[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[Seven Zealous Saints]

- Seven Zealous Saints
- just now
- Much Ado About Abortion

I picked option 3, the most restrictive anti-abortionist one. My civil rights rose (!) by 12% after that. I'm not discussing the number here, that's just natural, since my civil rights are rather low. But why would they rise at all after such a decision?

I understand the thought that might have been father of the thought here - forbidding abortion is a civil right for the unborn child, in the end. But does this really make sense? Since the right to abort is a civil right for the pregnant woman, all of the options of this issue would raise your civil rights, wouldn't they?

They do: The editors decided that that was preferable to them taking an official stand on either side of the argument.

Btw, this is a pic of how the stats changed:
https://gyazo.com/7820ba7e233e85b0d29f0b1d0d540d02

I think many of them don't make sense. Authoritarianism drops after this decision? Religiousness rises only by 0.21% (ok, I'm already quite authoritarian in this state), but nudity by 3.2% and intelligence by 2.1%? Come on! I know, it's possible to come up with some somewhat plausible ad hoc explanation for everything, but this seems much more like overly complicated interrelatedness of stats that just doesn't make sense anymore.

Authoritarianism always drops when Civil Rights rises, Nudity generally rises when Civil Rights does.

Thanks for the effort, but even if all this was on purpose, I think it's still not well-wrought. I assume you wanted to say, the editors did not want to take an official stand on either side of the argument? I can absolutely relate to that, but it's not good for the game mechanics at all in this particular case. Maybe even more so because of the intercorrelatedness of the stats. In case of this issue they are simply counterintuitive or even just wrong. You might legitimately argue for either side when discussing if legalizing abortion raises or decreases civil rights, but forbidding it is definitely authoritarian, conservative and - as a matter of definition - prolongs the lifespan (!!!) of the unborn child. But all the respective stats fall if you ban abortion. Sorry, still doesn't make sense, even if - or rather, especially if - all the effects and the correlations of the stats are designed like that on purpose.

[Anarcho-Kampuchea]

Option 1 on "It’s UterUs, Not UterYou!" slightly increased taxation in my country. Many of these effects don't really make much sense (like pizza delivery and beverage manufacturing being harmed). If the taxation increase is because it had the effect of making contraception public healthcare then that should be mentioned in the issue. All it said is that contraception should be legal.
https://imgur.com/a/U3UusrL

[Seven Zealous Saints]

Option 1 on "It’s UterUs, Not UterYou!" slightly increased taxation in my country. Many of these effects don't really make much sense (like pizza delivery and beverage manufacturing being harmed). If the taxation increase is because it had the effect of making contraception public healthcare then that should be mentioned in the issue. All it said is that contraception should be legal.
https://imgur.com/a/U3UusrL

No, they don't. It looks as if they tried to set up the whole system extra-smart by correlating many of the stats instead of just independently add or subtract a little amount for each issue if relevant. Now you see all these weird things happening that have nothing to do with the issue at stake.

[Thomasi]

I would love for more realistic sinarios to be brought forwards, half the time all the options are shit. They should all have an option that is clearly pointing you either to the left or right (economically), or Authoritarian or Libertarian.

[Umbratellus]

I would love for more realistic sinarios to be brought forwards, half the time all the options are shit. They should all have an option that is clearly pointing you either to the left or right (economically), or Authoritarian or Libertarian.

Not every political issue is arbitrarily reduced to a neat pop-sci four corner grid. What issues in particular do you think fail to provide adequate options?

[Thomasi]

I would love for more realistic sinarios to be brought forwards, half the time all the options are shit. They should all have an option that is clearly pointing you either to the left or right (economically), or Authoritarian or Libertarian.

Not every political issue is arbitrarily reduced to a neat pop-sci four corner grid. What issues in particular do you think fail to provide adequate options?

For example the share bikes being stolen

"Police must stand around 24/7" "That's the businesses problem" "Make them cardboard to be eco friendly"

Like what?

Where is the up security around the area.

[Ciscannia]

i'm assuming the option to up the security would be the first one

[Umbratellus]

Not every political issue is arbitrarily reduced to a neat pop-sci four corner grid. What issues in particular do you think fail to provide adequate options?

For example the share bikes being stolen

"Police must stand around 24/7" "That's the businesses problem" "Make them cardboard to be eco friendly"

Like what?

Where is the up security around the area.

That’s literally the have the police protect the bikes option?

[Thomasi]

For example the share bikes being stolen

"Police must stand around 24/7" "That's the businesses problem" "Make them cardboard to be eco friendly"

Like what?

Where is the up security around the area.

That’s literally the have the police protect the bikes option?

Yes but its like 24/7 post patrol which is over the top, I guess I'm just nitpicking lol.

[Anarres]

The name of the nation that had this effect

Anarres

The day that this effect was encountered

Thursday, 28 July 2022, 08:55:38 UTC

The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue

#1438, Push Polling.

I selected option 2 (with the result "the nation's democracy attracts huddled masses yearning to breathe free"), which introduced 'Public Protest' as a policy.

My Political Freedom score went down from 97/100 to 96/100 (off memory the reported change was maybe -1.8%). Is this because according to the option text now demonstrations happen in cordoned-off areas rather than anywhere? In that case was there no option to keep the Political Freedom score intact? It's a plausible result for a nation that already has a high PF score but seems unintuitive, especially paired with the result + the given policy change.

[Thomasi]

https://www.nationstates.net/page=enact ... ilemma=615

Fruit Juice factory went out of business, the employees came back and decided to run the factory with equal shares.

I chose to let workers of failed businesses take ownership of the business after the owner abandoned it and my economy tanked.

[Verdant Haven]

The name of the nation that had this effect

Anarres

The day that this effect was encountered

Thursday, 28 July 2022, 08:55:38 UTC

The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue

#1438, Push Polling.

I selected option 2 (with the result "the nation's democracy attracts huddled masses yearning to breathe free"), which introduced 'Public Protest' as a policy.

My Political Freedom score went down from 97/100 to 96/100 (off memory the reported change was maybe -1.8%). Is this because according to the option text now demonstrations happen in cordoned-off areas rather than anywhere? In that case was there no option to keep the Political Freedom score intact? It's a plausible result for a nation that already has a high PF score but seems unintuitive, especially paired with the result + the given policy change.

This is a result of being a very new nation. When a nation is newly created, some stats don't exist. They are generated the first time you answer an issue that requires that stat. Because of this, some policies also don't exist on creation, because the stats they're based on haven't been generated yet.

In Push Polling, your response created the stat that Public Protest is based on. If the stat had existed prior to your answer, you would have already had that policy, but it didn't. You actually reduced the freedom to protest (as you said – because you're confining folks to cordoned areas), but you still have sufficient freedoms in that regard that the policy triggered.

There are likely to be several things that cause seemingly unusual or dramatic swings in your early days, as the simulation finds out your responses to things, and your stats and policies catch up with your actual positions.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=enact_dilemma/dilemma=615

Fruit Juice factory went out of business, the employees came back and decided to run the factory with equal shares.

I chose to let workers of failed businesses take ownership of the business after the owner abandoned it and my economy tanked.

You allowed former employees to seize the land, facilities, and equipment of a large business, and basically "squat" an entire factory with everything in it for their own benefit. The precedent of this is that businesses basically have zero rights to what they own. Great for a small group of workers, but just this side of nationalization for telling every business owner in the country to pack up and run before their endeavor gets seized.

[Anarcho-Kampuchea]

Option 2 on "Extra Credit?" lowered my economic freedom for some reason. The option allows credit bureaus to "self-regulate without government interference" so I don't see why that would lower economic freedom.

[Trotterdam]

A Badly Conceived Designation recently unlocked banned y359 "Good Habits" ("Religiously segregate genders"). The most recently-answered issue was #942 option 3, which has nothing to do with religion, and while it might be treating genders somewhat differently, it's definitely not segregating them (the entire point is keeping them close enough that they can ogle each other). Other issues answered in the last 24 hours have even less to do with the subject.

[The Temple of Salvation]

- My nation
- Just now
- 510, option 1

How can option 1 lower spirituality and raise secularism here?? This doesn't make sense at all, since you are following the advice of a street preacher who'd just promote another kind of spirituality - his.

[Verdant Haven]

- My nation
- Just now
- 510, option 1

How can option 1 lower spirituality and raise secularism here?? This doesn't make sense at all, since you are following the advice of a street preacher who'd just promote another kind of spirituality - his.

Banning new age and occult types of religion doesn't mean that everybody who followed them will automatically become orthodox in their beliefs. Certainly some people will follow the offered path and convert to the mainstream, but others will simply reject all available systems in the absence of their preferred one and lose their faith. Converting some believers (new age -> orthodox) while losing others (new age -> none) is a net loss for spirituality, and net gain for secularism.

[The Temple of Salvation]

- My nation
- Just now
- 510, option 1

How can option 1 lower spirituality and raise secularism here?? This doesn't make sense at all, since you are following the advice of a street preacher who'd just promote another kind of spirituality - his.

Banning new age and occult types of religion doesn't mean that everybody who followed them will automatically become orthodox in their beliefs. Certainly some people will follow the offered path and convert to the mainstream, but others will simply reject all available systems in the absence of their preferred one and lose their faith. Converting some believers (new age -> orthodox) while losing others (new age -> none) is a net loss for spirituality, and net gain for secularism.

That explanation was something I ruminated about as well, but it didn't seem logical, because some people will also simply not give up their faith, whatever the government does. I guess the majority won't simply become atheists or at least indifferent towards spirituality. So the rather extreme loss and raise in secularism is unbalanced. And quite arbitrary.

[Anarcho-Kampuchea]

Option 3 on "The War to End All Wars" lowered freedom from taxation by 0.08%. I know it's a small drop but it doesn't really make sense considering the option said money should be returned to the taxpayers. Even weirder, I didn't see taxation increasing despite freedom from taxation lowering.

[Theythemistan]

Option 2 on "A Switch in Time Kills Nine" had the effect of banning computers. The issue never said anything about banning computers, just using sundials to measure time.

[Bears Armed]

Brocken Brackh, about half an hour ago.
#915, 'Clasp of Controversy'.
Option 2.
Bearing in mind the fact that its Effect line is "the nation is @@REGION@@'s leading manufacturer of intricately-patterned sweaters', shouldn't designing & knitting those patterns be worth +1.00 to 'Most Cultured'? It not having this effect seems strange when the option in another issue about so-called "Naughty Knitters" putting knitted covers on road-signs does do so seems a bit strange.

[Verdant Haven]

Option 3 on "The War to End All Wars" lowered freedom from taxation by 0.08%. I know it's a small drop but it doesn't really make sense considering the option said money should be returned to the taxpayers. Even weirder, I didn't see taxation increasing despite freedom from taxation lowering.

Taxation is a tough one - especially given the fact that the visible tax rate and the "Freedom from taxation" stats aren't precise inversions of each other. The model is fairly simplistic - there's a bit more about this in the first post of this FAQ talking about why Tax sometimes doesn't change the way expected, and what's actually being measured.

While I can't be 100% sure about the specifics of what happened, if I had to guess I would say that this is related to the scales of the scores in question. Taxation is fairly tightly bounded, and you already have a very low tax rate. Because the decrease in taxes from this decision was likely minor, the percentage decrease was probably too small for it to show up as a stat (it often gets increasingly difficult to make visible changes around the higher and lower ranges of a score). Meanwhile, whatever burden of taxation was taken off income taxes went instead to businesses or other sources, and because the Freedom from Taxation stat isn't as tightly bounded as Taxation is, the change was a visible number.

Option 2 on "A Switch in Time Kills Nine" had the effect of banning computers. The issue never said anything about banning computers, just using sundials to measure time.

It does actually specifically mention making computers useless:

"Yes, slight differences in each city’s clocks might make train timetables and computers and such trivialities a little bit useless..."

(All modern computers function off precise clock systems - no digital clocks = no possible way to have a functioning computer)

Brocken Brackh, about half an hour ago.
#915, 'Clasp of Controversy'.
Option 2.
Bearing in mind the fact that its Effect line is "the nation is @@REGION@@'s leading manufacturer of intricately-patterned sweaters', shouldn't designing & knitting those patterns be worth +1.00 to 'Most Cultured'? It not having this effect seems strange when the option in another issue about so-called "Naughty Knitters" putting knitted covers on road-signs does do so seems a bit strange.

Bear in mind that effects are based on the option text, not the description line (which is typically meant more for humor value than literal interpretation, at least in the last 5+ years). I do understand the query though, for sure. I suspect the difference lies in the scale of the activity.

Issue 888, with the Naughty Knitters, suggests "using some of those taxes we’ve all been paying to fund arts and crafts for everyone" while 915 only suggests that you personally should wear brighter colors. The former is instituting a nation-wide program, while the latter is merely an internal government thing. Both issues do help out your weaving industry, but 888 has a larger effect, and is accompanied by the general boost to culture as well.

[Bears Armed]

Brocken Brackh, about half an hour ago.
#915, 'Clasp of Controversy'.
Option 2.
Bearing in mind the fact that its Effect line is "the nation is @@REGION@@'s leading manufacturer of intricately-patterned sweaters', shouldn't designing & knitting those patterns be worth +1.00 to 'Most Cultured'? It not having this effect seems strange when the option in another issue about so-called "Naughty Knitters" putting knitted covers on road-signs does do so seems a bit strange.

Bear in mind that effects are based on the option text, not the description line (which is typically meant more for humor value than literal interpretation, at least in the last 5+ years). I do understand the query though, for sure. I suspect the difference lies in the scale of the activity.

Issue 888, with the Naughty Knitters, suggests "using some of those taxes we’ve all been paying to fund arts and crafts for everyone" while 915 only suggests that you personally should wear brighter colors. The former is instituting a nation-wide program, while the latter is merely an internal government thing. Both issues do help out your weaving industry, but 888 has a larger effect, and is accompanied by the general boost to culture as well.

Okay, fair enough. Thank you for answering.

[Cataleenia]

- The name of the nation that had this effect
Cataleenia
- The day that this effect was encountered
Friday 5th August 2022 (UK Time)
- The name of the issue, and if you know it, the number of the issue.
#652: Mayday! Mayday!

I answered the issue but I had no stats change, I have a screenshot

if required.

[Tinhampton]

I answered the issue but I had no stats change

This is not extraordinary. You cannot expect your stats to change every time you answer an issue.

[Drongonia]

After answering issue #548, Appointment of a Science Advisor:

After I chose option two which supports the industry-friendly science advisor, not only did my environmental beauty drop by 40% (totally disproportionate), but despite my largest economic sectors (in manufacturing) all growing by at least ~0.5%, my overall economic output dropped by a massive 0.65%, which doesn't sound like a lot but is the largest single decrease I've seen in a while.

In my mind that doesn't make sense. I understand that there will be some impact in the agricultural sector, but in a nation such as mine where the manufacturing industry is at over 50,000 and the agricultural one is under 10,000 - I don't think the issue effects are weighted properly.