Iran Says Israel Behind Explosion at Nuclear Site

[Islamic Holy Sites]

For Article II: There is no roof at all that Iran is building a nuke.

Enriching uranium to 20% when you only need to enrich it to somewhere between 3% or 5% for it to be commercially viable in the production of energy heavily suggests that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapon as does previous non-compliance and cooperation with North Korea on nuclear research.

Since the disclosure in 2002 of its clandestine nuclear program, Iran has been repeatedly found in breach of its NPT safeguards agreement and subsidiary arrangements, by conducting nuclear activities which it had not declared to the IAEA and by failing to declare the construction of nuclear facilities.

The Iranian program represents a major challenge to the NPT as the IAEA has reported "consistent and credible" information on its possible military dimensions. A further deterioration of this situation (including risks that other countries engage in similar
activities or that Iran withdraws from the NPT) would deeply weaken the treaty

Source

In short, Iran has been repeatedly dishonest about its existing nuclear facilities, has hidden and obscured their operations, and has been caught several times doing things that strongly suggest that they are pursuing a nuclear weapon. I would even go so far as to allege that you believe the same as well, given that your initial defense wasn't "Iran isn't violating the NPT" but, rather, "Iran has a right to nukes to defend itself from Israel's nukes."

For Article III: They were complying with it, until the US put sanctions and withdrew from JCPOA.

Iran has been non-compliant with Article III in the past, which is what necessitated the JCPOA in the first place, and has progressed rapidly since 2015 towards the possible development of a nuclear weapon. Given Iran has been repeatedly dishonest about its nuclear program, as far back as 2003 and 2005, I'm not really inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Have you ever considered it could be a bargaining chip to remove sanctions from Iran via the JCPOA?

[Fahran]

Have you ever considered it could be a bargaining chip to remove sanctions from Iran via the JCPOA?

"Remove sanctions or we'll violate the NPT like we were violating the NPT in 2003." While that does make sense, it doesn't really refute my point about Iran probably violating the NPT. Which explains why Israel is sabotaging Iran's nuclear facilities. Because they're an explicit threat to Israel's national security and existence.

[Dowaesk]

I would love nothing more than if Israel started a war with Iran, said "America help us" and we said "No, we've had enough war for now." I'm getting tired of us bending over backwards for a country you can barely even see on the map, and the 200000000 pound elephant in the room is that Israel gets all this sympathy because of the holocaust. It's all a sympathy play and without that history, a similar country would be given alot less wiggle room to fuck around. If Israel starts an Iran war, zero American troops should fight it. Let the hotheads in Tel Aviv direct their troops and their tanks against the Iranians, maybe they can call on the Saudis for help. But Americans shouldn't have to die over a national dickmeasuring contest.

Lets see here. Mine is 69cm. How long is urs?

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Have you ever considered it could be a bargaining chip to remove sanctions from Iran via the JCPOA?

"Remove sanctions or we'll violate the NPT like we were violating the NPT in 2003." While that does make sense, it doesn't really refute my point about Iran probably violating the NPT. Which explains why Israel is sabotaging Iran's nuclear facilities. Because they're an explicit threat to Israel's national security and existence.

Which seems to be apartheid-ing the Palestinians... I guess it's a matter of 'national security' too. Also, many say that if Iran wanted a bomb, they would have it by now.

[Fahran]

Which seems to be apartheid-ing the Palestinians...

I suppose that depends on how you define apartheid. Given Arabs who possess Israeli citizenship receive political representation, may move freely within Israel's borders, may own property and operate businesses, etc., we would have to dramatically lower the bar of apartheid from the system that was present in South Africa. And, by that metric, Turkey, Syria, Russia, the US, China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are also all committing apartheid.

As per Amnesty International...

Ethnic minorities, including Ahwazi Arabs, Azerbaijani Turks, Baluchis, Kurds and Turkmen faced entrenched discrimination, curtailing their access to education, employment, adequate housing and political office. Continued under-investment in minority-populated regions exacerbated poverty and marginalization. [u]Despite repeated calls for linguistic diversity, Persian remained the sole language of instruction in primary and secondary education.

Members of minorities who spoke out against violations or demanded a degree of regional self-government were subjected to arbitrary detention, torture and other ill-treatment. The authorities criminalized peaceful advocacy of separatism or federalism and accused minority rights activists of threatening Iran’s territorial integrity.

Several Azerbaijani Turkic activists were sentenced to imprisonment and flogging in connection with the November 2019 protests and peaceful activism on behalf of the Azerbaijani Turkic minority, and two had their flogging sentences carried out.

Ahwazi Arabs reported that the authorities restricted expressions of Arab culture, including dress and poetry.

Iran's border guards continued to unlawfully shoot scores of unarmed Kurdish kulbars who work, under cruel and inhumane conditions, as cross-border porters between the Kurdistan regions of Iran and Iraq, killing at least 40 men and injuring dozens of others, according to Kurdish human rights organizations.

Many Baluchi villagers in the impoverished province of Sistan and Baluchestan were denied their right to sufficient, physically accessible and safe water due to particularly poor infrastructure. They were forced to rely on unsafe sources of water such as rivers, wells, ponds and water pits inhabited by crocodiles for drinking and domestic use. Several people, including children, drowned while fetching water, including an eight-year-old girl from Jakigoor village where the water supply was cut for a week in August. Some local officials blamed victims for failing to take precautions. Many residents in the province also experienced poor access to electricity, schools and health facilities due to under-investment.

The Rome Statute defines apartheid quite broadly as follows...

...inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".

Perhaps the reason for opposition to Israel has less to do with a generalized opposition to apartheid and more to do with a decent number of the victims of said apartheid being Muslims and a useful cudgel against a convenient geopolitical scapegoat? After all, Iran certainly has no problem with engaging in apartheid against Arabs, so it can't be the fact that the Palestinians are Arabs or people that elicits such sympathy from the Iranian government. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the same thing.

I guess it's a matter of 'national security' too. Also, many say that if Iran wanted a bomb, they would have it by now.

Given that they'd need to enrich uranium to 90% to have weapons-grade uranium, they're making progress towards the goal but probably have a few years before they reached it. Interruptions, like the recent one, in their operations could slow the process or halt it indefinitely.

[Insaanistan]

Which seems to be apartheid-ing the Palestinians...

I suppose that depends on how you define apartheid. Given Arabs who possess Israeli citizenship receive political representation, may move freely within Israel's borders, may own property and operate businesses, etc., we would have to dramatically lower the bar of apartheid from the system that was present in South Africa. And, by that metric, Turkey, Syria, Russia, the US, China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are also all committing apartheid.

As per Amnesty International...

Ethnic minorities, including Ahwazi Arabs, Azerbaijani Turks, Baluchis, Kurds and Turkmen faced entrenched discrimination, curtailing their access to education, employment, adequate housing and political office. Continued under-investment in minority-populated regions exacerbated poverty and marginalization. [u]Despite repeated calls for linguistic diversity, Persian remained the sole language of instruction in primary and secondary education.

Members of minorities who spoke out against violations or demanded a degree of regional self-government were subjected to arbitrary detention, torture and other ill-treatment. The authorities criminalized peaceful advocacy of separatism or federalism and accused minority rights activists of threatening Iran’s territorial integrity.

Several Azerbaijani Turkic activists were sentenced to imprisonment and flogging in connection with the November 2019 protests and peaceful activism on behalf of the Azerbaijani Turkic minority, and two had their flogging sentences carried out.

Ahwazi Arabs reported that the authorities restricted expressions of Arab culture, including dress and poetry.

Iran's border guards continued to unlawfully shoot scores of unarmed Kurdish kulbars who work, under cruel and inhumane conditions, as cross-border porters between the Kurdistan regions of Iran and Iraq, killing at least 40 men and injuring dozens of others, according to Kurdish human rights organizations.

Many Baluchi villagers in the impoverished province of Sistan and Baluchestan were denied their right to sufficient, physically accessible and safe water due to particularly poor infrastructure. They were forced to rely on unsafe sources of water such as rivers, wells, ponds and water pits inhabited by crocodiles for drinking and domestic use. Several people, including children, drowned while fetching water, including an eight-year-old girl from Jakigoor village where the water supply was cut for a week in August. Some local officials blamed victims for failing to take precautions. Many residents in the province also experienced poor access to electricity, schools and health facilities due to under-investment.

The Rome Statute defines apartheid quite broadly as follows...

...inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".

Perhaps the reason for opposition to Israel has less to do with a generalized opposition to apartheid and more to do with a decent number of the victims of said apartheid being Muslims and a useful cudgel against a convenient geopolitical scapegoat? After all, Iran certainly has no problem with engaging in apartheid against Arabs, so it can't be the fact that the Palestinians are Arabs or people that elicits such sympathy from the Iranian government. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the same thing.

I guess it's a matter of 'national security' too. Also, many say that if Iran wanted a bomb, they would have it by now.

Given that they'd need to enrich uranium to 90% to have weapons-grade uranium, they're making progress towards the goal but probably have a few years before they reached it. Interruptions, like the recent one, in their operations could slow the process or halt it indefinitely.

Yeah, I’m no fan of Iran’s treatment of non-Muslims, Sunnis and non-Persians.

[Fahran]

Yeah, I’m no fan of Iran’s treatment of non-Muslims, Sunnis and non-Persians.

Just as I'm no fan of Israel's or anyone else's. I'm more so trying to dispel the notion that Iran or any of Israel's other enemies is somehow occupying some sort of moral highground on apartheid or ethnic cleansing. They all have apartheid in place de facto, are in the process of engaging in ethnic cleansing, or have already engaged in ethnic cleansing to such a widespread extent that ethnic and religious minorities have vanished altogether.

[Insaanistan]

Yeah, I’m no fan of Iran’s treatment of non-Muslims, Sunnis and non-Persians.

Just as I'm no fan of Israel's or anyone else's. I'm more so trying to dispel the notion that Iran or any of Israel's other enemies is somehow occupying some sort of moral highground on apartheid or ethnic cleansing. They all have apartheid in place de facto, are in the process of engaging in ethnic cleansing, or have already engaged in ethnic cleansing to such a widespread extent that ethnic and religious minorities have vanished altogether.

Oh, I get that.
I was just stating that I was against it.

[Saiwania]

Aaaand how is this important? It doesn't change that this policy is ridiculous. 'I'm stronger than you so I'll beat you up for no reason,' is NOT good.

It is good, because it is nonetheless what best reflects reality and logic in terms of decision making.

[Odreria]

I am gobsmacked, truly. This has to be the single most ridiculous foreign policy idea, or even an idea of morality (or lack thereof) I've heard in quite some time.

Its not if it is what is most practical. If the US were to become weak enough, it might have to return to isolationism for the most part. The best that could be done was done for South Vietnam, but in the end- no more resources could be poured into that project which failed. The sheer determination of North Vietnam to re-annex South Vietnam and win their civil war proved stronger than those who fought to keep South Vietnam an independent state.

More Vietnamese concluded that South Vietnam was a corrupt holdover from French colonialism than those who believed it was worth fighting for or preserving.

South Vietnam was never an independent country. It was de jure a part of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and de facto a colonial puppet regime.

[Saiwania]

South Vietnam was never an independent country. It was de jure a part of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and de facto a colonial puppet regime.

It nonetheless existed as a sovereign state for a period of 20 years. From 1955 until 1975. And even has a government in exile based in California.

[Odreria]

South Vietnam was never an independent country. It was de jure a part of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and de facto a colonial puppet regime.

It nonetheless existed as a sovereign state for a period of 20 years. From 1955 until 1975. And even has a government in exile based in California.

No it didn’t, no it doesn’t.

[Nevertopia]

Other, unless if you can see the future a kneejerk hot take on this topic will only end poorly. Let the international community do an investigation and what they find is what they find. If Israel did it then obviously they need to be held accountable, if they didn't then its important we figure out who did.

[Kubra]

I am gobsmacked, truly. This has to be the single most ridiculous foreign policy idea, or even an idea of morality (or lack thereof) I've heard in quite some time.

Its not if it is what is most practical. If the US were to become weak enough, it might have to return to isolationism for the most part. The best that could be done was done for South Vietnam, but in the end- no more resources could be poured into that project which failed. The sheer determination of North Vietnam to re-annex South Vietnam and win their civil war proved stronger than those who fought to keep South Vietnam an independent state.

More Vietnamese concluded that South Vietnam was a corrupt holdover from French colonialism than those who believed it was worth fighting for or preserving.

in fairness, the US had a big hand in shaping the South Vietnamese administration, and they kinda dropped the ball there.

[Drongonia]

I would love nothing more than if Israel started a war with Iran, said "America help us" and we said "No, we've had enough war for now." I'm getting tired of us bending over backwards for a country you can barely even see on the map, and the 200000000 pound elephant in the room is that Israel gets all this sympathy because of the holocaust. It's all a sympathy play and without that history, a similar country would be given alot less wiggle room to fuck around. If Israel starts an Iran war, zero American troops should fight it. Let the hotheads in Tel Aviv direct their troops and their tanks against the Iranians, maybe they can call on the Saudis for help. But Americans shouldn't have to die over a national dickmeasuring contest.

True left-right unity is when Rojava and I agree on this issue.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Which seems to be apartheid-ing the Palestinians...

I suppose that depends on how you define apartheid. Given Arabs who possess Israeli citizenship receive political representation, may move freely within Israel's borders, may own property and operate businesses, etc., we would have to dramatically lower the bar of apartheid from the system that was present in South Africa. And, by that metric, Turkey, Syria, Russia, the US, China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are also all committing apartheid.

As per Amnesty International...

Ethnic minorities, including Ahwazi Arabs, Azerbaijani Turks, Baluchis, Kurds and Turkmen faced entrenched discrimination, curtailing their access to education, employment, adequate housing and political office. Continued under-investment in minority-populated regions exacerbated poverty and marginalization. [u]Despite repeated calls for linguistic diversity, Persian remained the sole language of instruction in primary and secondary education.

Members of minorities who spoke out against violations or demanded a degree of regional self-government were subjected to arbitrary detention, torture and other ill-treatment. The authorities criminalized peaceful advocacy of separatism or federalism and accused minority rights activists of threatening Iran’s territorial integrity.

Several Azerbaijani Turkic activists were sentenced to imprisonment and flogging in connection with the November 2019 protests and peaceful activism on behalf of the Azerbaijani Turkic minority, and two had their flogging sentences carried out.

Ahwazi Arabs reported that the authorities restricted expressions of Arab culture, including dress and poetry.

Iran's border guards continued to unlawfully shoot scores of unarmed Kurdish kulbars who work, under cruel and inhumane conditions, as cross-border porters between the Kurdistan regions of Iran and Iraq, killing at least 40 men and injuring dozens of others, according to Kurdish human rights organizations.

Many Baluchi villagers in the impoverished province of Sistan and Baluchestan were denied their right to sufficient, physically accessible and safe water due to particularly poor infrastructure. They were forced to rely on unsafe sources of water such as rivers, wells, ponds and water pits inhabited by crocodiles for drinking and domestic use. Several people, including children, drowned while fetching water, including an eight-year-old girl from Jakigoor village where the water supply was cut for a week in August. Some local officials blamed victims for failing to take precautions. Many residents in the province also experienced poor access to electricity, schools and health facilities due to under-investment.

The Rome Statute defines apartheid quite broadly as follows...

...inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".

Perhaps the reason for opposition to Israel has less to do with a generalized opposition to apartheid and more to do with a decent number of the victims of said apartheid being Muslims and a useful cudgel against a convenient geopolitical scapegoat? After all, Iran certainly has no problem with engaging in apartheid against Arabs, so it can't be the fact that the Palestinians are Arabs or people that elicits such sympathy from the Iranian government. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the same thing.

I guess it's a matter of 'national security' too. Also, many say that if Iran wanted a bomb, they would have it by now.

Given that they'd need to enrich uranium to 90% to have weapons-grade uranium, they're making progress towards the goal but probably have a few years before they reached it. Interruptions, like the recent one, in their operations could slow the process or halt it indefinitely.

I know Arabs who lived in Iran and love it. Also, 2 million Palestinians are in an open air prison and a further 3 million trapped between the PA and Israel, both with Israel dominating everything about their lives but not allowed to vote, or flee to Israel (at least in the case of the ones in Gaza). How's that not Apartheid?

[Adamede]

Israel being allowed to do what it wants, with no repercussions from anyone?

I wonder why that is.

Because the US doesn’t want Iran to have nuclear capabilities.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Israel being allowed to do what it wants, with no repercussions from anyone?

I wonder why that is.

Because the US doesn’t want Iran to have nuclear capabilities.

Not all things Israel does is to stop Iran from getting nukes.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Israel being allowed to do what it wants, with no repercussions from anyone?

I wonder why that is.

Because the US doesn’t want Iran to have nuclear capabilities.

More like because the US is still way too sympathetic to Israel and still has a grudge after the events of November 4th 1979.

[SD_Film Artists]

I suppose that depends on how you define apartheid. Given Arabs who possess Israeli citizenship receive political representation, may move freely within Israel's borders, may own property and operate businesses, etc., we would have to dramatically lower the bar of apartheid from the system that was present in South Africa. And, by that metric, Turkey, Syria, Russia, the US, China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are also all committing apartheid.

As per Amnesty International...



The Rome Statute defines apartheid quite broadly as follows...



Perhaps the reason for opposition to Israel has less to do with a generalized opposition to apartheid and more to do with a decent number of the victims of said apartheid being Muslims and a useful cudgel against a convenient geopolitical scapegoat? After all, Iran certainly has no problem with engaging in apartheid against Arabs, so it can't be the fact that the Palestinians are Arabs or people that elicits such sympathy from the Iranian government. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing the same thing.


Given that they'd need to enrich uranium to 90% to have weapons-grade uranium, they're making progress towards the goal but probably have a few years before they reached it. Interruptions, like the recent one, in their operations could slow the process or halt it indefinitely.

I know Arabs who lived in Iran and love it.

"No Iran isn't racist, it has black friends"

Also, 2 million Palestinians are in an open air prison and a further 3 million trapped between the PA and Israel, both with Israel dominating everything about their lives but not allowed to vote, or flee to Israel (at least in the case of the ones in Gaza). How's that not Apartheid?

You know how they could vote? Make Gaza Israeli again. It's not likely to happen but generally you have to be part of the country and not launching rockets into said country to have a vote.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

I know Arabs who lived in Iran and love it.

"No Iran isn't racist, it has black friends"

Also, 2 million Palestinians are in an open air prison and a further 3 million trapped between the PA and Israel, both with Israel dominating everything about their lives but not allowed to vote, or flee to Israel (at least in the case of the ones in Gaza). How's that not Apartheid?

You know how they could vote? Make Gaza Israeli again. It's not likely to happen but generally you have to be part of the country and not launching rockets into said country to have a vote.

Your first point makes no sense at all. Also, I would like proof other than MEK etc for the apartheid thing, because if they underdevelop important areas (eg oil areas, with lots of arabs) it would destroy the economy even more.


For Gaza thing, let's assume someone came in your house and forced you into the basement and poked you with a giant fork because you threw stones at them (the fork thing). Would you continue to throw stones at that person or would you say 'I'm so sorry, please forgive me and let me eat the scraps you don't want to eat at the table'?

[SD_Film Artists]

"No Iran isn't racist, it has black friends"



You know how they could vote? Make Gaza Israeli again. It's not likely to happen but generally you have to be part of the country and not launching rockets into said country to have a vote.

Your first point makes no sense at all. Also, I would like proof other than MEK etc for the apartheid thing, because if they underdevelop important areas (eg oil areas, with lots of arabs) it would destroy the economy even more.

You're denying institutional racism because you know some guys. Yes it's entirely relevant.

For Gaza thing, let's assume someone came in your house and forced you into the basement and poked you with a giant fork because you threw stones at them (the fork thing). Would you continue to throw stones at that person or would you say 'I'm so sorry, please forgive me and let me eat the scraps you don't want to eat at the table'?

It's impossible to answer that with any meaning without more context. And what does it matter anyway? Does throwing stones at people give you a right to vote? Do they even want to vote in Israel? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

Your first point makes no sense at all. Also, I would like proof other than MEK etc for the apartheid thing, because if they underdevelop important areas (eg oil areas, with lots of arabs) it would destroy the economy even more.

You're denying institutional racism because you know some guys. Yes it's entirely relevant.

For Gaza thing, let's assume someone came in your house and forced you into the basement and poked you with a giant fork because you threw stones at them (the fork thing). Would you continue to throw stones at that person or would you say 'I'm so sorry, please forgive me and let me eat the scraps you don't want to eat at the table'?

I don't know, what does it matter either way? Does throwing stones at people give you a right to vote? Do they even want to vote in Israel? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

1. You're not really giving much proof for racism


2. It does matter. And they don't want to vote;(at least, not as far as I know) they want a state where they aren't constantly genocided.

[SD_Film Artists]

You're denying institutional racism because you know some guys. Yes it's entirely relevant.



I don't know, what does it matter either way? Does throwing stones at people give you a right to vote? Do they even want to vote in Israel? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

1. You're not really giving much proof for racism


2. It does matter. And they don't want to vote;(at least, not as far as I know) they want a state where they aren't constantly genocided.

1. You're confusing me for Fahran. I never said that Fahran's source is infallible, I just said that 'knowing some guys' doesn't automatically debunk it.

2. You complained that they didn't have the vote in an "open air prison". If they want a state then there's the two-state solution. And please stop with the hyperbole; if they were going to "genocide" gaza then it's a pretty eeak-ass attempt considering their available weaponry. If you're going to talk about genocide then save it for actual genocide like the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

[Islamic Holy Sites]

1. You're not really giving much proof for racism


2. It does matter. And they don't want to vote;(at least, not as far as I know) they want a state where they aren't constantly genocided.

1. You're confusing me for Fahran. I never said that Fahran's source is infallible, I just said that 'knowing some guys' doesn't automatically debunk it.

2. You complained that they didn't have the vote in an "open air prison". If they want a state then there's the two-state solution. And please stop with the hyperbole; if they were going to "genocide" gaza then they would have already done so. If you're going to talk about genocide then save it for actual genocide like the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

1. Ok. Then why weren't they placed under apartheid then?

2. 2 state; neither Hamas nor the Likud want that.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba