Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Luminesa]

You said you thinks she's equal to God, and that she's bitter toward people who have more money than she does. That's a rather un-nuanced and harsh attack on someone. If anything, considering that she specifically said in her response that she doesn't hate other people for having money, and that she looked-up to her Dad for being such a giver despite her family's severe poverty, I think you overstepped yourself.

On the contrary, (Though I may have worded it poorly) I claimed her reasoning suggests she believes God to be equal to her. It's an inverse quality. She doesn't think overly highly of herself necessarily, but rather she doesn't consider God to be worthy of worship or following. She treats God the way she'd treat any other person. It's not an unfair criticism, it's literally what she was advocating.

Bitterness =/= hatred. One does not have to hatred in order to have a chip on ones shoulder.

Well, you could have said that in the first place, instead of saying, "You're just bitter because you're poor." That was totally uncalled for.

[Philjia]

You have no free will. All you are is matter and energy. The behaviour of matter is predictable. Everything that was, and will be, was predictable from the moment of creation. Of course, you'd need omniscience to map the path of every particle, but luckily for God, he has it. Every decision you have ever made and will ever make is known to God. God transcends time and space by definition; if the corruption of humanity was not his intention, their is clearly some other power blinding his ability to see it coming.

Only in perfect systems.

On approximately perfect systems, this is actually not the case.

Omniscience renders this a pointless observation, however.

[Dylar]

I'd like to see evidence on how God is "cruel, jealous, greedy, and sadistic" Give me factual evidence. Not your interpretation of Bible stories.

1) He says so in Exodus 20:4
2) He elected to create this version of Earth, with all it's history and future. Look at it.
3) He is wilfully absent.
4) He has committed every sin in the book, principally murder.

1. He says to worship Him, and not all these other fake Gods that did nothing for the Israelites.
2. He created Earth and allowed the human race to run it's course without his intervention. You sound like he created WWII...
3. Willfully absent? Or are you just not opening your heart to him?
4.Every sin? So, gluttony, sloth, pride, masturbation, lying, saying the Lord's name in vain? All those, too?

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'd like to see evidence on how God is "cruel, jealous, greedy, and sadistic" Give me factual evidence. Not your interpretation of Bible stories.

1) He says so in Exodus 20:4
2) He elected to create this version of Earth, with all it's history and future. Look at it.
3) He is wilfully absent.
4) He has committed every sin in the book, principally murder.

God isn't absent, and, by definition, cannot sin.

Also, I see mainly humans inflicting suffering there. And, actually, He didn't create this version of Earth. He created Earth, but we polluted it with sin. And He will eventually restore it to its proper state.

[Philjia]

1) He says so in Exodus 20:4
2) He elected to create this version of Earth, with all it's history and future. Look at it.
3) He is wilfully absent.
4) He has committed every sin in the book, principally murder.

God isn't absent, and, by definition, cannot sin.

Also, I see mainly humans inflicting suffering there. And, actually, He didn't create this version of Earth. He created Earth, but we polluted it with sin. And He will eventually restore it to its proper state.

We are his and he knew what was coming. He delegated the corruption of Earth so he could admonish us for it, because he's some kind of control freak.

[Lady Scylla]

It was a character attack. You can pass off polished shit as something beautiful -- you still have shit however.

But I'll fill you in on a little secret Tarsonis involving reading comprehension, and I want to make sure I'm very clear here: tones can be very misleading when you're reading text. Remember that next time before you try to psychoanalyse someone -- it comes off as extremely pretentious, arrogant, and reeking of a lack of moral integrity. Cheers.

Impugning ones motives is only a character attack if I impugn your motives as dishonest. Which I did not do. Bitterness as I called it is not a moral action, or even really a character flaw. You consistently cast the wealthy in a negative light, either moralistically or emotionally, and you consistently couch that negative portrayal in the fact that they had more, and you had less. It's perfectly natural to be bitter from watching the wealthy squander their wealth and take it for granted, while your family struggles to make end meets all the while making great strives to make financial contributions to other less fortunate. My mention of it was honestly, just a suggestion that your aversion to grandiose churches had to do with your own personal biases rather than any substantive theological doctrine. Honestly, if you had merely offered a, clarification, even with equal snark, to your comment I would have simply shrugged my shoulders. But your defensiveness suggests I really struck a nerve.

You used to be poor, so I take it you are no longer. You are also a Christian, and thereby give, as I imagine, charity. Your zeroing in on me, as I see it, is likely the result of me making a comment that struck a nerve. In response, you've chosen to cast me off as bitter and prideful. You made assumptions of me you know little about -- assumptions that within themselves are judgement being passed on me because I had unintentionally stepped on your toes. The problem with your argument above is that I wasn't arguing against grandiose churches -- I was arguing against those that make alms for the sake of attention. The topic at the time about the churches was just a launchpad for a different discussion I wanted to have; one you took offense to.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I'd like to see evidence on how God is "cruel, jealous, greedy, and sadistic" Give me factual evidence. Not your interpretation of Bible stories.

1) He says so in Exodus 20:4
2) He elected to create this version of Earth, with all it's history and future. Look at it.
3) He is wilfully absent.
4) He has committed every sin in the book, principally murder.

1. Jealousy of the Ten Commandments is Covenantial language, invoking concepts of marriage. God is making a contract with Israel, and is demanding exclusivity. It's not what, we would characterizes as human emotions of jealousy.
2. Eh he elected to create the Earth, but we're the ones that have really screwed it up. You're making an appeal to absolve human culpability and place it on God, it doesn't work that way.
3. Maybe, maybe not.
4. Here's how I know you didn't read Anselm, because God, by both the definitions of God and Sin, cannot commit sins. Sins are a human condition, and God is not bound by our morality. Its no more immoral for God to smite a human, then it is for us crush paramecium on a microscope slide.

Look, I find Sagon of Akkad, the Amazing Atheist, and yes Richard Dawkins, amusing too, but you might want to expand the scope of your enlightenment.

[United Muscovite Nations]

God isn't absent, and, by definition, cannot sin.

Also, I see mainly humans inflicting suffering there. And, actually, He didn't create this version of Earth. He created Earth, but we polluted it with sin. And He will eventually restore it to its proper state.

We are his and he knew what was coming. He delegated the corruption of Earth so he could admonish us for it, because he's some kind of control freak.

So, if God prevented us from sinning, He would somehow be less of a "control freak" than if if He allows us to destroy ourselves?

[Lost Memories]

I did. It's just more hand waving for your cruel, jealous, greedy, sadistic God who created us our endless capacity for corruption and then demanded we dance for his amusement.

Also, note that God already razed Earth in the story of Noah. What was the point in that if he was going to send Christ later?

I'd like to see evidence on how God is "cruel, jealous, greedy, and sadistic" Give me factual evidence. Not your interpretation of Bible stories.

Why are you asking him evidence? Isn't God's goodness part of its definition? Something which is "cruel" isn't God.

[Ashmoria]

We are his and he knew what was coming. He delegated the corruption of Earth so he could admonish us for it, because he's some kind of control freak.

So, if God prevented us from sinning, He would somehow be less of a "control freak" than if if He allows us to destroy ourselves?

this is just a temporary way station on the road to perfection.

god promises you a great AFTERLIFE. this life sucks.

[Dooplevinia]

Feels like if I comment on this thread I'll have to defend that Mormons are Christians. xD

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Impugning ones motives is only a character attack if I impugn your motives as dishonest. Which I did not do. Bitterness as I called it is not a moral action, or even really a character flaw. You consistently cast the wealthy in a negative light, either moralistically or emotionally, and you consistently couch that negative portrayal in the fact that they had more, and you had less. It's perfectly natural to be bitter from watching the wealthy squander their wealth and take it for granted, while your family struggles to make end meets all the while making great strives to make financial contributions to other less fortunate. My mention of it was honestly, just a suggestion that your aversion to grandiose churches had to do with your own personal biases rather than any substantive theological doctrine. Honestly, if you had merely offered a, clarification, even with equal snark, to your comment I would have simply shrugged my shoulders. But your defensiveness suggests I really struck a nerve.

You used to be poor, so I take it you are no longer. You are also a Christian, and thereby give, as I imagine, charity. Your zeroing in on me, as I see it, is likely the result of me making a comment that struck a nerve. In response, you've chosen to cast me off as bitter and prideful. You made assumptions of me you know little about -- assumptions that within themselves are judgement being passed on me because I had unintentionally stepped on your toes. The problem with your argument above is that I wasn't arguing against grandiose churches -- I was arguing against those that make alms for the sake of attention. The topic at the time about the churches was just a launchpad for a different discussion I wanted to have; one you took offense to.

I admit, you could have worded that launchpad post differently.

So could Tarsonis made an effort to make a more careful counter to it.

However, both of you have been arguing your points decently, so there's that.

[Ashmoria]

Reels like if I comment on this thread I'll have to defend that Mormons are Christians. xD

nah you can ignore the few bigots.

[Lady Scylla]

You used to be poor, so I take it you are no longer. You are also a Christian, and thereby give, as I imagine, charity. Your zeroing in on me, as I see it, is likely the result of me making a comment that struck a nerve. In response, you've chosen to cast me off as bitter and prideful. You made assumptions of me you know little about -- assumptions that within themselves are judgement being passed on me because I had unintentionally stepped on your toes. The problem with your argument above is that I wasn't arguing against grandiose churches -- I was arguing against those that make alms for the sake of attention. The topic at the time about the churches was just a launchpad for a different discussion I wanted to have; one you took offense to.

I admit, you could have worded that launchpad post differently.

So could Tarsonis made an effort to make a more careful counter to it.

However, both of you have been arguing your points decently, so there's that.

Admittedly, being tired from a night of storms makes one a bit hard-pressed to say things concisely.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Impugning ones motives is only a character attack if I impugn your motives as dishonest. Which I did not do. Bitterness as I called it is not a moral action, or even really a character flaw. You consistently cast the wealthy in a negative light, either moralistically or emotionally, and you consistently couch that negative portrayal in the fact that they had more, and you had less. It's perfectly natural to be bitter from watching the wealthy squander their wealth and take it for granted, while your family struggles to make end meets all the while making great strives to make financial contributions to other less fortunate. My mention of it was honestly, just a suggestion that your aversion to grandiose churches had to do with your own personal biases rather than any substantive theological doctrine. Honestly, if you had merely offered a, clarification, even with equal snark, to your comment I would have simply shrugged my shoulders. But your defensiveness suggests I really struck a nerve.

You used to be poor, so I take it you are no longer. You are also a Christian, and thereby give, as I imagine, charity. Your zeroing in on me, as I see it, is likely the result of me making a comment that struck a nerve. In response, you've chosen to cast me off as bitter and prideful. You made assumptions of me you know little about -- assumptions that within themselves are judgement being passed on me because I had unintentionally stepped on your toes. The problem with your argument above is that I wasn't arguing against grandiose churches -- I was arguing against those that make alms for the sake of attention. The topic at the time about the churches was just a launchpad for a different discussion I wanted to have; one you took offense to.

Nope, still poor. But other than that, yes I was fed up with the disparaging the dedication of thousands of man hours and resources to honor God, as a subtle mascaraed for non-catholics to clothe their personal disdain for the Catholic Church, so I joined the discussion. You're not unraveling some hidden agenda.

[Ashmoria]

I admit, you could have worded that launchpad post differently.

So could Tarsonis made an effort to make a more careful counter to it.

However, both of you have been arguing your points decently, so there's that.

Admittedly, being tired from a night of storms makes one a bit hard-pressed to say things concisely.

did you get the 85 mph winds?

[Lady Scylla]

You used to be poor, so I take it you are no longer. You are also a Christian, and thereby give, as I imagine, charity. Your zeroing in on me, as I see it, is likely the result of me making a comment that struck a nerve. In response, you've chosen to cast me off as bitter and prideful. You made assumptions of me you know little about -- assumptions that within themselves are judgement being passed on me because I had unintentionally stepped on your toes. The problem with your argument above is that I wasn't arguing against grandiose churches -- I was arguing against those that make alms for the sake of attention. The topic at the time about the churches was just a launchpad for a different discussion I wanted to have; one you took offense to.

Nope, still poor. But other than that, yes I was fed up with the disparaging the dedication of thousands of man hours and resources to honor God, as a subtle mascaraed for non-catholics to clothe their personal disdain for the Catholic Church, so I joined the discussion. You're not unraveling some hidden agenda.

Boy, am I relieved then!

[Anywhere Else But Here]

1) He says so in Exodus 20:4
2) He elected to create this version of Earth, with all it's history and future. Look at it.
3) He is wilfully absent.
4) He has committed every sin in the book, principally murder.

God isn't absent, and, by definition, cannot sin.

Also, I see mainly humans inflicting suffering there. And, actually, He didn't create this version of Earth. He created Earth, but we polluted it with sin. And He will eventually restore it to its proper state.

When?

[Dooplevinia]

Reels like if I comment on this thread I'll have to defend that Mormons are Christians. xD

nah you can ignore the few bigots.

Lol! Will do

[Lady Scylla]

Admittedly, being tired from a night of storms makes one a bit hard-pressed to say things concisely.

did you get the 85 mph winds?

25, large hail, and a tornado watch.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

1) He says so in Exodus 20:4
2) He elected to create this version of Earth, with all it's history and future. Look at it.
3) He is wilfully absent.
4) He has committed every sin in the book, principally murder.

1. Jealousy of the Ten Commandments is Covenantial language, invoking concepts of marriage. God is making a contract with Israel, and is demanding exclusivity. It's not what, we would characterizes as human emotions of jealousy.

I think that the more proper way to express God's "jealousy" (which I think the Bible translations' wording sucks at it to be fair, but this is a fault lying more on the messengers than on the message) is that God expects loyalty, and He is very demanding of it.

That doesn't necessarily imply that God is jealous, after all, he lets us do whatever the fuck we want anyways. But disloyalty does bring a price, either in life or in the afterlife.

[Ashmoria]

did you get the 85 mph winds?

25, large hail, and a tornado watch.

25 is rough enough. did anything get smashed? when we got baseball sized hail here a few years back all the cars and roofs in town were damaged.

[Luminesa]

God isn't absent, and, by definition, cannot sin.

Also, I see mainly humans inflicting suffering there. And, actually, He didn't create this version of Earth. He created Earth, but we polluted it with sin. And He will eventually restore it to its proper state.

When?

A loooooooong time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

[Lady Scylla]

25, large hail, and a tornado watch.

25 is rough enough. did anything get smashed? when we got baseball sized hail here a few years back all the cars and roofs in town were damaged.

Nah, just some tree branches. Thankfully the worst of it was around Dallas it seems. \o/

[Dylar]

I'd like to see evidence on how God is "cruel, jealous, greedy, and sadistic" Give me factual evidence. Not your interpretation of Bible stories.

Why are you asking him evidence? Isn't God's goodness part of its definition? Something which is "cruel" isn't God.

I wanted to know if he could defend his blasphemous claims.