The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Nea Byzantia]

Oh yeah, then how does Catholicism recover from this type of shit?

Why should the Catholic Church recover from "this type of shit"?

I'm Eastern Orthodox so I'm not exactly rooting for Rome either. I'm just saying, I think things will get very ugly in the Catholic World in the near future; as if they haven't. I'm just wondering when most Catholics will realize Francis is a Heretic.

[Munkcestrian Republic]

Why should the Catholic Church recover from "this type of shit"?

I'm Eastern Orthodox so I'm not exactly rooting for Rome either. I'm just saying, I think things will get very ugly in the Catholic World in the near future; as if they haven't. I'm just wondering when most Catholics will realize Francis is a Heretic.

I am (unfortunately) a Catholic and I don't like him.

[Nea Byzantia]

I'm Eastern Orthodox so I'm not exactly rooting for Rome either. I'm just saying, I think things will get very ugly in the Catholic World in the near future; as if they haven't. I'm just wondering when most Catholics will realize Francis is a Heretic.

I am (unfortunately) a Catholic and I don't like him.

Ah. So what's the solution?

[Diopolis]

I think this is a good time to ask: if a Pope is heretical is there a protocol to remove him from office\/

No.

The correct answer is kind of, technically no, but yes, there is.
An ecumenical council- or subsequent pope- can rule that Pope Francis has deposed himself. It’s happened exactly once before that an ecumenical council ruled a pope not the pope: or more precisely, 2 popes not the pope. There’s also the example of Honorius I being subsequently ruled not the true pope during part of his reign.

[Nea Byzantia]

No.

The correct answer is kind of, technically no, but yes, there is.
An ecumenical council- or subsequent pope- can rule that Pope Francis has deposed himself. It’s happened exactly once before that an ecumenical council ruled a pope not the pope: or more precisely, 2 popes not the pope. There’s also the example of Honorius I being subsequently ruled not the true pope during part of his reign.

Yeah, but that's back when Rome was Orthodox...before they split away; before the Pope proclaimed himself Head of the Church, or Infallible. Given all that baggage, I don't see how there's any way for the Catholic Church to deal with Francis other than to walk back some of those things; which would essentially be an admission of Heresy.

[Lost Memories]

Belief is born from self-discipline. Discipline is the application of education.
Education not meant as learning notions, but as upbringing through kindness.

No it isn't. Belief is an obligate condition determined by the best understanding of the facts.

It takes no self-discipline to believe that the sky is blue. Or, well, gray today. But you get the idea.

Christian discussion thread --> talks about belief --> what could that mean? maybe christian belief?
what is christian belief? believing the sky is blue? no, it's belief that god is love (can't actually be communicated)

Christian belief, or faith, can't be instructed, can't be taught, nor communicated. The acts from faith are visible, like charity, kindness and hope, etc. But faith itself can't be communicated.
So how people can get faith? From self-discipline, which is the mean to let faith develop or uncover, like the act of polishing a raw stone to make a gem surface, or cleaning a mirror to make it reflect with clearness. Can discipline be acquired from others? No again, discipline is an act, which requires the person willingness to act.
How then can discipline be acquired? From education, which is upbringing through kindness, most importantly as it also gives the motivation to look for faith, but it's also study and understanding of the successes and failure of others, study of revelations and what meaning do they carry. Can education be communicated? Yes, church services are moments of education, as it is catechism and other forms of religious study.

Religious education is the basis, upon which discipline is built, which ultimately leads to developing faith.
Religious education can be communicated and taught, but the following steps of applying discipline, and then searching faith, are all on the person.

A person full of education but without willingness to put that education to use, is going to be as faithless as someone without any education.
Similarly someone receiving an incorrect education, or no education at all, is going to apply their discipline on wrong basis (if they're going to exercise discipline at all), which misguided discipline isn't going to lead them to faith, but elsewhere.

So while religious education isn't the same as faith, education is still a vital first step to reach faith.
Mistakes done during education can be very damaging of the person development (religious development, but it also applies in general)

[Diopolis]

The correct answer is kind of, technically no, but yes, there is.
An ecumenical council- or subsequent pope- can rule that Pope Francis has deposed himself. It’s happened exactly once before that an ecumenical council ruled a pope not the pope: or more precisely, 2 popes not the pope. There’s also the example of Honorius I being subsequently ruled not the true pope during part of his reign.

Yeah, but that's back when Rome was Orthodox...before they split away; before the Pope proclaimed himself Head of the Church, or Infallible. Given all that baggage, I don't see how there's any way for the Catholic Church to deal with Francis other than to walk back some of those things; which would essentially be an admission of Heresy.

If you’re referring to papal infallibility, it’s very difficult for that to apply unless in writing. If you’re referring to papal supremacy, that was officially promulgated hundreds of years before pope John XXIII I.

[United Muscovite Nations]

No.

The correct answer is kind of, technically no, but yes, there is.
An ecumenical council- or subsequent pope- can rule that Pope Francis has deposed himself. It’s happened exactly once before that an ecumenical council ruled a pope not the pope: or more precisely, 2 popes not the pope. There’s also the example of Honorius I being subsequently ruled not the true pope during part of his reign.

According to Vatican I, ecumenical councils cannot judge the pontiff.

[Tarsonis]

Owes its roots to the Christian humanism movement though

Humanism is inherently unChristian; so maybe on the surface, yes, but in reality, no.

Well secular humanism is yes, as it’s atheism. (Christian) humanism is a school of Christian thought going back hundreds of years.

[Lower Nubia]

I believe Christian atheism is the ideology of atheists who supports Christian morals and maybe even supports the existence of a church group.

So secular humanists

I’d say they actively disavow any Christian quality to their movement.

[Tarsonis]

So secular humanists

I’d say they actively disavow any Christian quality to their movement.

Sure but their movement is 95% borrowed capital from Christianity

[Lower Nubia]

The correct answer is kind of, technically no, but yes, there is.
An ecumenical council- or subsequent pope- can rule that Pope Francis has deposed himself. It’s happened exactly once before that an ecumenical council ruled a pope not the pope: or more precisely, 2 popes not the pope. There’s also the example of Honorius I being subsequently ruled not the true pope during part of his reign.

According to Vatican I, ecumenical councils cannot judge the pontiff.

In Catholicism doesn’t the means by which a council become ecumenical is that it has affirmation by a pope?

[United Muscovite Nations]

According to Vatican I, ecumenical councils cannot judge the pontiff.

In Catholicism doesn’t the means by which a council become excumenical is that it has affirmation by a pope?

Yes.

[The Spectre-]

I christian.

[Salus Maior]

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1180108810637193218
Latest news from the amazon synod. This is legitimately scary stuff.
I mean, i’d Previously thought for sure it’d produce a mid-length Tolstoy novel of nonsense, and nothing more, but pagan ceremonies on the Vatican grounds are not a good sign.

This is bloody stupid.

And here I thought those in the Vatican couldn't get more profoundly disappointing.

[Patek Philipe]

That sounds really trippy How can that argument be made?

Because there's not really any clear condemnations of it, and given the rates of suicide among people with gender dysphoria, it's clearly better they get the treatment. The big issue after that though is about marriage, and I'm really not theologically sound enough to make a judgement on that.

“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God."

[Lower Nubia]

In Catholicism doesn’t the means by which a council become excumenical is that it has affirmation by a pope?

Yes.

So isn’t it impossible for an ecumenical council to disavow a pope?

[Diopolis]

The correct answer is kind of, technically no, but yes, there is.
An ecumenical council- or subsequent pope- can rule that Pope Francis has deposed himself. It’s happened exactly once before that an ecumenical council ruled a pope not the pope: or more precisely, 2 popes not the pope. There’s also the example of Honorius I being subsequently ruled not the true pope during part of his reign.

According to Vatican I, ecumenical councils cannot judge the pontiff.

The council of Constance says hi.

[Lower Nubia]

According to Vatican I, ecumenical councils cannot judge the pontiff.

The council of Constance says hi.

Which surely would be usurped by Vatican I.

[Tarsonis]

Because there's not really any clear condemnations of it, and given the rates of suicide among people with gender dysphoria, it's clearly better they get the treatment. The big issue after that though is about marriage, and I'm really not theologically sound enough to make a judgement on that.

“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God."

Yes but there’s no specification as to what a woman’s garment or a man’s garment is.

[Diopolis]

The council of Constance says hi.

Which surely would be usurped by Vatican I.

Not how Catholicism works. For dogmatic issues the older ruling generally takes precedence.

[Lower Nubia]

Which surely would be usurped by Vatican I.

Not how Catholicism works. For dogmatic issues the older ruling generally takes precedence.

So you’re suggesting that Constance has precedence over Vatican I?

[Lost Memories]

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1180108810637193218
Latest news from the amazon synod. This is legitimately scary stuff.
I mean, i’d Previously thought for sure it’d produce a mid-length Tolstoy novel of nonsense, and nothing more, but pagan ceremonies on the Vatican grounds are not a good sign.

Do we have more details on what was actually going on there?

1) people praying some paternoster and hail mary with some of their traditional getup (that weird wood statue still stands out)
nothing too bad
2) people doing amazonian rite to mother earth, and other stuff, while being hosted in vatican by the pope, who's just watching with other cardinals and bystanders
pretty weird, wouldn't that desecrate the place? or was that garden neutral zone anyway, so no harm done? Sure inviting and having guests is nice, but this would be an excess of hospitality, if that has ever been a thing.

Would still wait for an official statement on all that. Hasn't there been any?


edit. found a longer video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6P39XswlzI

[Hakons]

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1180108810637193218
Latest news from the amazon synod. This is legitimately scary stuff.
I mean, i’d Previously thought for sure it’d produce a mid-length Tolstoy novel of nonsense, and nothing more, but pagan ceremonies on the Vatican grounds are not a good sign.

Do we have more details on what was actually going on there?

1) people praying some paternoster and hail mary with some of their traditional getup (that weird wood statue still stands out)
nothing too bad
2) people doing amazonian rite to mother earth, and other stuff, while being hosted in vatican by the pope, who's just watching with other cardinals and bystanders
pretty weird, wouldn't that desecrate the place? or was that garden neutral zone anyway, so no harm done? Sure inviting and having guests is nice, but this would be an excess of hospitality, if that has ever been a thing.

Would still wait for an official statement on all that. Hasn't there been any?


edit. found a longer video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6P39XswlzI

It's hard to frame this in a good light. Even if all the prayers were directed towards God, and not what appear to be pagan idols my goodness, it's still an inappropriate way for Catholics to pray. We don't lie prostrate in a circle towards objects. There's respecting native culture, and then there's not even trying to be Catholic. Catholicism isn't a flavoring we add to our respective cultures, but should lead and transform our culture. Of course, we don't know much about the group that was hosted, and if they even accurately represent Amazonian Catholics. They had to be gathered together, flown to the Vatican, and get a ceremony and program together, so they're obviously some kind of special interest.

In my eyes, this is obviously a stupid thing that the Vatican should not be hosting. It was either a pagan ceremony or an inappropriate ceremony. The good thing I see is that the Pope didn't participate much and neither did the Cardinals.

[Luminesa]

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1180108810637193218
Latest news from the amazon synod. This is legitimately scary stuff.
I mean, i’d Previously thought for sure it’d produce a mid-length Tolstoy novel of nonsense, and nothing more, but pagan ceremonies on the Vatican grounds are not a good sign.

This is bloody stupid.

And here I thought those in the Vatican couldn't get more profoundly disappointing.

Well if we’re not entirely sure even what they were praying to, all we can do is pray for the Vatican officials. The Devil wishes to cause division and despair among us. God will continue to carry the Church no matter what is happening.