Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Luminesa]

did you get the 85 mph winds?

25, large hail, and a tornado watch.

Ergh. Well, as long as you're okay.

[Ashmoria]

25 is rough enough. did anything get smashed? when we got baseball sized hail here a few years back all the cars and roofs in town were damaged.

Nah, just some tree branches. Thankfully the worst of it was around Dallas it seems. \o/

*shudder* I hate hail now. glad youre OK

[Lady Scylla]

When?

A loooooooong time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Except, Uncertainty is inherent to the universe. Simply knowing the path of every particles, would change their trajectories. Movement of matter is not necessarily predetermined, Heissenburg disproved Newton's theory.

Are you saying God doesn't know everything?

On the contrary, I'm saying that existence is chaotic and not predetermined by motion of the universe. It is bound only by linear time. God being an entity that transcends time, knows the entire history of time and space. However that doesn't preclude free will.

[United Muscovite Nations]

God isn't absent, and, by definition, cannot sin.

Also, I see mainly humans inflicting suffering there. And, actually, He didn't create this version of Earth. He created Earth, but we polluted it with sin. And He will eventually restore it to its proper state.

When?

The fall. This is all covered, whether literally or allegorically, in Genesis.

[Lady Scylla]

Nah, just some tree branches. Thankfully the worst of it was around Dallas it seems. \o/

*shudder* I hate hail now. glad youre OK

Hehe. I've survived a few tornadoes. Not worried about hail.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Reels like if I comment on this thread I'll have to defend that Mormons are Christians. xD

nah you can ignore the few bigots.

Somehow it's bigotry to use a certain definition of Christianity?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

1. Jealousy of the Ten Commandments is Covenantial language, invoking concepts of marriage. God is making a contract with Israel, and is demanding exclusivity. It's not what, we would characterizes as human emotions of jealousy.

I think that the more proper way to express God's "jealousy" (which I think the Bible translations' wording sucks at it to be fair, but this is a fault lying more on the messengers than on the message) is that God expects loyalty, and He is very demanding of it.

That doesn't necessarily imply that God is jealous, after all, he lets us do whatever the fuck we want anyways. But disloyalty does bring a price, either in life or in the afterlife.

precisely.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

When?

The fall. This is all covered, whether literally or allegorically, in Genesis.

An allegory is little use if it makes no sense. When was the fall, and whose fault was it? What was the world like before? What were the effects of this pollution?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

On the contrary, (Though I may have worded it poorly) I claimed her reasoning suggests she believes God to be equal to her. It's an inverse quality. She doesn't think overly highly of herself necessarily, but rather she doesn't consider God to be worthy of worship or following. She treats God the way she'd treat any other person. It's not an unfair criticism, it's literally what she was advocating.

Bitterness =/= hatred. One does not have to hatred in order to have a chip on ones shoulder.

Well, you could have said that in the first place, instead of saying, "You're just bitter because you're poor." That was totally uncalled for.

It would have been, if that's what I had said.

[Lost Memories]

*cough* Satan *cough*

Satan is a product of God. God knows all Satan does. God knew all Satan would do. If Satan can hide from God, God is clearly not all powerful, or God is deliberately turning a blind eye to malice..

Since we're playing "write your own story" here.
What if free will was different from perfection, but with the potential to develop into something as grand. But differently than perfection, which just is, free will requires trials, Satan was a trial to test the free will of the first humans. Imperfection is just a temporary state which allows free will to figure out the correct answer.

Free will and the goodness of God are necessary items to have any meaningful discussion, otherwise you're just not talking about christianity.

[Philjia]

Look, it's very simple:
1. Is the fucking appalling state of Earth part of a plan?
A) Yes. God's a twat.
B) No. (Go to 2)

2. Why didn't God prevent this?
A) He's not omnipotent.
B) God's a twat.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Nope, still poor. But other than that, yes I was fed up with the disparaging the dedication of thousands of man hours and resources to honor God, as a subtle mascaraed for non-catholics to clothe their personal disdain for the Catholic Church, so I joined the discussion. You're not unraveling some hidden agenda.

Boy, am I relieved then!

Sh*t, I didn't mean to relieve you, I don't want to stand post. Damnit.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Look, it's very simple:
1. Is the fucking appalling state of Earth part of a plan?
A) Yes. God's a twat.
B) No. (Go to 2)

2. Why didn't God prevent this?
A) He's not omnipotent.
B) God's a twat.

Mhmm

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog ... zy-atheist

[United Muscovite Nations]

Look, it's very simple:
1. Is the fucking appalling state of Earth part of a plan?
A) Yes. God's a twat.
B) No. (Go to 2)

2. Why didn't God prevent this?
A) He's not omnipotent.
B) God's a twat.

Or C) God allows us to make our own decisions.

[Philjia]

Are you saying God doesn't know everything?

On the contrary, I'm saying that existence is chaotic and not predetermined by motion of the universe. It is bound only by linear time. God being an entity that transcends time, knows the entire history of time and space. However that doesn't preclude free will.

Yes it does. He's omniscient. He knew what was going to happen as a result of his actions and chose to do them anyway.

Unless God has no free will either and is hamstrung by the predestination paradox.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

The fall. This is all covered, whether literally or allegorically, in Genesis.

An allegory is little use if it makes no sense. When was the fall, and whose fault was it? What was the world like before? What were the effects of this pollution?

I've penned a few papers (in my mind anyway) about the "Fall" being the rise of the Human Social Consciousness

[Dooplevinia]

nah you can ignore the few bigots.

Somehow it's bigotry to use a certain definition of Christianity?

No because there's only one definition of Christianity: "the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices." So to say Mormons aren't Christians is to deny them a place among others despite the fact that they believe in Jesus. It's as if you said that someone born in a country is a citizen. But then to say someone that was born in that country isn't a citizen because they wear red clothes, even though they have a birth certificate and a citizenship record. But simply because you don't like the color red you say they aren't a citizen. So yeah...By definition that kinda makes that person a bigot.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

On the contrary, I'm saying that existence is chaotic and not predetermined by motion of the universe. It is bound only by linear time. God being an entity that transcends time, knows the entire history of time and space. However that doesn't preclude free will.

Yes it does. He's omniscient. He knew what was going to happen as a result of his actions and chose to do them anyway.

Unless God has no free will either and is hamstrung by the predestination paradox.

All things being equal, does the fact that FDR is in a history book, mean he had no free will?

[Czechanada]

When?

The fall. This is all covered, whether literally or allegorically, in Genesis.

I thought that Original Sin wasn't a thing in Orthodox Christianity.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The fall. This is all covered, whether literally or allegorically, in Genesis.

I thought that Original Sin wasn't a thing in Orthodox Christianity.

I think you're thinking of Orthodox Judaism.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Look, it's very simple:
1. Is the fucking appalling state of Earth part of a plan?
A) Yes. God's a twat.
B) No. (Go to 2)

2. Why didn't God prevent this?
A) He's not omnipotent.
B) God's a twat.

This is an old and rehashed argument that seems to spring up every year.

That God could have, or should have, been able to prevent something would mean that God did not make humans with free will and that he can step in and influence human affairs at any given time.

Would God do so, would you accuse him of being a tyrant at the expense of an utopian society? I am asking this because you seem to believe that tyranny for the sake of utopianism is a perfectly viable solution.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Look, it's very simple:
1. Is the fucking appalling state of Earth part of a plan?
A) Yes. God's a twat.
B) No. (Go to 2)

2. Why didn't God prevent this?
A) He's not omnipotent.
B) God's a twat.

This is an old and rehashed argument that seems to spring up every year.

That God could have, or should have, been able to prevent something would mean that God did not make humans with free will and that he can step in and influence human affairs at any given time.

Would God do so, would you accuse him of being a tyrant at the expense of an utopian society? I am asking this because you seem to believe that tyranny for the sake of utopianism is a perfectly viable solution.

Summer's come early again. Someone must have said Richard Dawkins three times.

[Lost Memories]

Why are you asking him evidence? Isn't God's goodness part of its definition? Something which is "cruel" isn't God.

I wanted to know if he could defend his blasphemous claims.

Understandable.
I didn't take offence for what he said, or found it blasphemous, since he technically wasn't talking about God. So God wasn't blasphemed by what he said. The only thing which was blasphemed was his own made up version of it.
He was basically just arguing with himself, not about or to God.

[Eli Islands]

Somehow it's bigotry to use a certain definition of Christianity?

No because there's only one definition of Christianity: "the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices." So to say Mormons aren't Christians is to deny them a place among others despite the fact that they believe in Jesus. It's as if you said that someone born in a country is a citizen. But then to say someone that was born in that country isn't a citizen because they wear red clothes, even though they have a birth certificate and a citizenship record. But simply because you don't like the color red you say they aren't a citizen. So yeah...By definition that kinda makes that person a bigot.

but the book of mormon has nothing to do with Jesus or his teachings (unless I'm wrong I haven't read it in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong)