each other to advance themselves and work together to acheive this.

You might take a look at Mondragon. These aren’t necessarily separate organizations to begin with. But If I’m making toothbrushes and you’re making coffee it doesn’t really make sense for me to try to aggrandize my interests against yours.

Even in terms of economic planning you have to somehow excuse yourself as being a particular caste of worker. See how well that flies - someone else can just learn your job. In fact, Marx kind of suggested people do multiple lines of work just for personal pleasure.

Still not seeing how this is the infallable system you keep trying to make it out to be.

Capitalism has no issues I take it.

How am I the one exaggerating? The point you made is that there is utterly no way that this system you are advocating has any weakness or danger to falling into corruption or degenerating as before.

Neither the USSR or China actually had a proletariat, they were created by said states.
They didn’t entirely “go wrong”, so much as they didn’t have a proletarian base to begin with.

I am merely pointing out ways that this is certainly not the case. If anyone is exaggerating anything, it is you and your belief that no bad will happen and everyone will be perfect human beings and forget all of their flaws and temptations simply because a revolution happened.

I am confident you will make a better steward than the representatives of infinite greed.

Plus, how is this system you are advocating not just a different form of bureaucracy, albeit painted red? Seeing as how while yes, the council members may be elected by the people, but then they have free reign to do whatever after that stage, and are only accountable and limited to themselves and then to a central authority, which also is not constrained, seeing as how it is a dictatorship?

Assuming you need to appoint someone you can revoke them at any time.
And you should probably take turns at it.

FYI worker’s council refers first of all to the factory committee.
Here in the United Stares we also have neighborhood committees.

This sounds exactly like a form of bureaucracy, that if anything has even less transparency and free reign than the one you are denouncing.

I am not sure why you think We The People would be less transparent with each other or be unable to follow procedure. Even cooperatives have procedure.

How is this modern proletariat supposed to be united in its leadership and goals when it is made up of vastly different fields and professions that often times have completely different concerns, salaries, roles, and interests?

Their interests aren’t really different, they’re part of the same economy.
It falls to you to run that economy. The capitalists cannot really do it for you.

[Aclion]

spank me daddy