Abortion Debate- Fetuses, Periods, and Wanking

[Sivonaa]

Abortion is Abortion, you are aborting a human life when you choose that decision. Science states that from conception to natural death is a full human life, It does not matter weather or not it feels pain or not. It is a human life being developed. Every hour of every day until birth it is growing and starting to develop human characteristics. There for stopping that natural process is in my mind extremely wrong! In cases of rape I still think abortion should not be allowed, Was it the babies fault that he was concept ed no, so why should he be the one to take the fall? Some people say a fetus has not feeling or is not a real human yet. It is real as soon as sperm meets egg guys. The definition is as follows,"a fetus a developing mammal after the embryonic stage and before birth." So that would classify it as a human that is not fully developed yet. We all are not fully developed until around the age of 25. So what you people who are pro choice are really saying is its OK to murder this very small and completely innocent child. But if you kill a human with a gun on a street it is completely wrong. That makes no sense.


Finally,
It is extremely easy to avoid a situation where you would be given the option of abortion. Don't do it unless your absolutely committed to having a child. Using condoms or other things to prevent sperm from reaching the egg is also an alternative. My god people are so ignorant and lazy these days. Lets have sex and then just kill the baby. Completely wrong and un ethical!!! A child would be much better off alive then dead. I guarantee it.

[Tekania]

Abortion is Abortion, you are aborting a human life when you choose that decision. Science states that from conception to natural death is a full human life, It does not matter weather or not it feels pain or not. It is a human life being developed. Every hour of every day until birth it is growing and starting to develop human characteristics. There for stopping that natural process is in my mind extremely wrong! In cases of rape I still think abortion should not be allowed, Was it the babies fault that he was concept ed no, so why should he be the one to take the fall? Some people say a fetus has not feeling or is not a real human yet. It is real as soon as sperm meets egg guys. The definition is as follows,"a fetus a developing mammal after the embryonic stage and before birth." So that would classify it as a human that is not fully developed yet. We all are not fully developed until around the age of 25. So what you people who are pro choice are really saying is its OK to murder this very small and completely innocent child. But if you kill a human with a gun on a street it is completely wrong. That makes no sense.


Finally,
It is extremely easy to avoid a situation where you would be given the option of abortion. Don't do it unless your absolutely committed to having a child. Using condoms or other things to prevent sperm from reaching the egg is also an alternative. My god people are so ignorant and lazy these days. Lets have sex and then just kill the baby. Completely wrong and un ethical!!! A child would be much better off alive then dead. I guarantee it.

Strawman arguments connected to a demonstrated inability to understand science and human development.

We don't argue that its' not okay to kill armed gun-men in the streets. In fact, it's quite easier to find vocal "Pro-Life" proponents who support the killing of unarmed people than it is to find pro-choice proponents who advocate against a necessary killing of armed-persons engaged in attempting to kill others in public.

Pro-choice isn't about life. We don't argue that there are living cells... The issue is that they are not persons, and that in all cases the full person's rights take precedence over the rights of the non-person. The survival of the mother is more important in any and all cases.

[Grenartia]

Abortion is Abortion, you are aborting a human life when you choose that decision. Science states that from conception to natural death is a full human life, It does not matter weather or not it feels pain or not. It is a human life being developed. Every hour of every day until birth it is growing and starting to develop human characteristics. There for stopping that natural process is in my mind extremely wrong! In cases of rape I still think abortion should not be allowed, Was it the babies fault that he was concept ed no, so why should he be the one to take the fall? Some people say a fetus has not feeling or is not a real human yet. It is real as soon as sperm meets egg guys. The definition is as follows,"a fetus a developing mammal after the embryonic stage and before birth." So that would classify it as a human that is not fully developed yet. We all are not fully developed until around the age of 25. So what you people who are pro choice are really saying is its OK to murder this very small and completely innocent child. But if you kill a human with a gun on a street it is completely wrong. That makes no sense.


Finally,
It is extremely easy to avoid a situation where you would be given the option of abortion. Don't do it unless your absolutely committed to having a child. Using condoms or other things to prevent sperm from reaching the egg is also an alternative. My god people are so ignorant and lazy these days. Lets have sex and then just kill the baby. Completely wrong and un ethical!!! A child would be much better off alive then dead. I guarantee it.

Strawman arguments connected to a demonstrated inability to understand science and human development.

We don't argue that its' not okay to kill armed gun-men in the streets. In fact, it's quite easier to find vocal "Pro-Life" proponents who support the killing of unarmed people than it is to find pro-choice proponents who advocate against a necessary killing of armed-persons engaged in attempting to kill others in public.

Pro-choice isn't about life. We don't argue that there are living cells... The issue is that they are not persons, and that in all cases the full person's rights take precedence over the rights of the non-person. The survival of the mother is more important in any and all cases.

So when does the fairy turn the fetus into a person?

[Norstal]

So when does the fairy turn the fetus into a person?

So when does a fairy made it not okay to have sex, get pregnant, and get an abortion?

[Tekania]

Strawman arguments connected to a demonstrated inability to understand science and human development.

We don't argue that its' not okay to kill armed gun-men in the streets. In fact, it's quite easier to find vocal "Pro-Life" proponents who support the killing of unarmed people than it is to find pro-choice proponents who advocate against a necessary killing of armed-persons engaged in attempting to kill others in public.

Pro-choice isn't about life. We don't argue that there are living cells... The issue is that they are not persons, and that in all cases the full person's rights take precedence over the rights of the non-person. The survival of the mother is more important in any and all cases.

So when does the fairy turn the fetus into a person?

There's a lot of legal debate on that issue. But in any case such a limite would to be subsequent to neural development, which places almost all abortion procedures firmly in the realm of non-personhood.

[Sivonaa]

I was not arguing that its not ok to kill an armed man, I was saying its not ok for some one to kill someone else, but its fine if you kill a fetus? Sounds a little screwed up. If you think its ok for you or anyone to have the authority to stop a life then you are seriously screwed up. And the order goes children, women and then men. Who made the decision to risk having a baby? No the fetus the mom and dad. So if they don't want to take responsibility for their actions and take it out on a innocent fetus then go to hell. Its not are decision to say who lives and dies in this world. Even if a child is conceived there are alternatives such as orphanages or foster homes.

[Grenartia]

So when does the fairy turn the fetus into a person?

So when does a fairy made it not okay to have sex, get pregnant, and get an abortion?

I never said it wasn't ok not to have sex. I'll be the last person to say that. I'm just saying take some damn responsibility. If you can't afford/don't want a kid, put the woman on the pill, and make the dude wear a condom.

1 oz. Prevention = 1 lb. Cure

Its that fucking simple.

[Norstal]

So when does a fairy made it not okay to have sex, get pregnant, and get an abortion?

I never said it wasn't ok not to have sex. I'll be the last person to say that. I'm just saying take some damn responsibility. If you can't afford/don't want a kid, put the woman on the pill, and make the dude wear a condom.

1 oz. Prevention = 1 lb. Cure

Its that fucking simple.

Hard to use a condom/take pills when you've never heard/learned about it or have access.

And obviously, I'm not talking about first-world countries, but even in those places people still haven't learned about contraceptives.

[Bottle]

Strawman arguments connected to a demonstrated inability to understand science and human development.

We don't argue that its' not okay to kill armed gun-men in the streets. In fact, it's quite easier to find vocal "Pro-Life" proponents who support the killing of unarmed people than it is to find pro-choice proponents who advocate against a necessary killing of armed-persons engaged in attempting to kill others in public.

Pro-choice isn't about life. We don't argue that there are living cells... The issue is that they are not persons, and that in all cases the full person's rights take precedence over the rights of the non-person. The survival of the mother is more important in any and all cases.

So when does the fairy turn the fetus into a person?

That's kind of the point:

WOMEN'S BODIES turn it into a person, and they do so through a physically intense process that causes permanent physiological changes to the female body even in the best of cases.

People aren't made by Sperm Magic, wherein a man's magical seed imbues the egg with personhood. People aren't made in an instant, they're made over a long period of time. I spent 6 years studying just one tiny part of that developmental process, and I can't even claim to fully understand the tiny part that I studied. It's beautiful and amazing, and that's why it seems so hilarious and sad to me when people try to brush aside that entire process and claim that a person magically springs into existence the moment an egg is fertilized or the moment a few cells implant in the uterine wall (hint: these do not happen at the same time!).

Given how beautiful and amazing and complicated every human individual is, why should it be so hard to grasp that an equally beautiful and amazing and complicated PROCESS is required to make us?

[Bottle]

So when does a fairy made it not okay to have sex, get pregnant, and get an abortion?

I never said it wasn't ok not to have sex. I'll be the last person to say that. I'm just saying take some damn responsibility. If you can't afford/don't want a kid, put the woman on the pill, and make the dude wear a condom.

1 oz. Prevention = 1 lb. Cure

Its that fucking simple.

You gonna provide contraception for free? One in six Americans will struggle with hunger, my friend, so let's not bullshit about this. I can buy a week's worth of groceries for the same amount as a box of condoms. When I was on the Pill, it cost me about a buck a pill, and that's not counting the routine doctor's visits I was required to go to in order to keep getting the 'script refilled.

[Grenartia]

I never said it wasn't ok not to have sex. I'll be the last person to say that. I'm just saying take some damn responsibility. If you can't afford/don't want a kid, put the woman on the pill, and make the dude wear a condom.

1 oz. Prevention = 1 lb. Cure

Its that fucking simple.

Hard to use a condom/take pills when you've never heard/learned about it or have access.

And obviously, I'm not talking about first-world countries, but even in those places people still haven't learned about contraceptives.

That's why we need to give more funding to Sex Ed, and make it a required course!

So when does the fairy turn the fetus into a person?

That's kind of the point:

WOMEN'S BODIES turn it into a person, and they do so through a physically intense process that causes permanent physiological changes to the female body even in the best of cases.

People aren't made by Sperm Magic, wherein a man's magical seed imbues the egg with personhood. People aren't made in an instant, they're made over a long period of time. I spent 6 years studying just one tiny part of that developmental process, and I can't even claim to fully understand the tiny part that I studied. It's beautiful and amazing, and that's why it seems so hilarious and sad to me when people try to brush aside that entire process and claim that a person magically springs into existence the moment an egg is fertilized or the moment a few cells implant in the uterine wall (hint: these do not happen at the same time!).

Given how beautiful and amazing and complicated every human individual is, why should it be so hard to grasp that an equally beautiful and amazing and complicated PROCESS is required to make us?

I never said that the creation of human life was simple. And the entire reason I'm Pro-life is BECAUSE that process is so amazing and complicated and beautiful.

I gotta go to work. I'll continue this in 6 hours.

[Wiztopia]

Abortion is Abortion, you are aborting a human life when you choose that decision. Science states that from conception to natural death is a full human life, It does not matter weather or not it feels pain or not. It is a human life being developed. Every hour of every day until birth it is growing and starting to develop human characteristics. There for stopping that natural process is in my mind extremely wrong! In cases of rape I still think abortion should not be allowed, Was it the babies fault that he was concept ed no, so why should he be the one to take the fall? Some people say a fetus has not feeling or is not a real human yet. It is real as soon as sperm meets egg guys. The definition is as follows,"a fetus a developing mammal after the embryonic stage and before birth." So that would classify it as a human that is not fully developed yet. We all are not fully developed until around the age of 25. So what you people who are pro choice are really saying is its OK to murder this very small and completely innocent child. But if you kill a human with a gun on a street it is completely wrong. That makes no sense.


Finally,
It is extremely easy to avoid a situation where you would be given the option of abortion. Don't do it unless your absolutely committed to having a child. Using condoms or other things to prevent sperm from reaching the egg is also an alternative. My god people are so ignorant and lazy these days. Lets have sex and then just kill the baby. Completely wrong and un ethical!!! A child would be much better off alive then dead. I guarantee it.

Fetuses are not babies. Also a fetus would be better off dead than raised by parents who would beat it every day.

[Shikkago]

Scientifically, brain function does not begin in a fetus until 5 months, and a fetus is not capable of living outside the mother's body until 6 months. Therefore, human life as an independent entity begins at 6 months.

Ethically, forcing someone to do anything with their body against their will (ie rape) is wrong. So forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want (ie a child of rape), isn't capable of supporting while within her body (yes, that's a concern- the fetus draws nutrition from the mother, if the mother is herself struggling to survive this can threaten her survival), or that literally might kill her (as in complications) is wrong.

Pragmatically, if a woman has to prove, at 6 months, that if she doesn't have an abortion she will die, she might find a corrupt or biased court will deny her this right, and she will die because of it, or die waiting.

Also, making something illegal does not prevent people from doing it (ie Prohibition) and creates a dangerous black market, as in the pre-abortion days, which actually kills more people, so you are not saving lives by promoting this.

Politically, we cannot give the government jurisdiction over our bodies. This can have very dangerous implications that may extend to other parts of our lives. What if the government were to force people to have abortions? Wouldn't that be wrong? The reverse is also true. It is dangerous to give away your freedoms in this manner just because you feel others may do something immoral.

Socially, we can discourage abortion several ways:
(1) promoting contraception.
(2) promoting scientific sex education.
(3) promoting non-fertilizing sex practices (hands, mouths, toys).
(3) promoting adoption.
(4) providing aid to women who want to choose adoption.
(5) using your voice.
(6) advancing science so less women's lives are threatened by complications.

So if you really hate abortion, don't pressure the government to restrict our choices and take control over our bodies. And please, don't harass women on their way to the clinic who have already made that difficult choice, possibly because though they wanted a baby they couldn't have one safely, or because they are rape victims. Donate to a charity or to science, advocate for more comprehensive science-based sex education, talk to your friends, adopt a child. All these things will do more to prevent abortions than a law. All a law will do is promote illegal abortions that will kill more people.

[Aeronos]

I never said it wasn't ok not to have sex. I'll be the last person to say that. I'm just saying take some damn responsibility. If you can't afford/don't want a kid, put the woman on the pill, and make the dude wear a condom.

1 oz. Prevention = 1 lb. Cure

Its that fucking simple.

You gonna provide contraception for free? One in six Americans will struggle with hunger, my friend, so let's not bullshit about this. I can buy a week's worth of groceries for the same amount as a box of condoms. When I was on the Pill, it cost me about a buck a pill, and that's not counting the routine doctor's visits I was required to go to in order to keep getting the 'script refilled.

And through all of that, the process is still only 99% safe lol.

And to relate to his previous point, if we're to look at it scientifically, the baby becomes human when it can think for itself. As I said on the previous page, this is around 20-25 weeks.

[Dyakovo]

Bias? All I know is that from my experience there are a number of "shades" of pro-choice, while being pro-life is fairly straightforward. Pro-life with exceptions is basically option 3. It's ambiguous so I couldn't decide.

What other options do you want?

I'm just saying, I'm Pro-life for different reasons than the Republicants on TV. They're Pro life for religious reasons. I'm Pro life because the fetus does have a right to live, and while the woman does have the right to do whatever she wants with her body, the fetus's right to live supercedes her right. Simply marking Pro life doesn't make that distinction.

Rights are something a person has... A foetus is not a person.

[Keronians]

Damn it.

Based on OP, I'm going to have to choose one of the pro-choice options.

[Keronians]

I'm just saying, I'm Pro-life for different reasons than the Republicants on TV. They're Pro life for religious reasons. I'm Pro life because the fetus does have a right to live, and while the woman does have the right to do whatever she wants with her body, the fetus's right to live supercedes her right. Simply marking Pro life doesn't make that distinction.

Rights are something a person has... A foetus is not a person.

So, using that logic, animals shouldn't get rights either?

[Wiztopia]

Damn it.

Based on OP, I'm going to have to choose one of the pro-choice options.

There's only one way to be pro-life. Unless you want anti choice on there.

[Norstal]

Rights are something a person has... A foetus is not a person.

So, using that logic, animals shouldn't get rights either?

What rights do they have when we made them pets or cattle?

[Keronians]

So, using that logic, animals shouldn't get rights either?

What rights do they have when we made them pets or cattle?

Key word: should.

[Wiztopia]

So, using that logic, animals shouldn't get rights either?

What rights do they have when we made them pets or cattle?

The right to be tasty.

[Dyakovo]

Rights are something a person has... A foetus is not a person.

So, using that logic, animals shouldn't get rights either?

Correct.

[Keronians]

So, using that logic, animals shouldn't get rights either?

Correct.

Please pay a visit to the animal rights thread, since I don't want to threadjack.

[Grenartia]

I'm just saying, I'm Pro-life for different reasons than the Republicants on TV. They're Pro life for religious reasons. I'm Pro life because the fetus does have a right to live, and while the woman does have the right to do whatever she wants with her body, the fetus's right to live supercedes her right. Simply marking Pro life doesn't make that distinction.

Rights are something a person has... A foetus is not a person.

A fetus can legally be considered a victim of a crime in over 30 states. So if it can be a victim of murder, then why do we still not consider it a person? Because a long ass fucking time ago (the better part of a century, I believe) some people wanted to have the ability to murder their own child/children, get off scott-free, and still be able to sleep at night.

Scientifically, brain function does not begin in a fetus until 5 months, and a fetus is not capable of living outside the mother's body until 6 months. Therefore, human life as an independent entity begins at 6 months.

Ethically, forcing someone to do anything with their body against their will (ie rape) is wrong. So forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want (ie a child of rape), isn't capable of supporting while within her body (yes, that's a concern- the fetus draws nutrition from the mother, if the mother is herself struggling to survive this can threaten her survival), or that literally might kill her (as in complications) is wrong.

Pragmatically, if a woman has to prove, at 6 months, that if she doesn't have an abortion she will die, she might find a corrupt or biased court will deny her this right, and she will die because of it, or die waiting.

Also, making something illegal does not prevent people from doing it (ie Prohibition) and creates a dangerous black market, as in the pre-abortion days, which actually kills more people, so you are not saving lives by promoting this.

Politically, we cannot give the government jurisdiction over our bodies. This can have very dangerous implications that may extend to other parts of our lives. What if the government were to force people to have abortions? Wouldn't that be wrong? The reverse is also true. It is dangerous to give away your freedoms in this manner just because you feel others may do something immoral.

Socially, we can discourage abortion several ways:
(1) promoting contraception.
(2) promoting scientific sex education.
(3) promoting non-fertilizing sex practices (hands, mouths, toys).
(3) promoting adoption.
(4) providing aid to women who want to choose adoption.
(5) using your voice.
(6) advancing science so less women's lives are threatened by complications.

So if you really hate abortion, don't pressure the government to restrict our choices and take control over our bodies. And please, don't harass women on their way to the clinic who have already made that difficult choice, possibly because though they wanted a baby they couldn't have one safely, or because they are rape victims. Donate to a charity or to science, advocate for more comprehensive science-based sex education, talk to your friends, adopt a child. All these things will do more to prevent abortions than a law. All a law will do is promote illegal abortions that will kill more people.

You do make some excellent points there. I don't want to make all abortions illegal, just the ones that occur after the development of brain activity and/or a heartbeat. Before that point, it is just a mass of cells. And after a woman notices she's 'late' (which would be about a month into development, tops), I'd think that 4 months would be a fair amount of time to weigh her options, consider all the consequences, etc., before making a decision.

[Alixanderia]

I love my period! YEAH, go free, my heathen eggs!

But all jokes aside, it's not a person, it doesn't deserve personhood, and it doesn't get to hijack my body if I don't want it. And I *love* guys jerking off. *fans self*