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Inter-Jurisdictional Liability

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Bears Armed Mission
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Inter-Jurisdictional Liability

Postby Bears Armed Mission » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:35 am

“Hokay, back to the more serious side of business…”

Inter-Jurisdictional Liability

Category/etc:
Advancement of Industry (Tort Reform)


Description: The World Assembly,

Acknowledging the general right of people and organisations involved in contracts or other agreements for the provision of goods or services to bring law-suits against the other parties involved if they think that the agreed terms of those deals have not properly been met,

Aware that many such agreements and contracts are made between parties based in different legal jurisdictions, and in some cases also involve actions to be taken in further jurisdictions as well,

Concerned that in cases where such arrangements do overlap jurisdictions plaintiffs might deliberately choose to bring suit through whichever legal system offers them the highest chances of success and high compensation, even if that jurisdiction is not one that would actually seem most reasonable in terms of relevance to the deal, and not only that might such ‘shopping around’ be unfair to the other parties involved but also that even the potential for it to occur might itself inhibit inter-jurisdictional trade,

Recognising that the laws and processes applicable in such cases are likely to differ between jurisdictions, and that people might not be aware of how any foreign jurisdictions within which they potentially might have to bring cases operate in this respect,

Noting also that there is currently no WA legislation requiring member nations to recognise debts incurred by their residents either through involvement in international commercial arrangements or while travelling abroad,

Wishing to resolve these problems, in order to enhance the fairness and viability of inter-jurisdictional trade;

Hereby,

1). Accepts that national and sub-national authorities have a reasonable right to set and enforce minimum allowable standards for the quality of goods and services to be produced within, imported into and/or exported from their jurisdictions;

2.) Requires that any authorities within WA member nations who do set and enforce quality standards on trade do so on a fair and equable basis;

3). Declares that anybody supplying goods or services commercially and legally to or from anywhere within the WA’s membership may specify in the contract or other agreement involved (with clearly-displayed conditions of sale counting as such) that one particular jurisdiction within the WA’s membership is the only one where any law-suits regarding that arrangement other than cases for failure to meet relevant quality standards can be brought, as long as that jurisdiction would be reasonably relevant either to the supplier’s business as a whole or to this deal in particular anyway, and that if they do this then
A/ No case (other than for failure to meet relevant quality standards) can legally be brought against them in this matter anywhere else within any WA member nation;
B/ No legal authorities within WA member nations can enforce judgements made about this matter by courts located in any jurisdiction other than the one specified;
C/ Except as limited by any other relevant GA resolutions, any judgements made about this matter by courts within the specified jurisdiction must be recognised as valid by all other jurisdictions within WA member nations and any financial payments that any party to these cases is legally required to make due to those judgements must be treated as collectable within those other jurisdictions through the same processes that would be used for collecting payments specified as required due to cases within those jurisdictions’ own courts;

4). Directs [COMMITTEE] to establish and operate an International Library of Commercial Law; Instructs all WA member nations to supply this Library with full copies of their relevant legislation, and with accurate annual reports summarising how they have handled relevant cases; Instructs this Library to collect comparable data about non-members’ legal systems as well where this is possible; and Orders this Library to make its information available upon request in exchange for reasonable fees;

5.) Instructs [COMMITTEE] to maintain an accurate list of any jurisdictions outside of the WA’s membership that voluntarily announce and demonstrate full willingness to comply with this resolution’s terms as though they were actually bound by WA law, and Requires all member-nations to treat those jurisdictions as though they were indeed within the WA for the purposes of this resolution.


“The references to “[COMMITTEE]” in this draft will be replaced by the name an appropriate pre-existing WA agency once we’ve decided hwhich one best fits this role.
“Ourr original plan was that this proposal would also cover the collection of debts in general across jurisdictional boundaries, or at least of all debts due to commercial arrangements, in addition to the collection of those payments required due to legal cases brought within this resolution’s terms. However we have now decided that that factor would work better as the subject for a
separate proposal — which would probably in the ‘Free Trade’ category, or maybeso as ‘Moral Decency’, depending on its main emphasis — instead.
"Yes, we do realise that the current draft is rrather too long to be submitted in its present form, but we're showing it to you now to hear responses before continuing with -- or dropping -- this project."



Ursiosina RedRose,
Commercial Attaché,
Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly.

_____________________________________________________________________

OOC: My original version of the preamble’s 3rd cause included a suggestion that such ‘shopping around’ might actually result in some jurisdictions adjusting their laws accordingly, in order to attract cases into their legal systems, so that they could profit from legal fees and perhaps even take a cut of the fines imposed. I’ve dropped this argument for now, although bearing in mind how some governments here in NS behave I still do suspect that some jurisdictions might behave thus…
Last edited by Bears Armed Mission on Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Christian Democrats
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Postby Christian Democrats » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:37 pm

4389 characters. I'll read this once you get it below the 3500-character limit.
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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:10 pm

Bears Armed Mission wrote:OOC: My original version of the preamble’s 3rd cause included a suggestion that such ‘shopping around’ might actually result in some jurisdictions adjusting their laws accordingly, in order to attract cases into their legal systems, so that they could profit from legal fees and perhaps even take a cut of the fines imposed. I’ve dropped this argument for now, although bearing in mind how some governments here in NS behave I still do suspect that some jurisdictions might behave thus…


OOC: My first thought was that if IRL Russian businessmen can go to the U.K. to sue an American magazine publisher for allegedly libelous statements written and primarily published in the U.S. about activities allegedly taking place in Russia, NS parties and countries can and will enthusiastically avail themselves of someone's (for example, mine :p ) unusually stringent commercial law. On the other hand, with the protections of 3.A and 3.B in place, parties are able to specify the jurisdiction that will handle their disputes, just as they do IRL, without worrying about lawsuits from out of left field. If they don't bother to so specify when drafting their contracts, it's not the WA's job to hold their hand. In short I don't see this as a worry with this draft as written.

IC: A good opening draft, Ambassador RedRose. We support the requirements as specified, and look forward to seeing them carried through to the more concise version.
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The Dark Star Republic
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Dark Star Republic » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:17 pm

"Your delegation has a habit of trying to sneak blocking language into drafts and then summoning up torturous legalisms after the fact to defend them. Before we offer comments on the substantive section we'd like to be certain that Article 1 isn't an attempt at this."

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Old Hope
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Ex-Nation

Postby Old Hope » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:46 pm

3). Declares that anybody supplying goods or services commercially and legally to or from anywhere within the WA’s membership may specify in the contract or other agreement involved (with clearly-displayed conditions of sale counting as such) that one particular jurisdiction within the WA’s membership is the only one where any law-suits regarding that arrangement other than cases for failure to meet relevant quality standards can be brought, as long as that jurisdiction would be reasonably relevant either to the supplier’s business as a whole or to this deal in particular anyway, and that if they do this then
A/ No case (other than for failure to meet relevant quality standards) can legally be brought against them in this matter anywhere else within any WA member nation;
B/ No legal authorities within WA member nations can enforce judgements made about this matter by courts located in any jurisdiction other than the one specified;
C/ Except as limited by any other relevant GA resolutions, any judgements made about this matter by courts within the specified jurisdiction must be recognised as valid by all other jurisdictions within WA member nations and any financial payments that any party to these cases is legally required to make due to those judgements must be treated as collectable within those other jurisdictions through the same processes that would be used for collecting payments specified as required due to cases within those jurisdictions’ own courts;

All international trade companies now reside in G.
All contracts they make in other countries specify G as the relevant jurisdiction.
The judges of G are corrupt, and under the influence of those corporations.
They always rule in favor of those international trade companies, and order heavy fines regularly.
Can this dystopian possibility be stopped?
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Chester Pearson
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Postby Chester Pearson » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:56 pm

Yeah.... No. This is not happening, and The Federation will fight tooth and nail against this attempted corruption.
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Bears Armed Mission
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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:10 am

The Dark Star Republic wrote:"Your delegation has a habit of trying to sneak blocking language into drafts and then summoning up torturous legalisms after the fact to defend them. Before we offer comments on the substantive section we'd like to be certain that Article 1 isn't an attempt at this."

~ Daisy Chinmusic
Legislative Intern

"No, it isn't an attempt at blocking anything, Quite the reverse, in fact: Quality standards for imports & exports are one aspect of this overall topic on which we considered it reasonable for the different jurisdictions to retain the right to bring and hear cases, and so we didn't want this proposal to block that."

Old Hope wrote:
All international trade companies now reside in G.
All contracts they make in other countries specify G as the relevant jurisdiction.
The judges of G are corrupt, and under the influence of those corporations.
They always rule in favor of those international trade companies, and order heavy fines regularly.
Can this dystopian possibility be stopped?

"The ILCL records this fact, and (upon request) passes the information on to concerned governments elsewhere.
Those governments publish warnings to their people against dealing with companies based in G, or simply pass laws [which this proposed resolution would not block] against such deals except where they are explicitly allowed under other resolutions.
Those companies thus lose a lot of business, and the ones with sensible leadership relocate back out of G.
Problem stopped.

"Anticipating that possibility was one of the main reasons why we included the creation of ILCL in this proposal."


Ursiosina RedRose,
Commercial Attaché, Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly
Last edited by Bears Armed Mission on Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ainocra
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Postby Ainocra » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:59 pm

If an Ainocran citizen is harmed by a product manufactured in Canada for example, are you trying to prevent them from suing the manufacturer in Ainocran court?
Because it sure looks that way to me.
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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:27 pm

Ainocra wrote:If an Ainocran citizen is harmed by a product manufactured in Canada for example, are you trying to prevent them from suing the manufacturer in Ainocran court?
Because it sure looks that way to me.

It doesn't to me. Bad quality is mentioned as an exception.
"The ILCL records this fact, and (upon request) passes the information on to concerned governments elsewhere.
Those governments publish warnings to their people against dealing with companies based in G, or simply pass laws [which this proposed resolution would not block] against such deals except where they are explicitly allowed under other resolutions.
Those companies thus lose a lot of business, and the ones with sensible leadership relocate back out of G.
Problem stopped.

"Anticipating that possibility was one of the main reasons why we included the creation of ILCL in this proposal."

This proposal would block any laws against the addition of such enforcement clauses.
Yeah, and there is not just one G out here. There are hundreds of corrupt member states. And the corporations can reside anywhere- they can simply just trade in G to open up this possibillity.
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Bears Armed Mission
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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:23 am

OOC: flying visit … no time to read newer comments now, but will take copy to read offline.

Oops! Thinking further on the matter overnight, I’ve realised what TDSR meant. Yes, this might block future GA legislation on product quality. That honestly was accidental, because when I wrote the clause concerned I was only thinking about not letting this proposal itself block national legislation on the subject.
Should I change it, to say something along the lines of “except as limited by other GA resolutions”, or would people actually be okay with a blocker.
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The Dark Star Republic
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Postby The Dark Star Republic » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:01 am

Bears Armed Mission wrote:OOC: flying visit … no time to read newer comments now, but will take copy to read offline.

Oops! Thinking further on the matter overnight, I’ve realised what TDSR meant. Yes, this might block future GA legislation on product quality. That honestly was accidental, because when I wrote the clause concerned I was only thinking about not letting this proposal itself block national legislation on the subject.
Should I change it, to say something along the lines of “except as limited by other GA resolutions”, or would people actually be okay with a blocker.

OOC: Yes, that's exactly what I meant, and no, I don't think it should be a blocker.

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Bears Armed Mission
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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:06 am

Ainocra wrote:If an Ainocran citizen is harmed by a product manufactured in Canada for example, are you trying to prevent them from suing the manufacturer in Ainocran court?
Because it sure looks that way to me.

"No, as the current draft’s first two clauses clearly (or so I thought…) state, you’d still be able to enforce your own laws about product safety. This proposal is aimed at law-suits about commercial transactions for other reasons (e.g. late delivery, incomplete delivery, goods not as advertised, late payment, etc) instead, so that both supplier and customer know in advance where any disputes would have to be handled: They might agree to it being Ainocra, they might agree to it being Canada [or some more-local jurisdiciton therein], but neither could then ambush the other with a case brought (on whatever specious grounds) in the courts of yet another nation such as [e.g.] Sleaziistan instead."

Old Hope wrote:
"The ILCL records this fact, and (upon request) passes the information on to concerned governments elsewhere.
Those governments publish warnings to their people against dealing with companies based in G, or simply pass laws [which this proposed resolution would not block] against such deals except where they are explicitly allowed under other resolutions.
Those companies thus lose a lot of business, and the ones with sensible leadership relocate back out of G.
Problem stopped.

"Anticipating that possibility was one of the main reasons why we included the creation of ILCL in this proposal."

This proposal would block any laws against the addition of such enforcement clauses.

"What makes you think so?
"Because clause #3 states explicitly that it applies if the transaction is taking place legally it implicitly acknowledges the possibility that some transactions
wouldn't be legal, and as it doesn't explcitly ban national legislation on the subject such as I mentioned before it must be taken as allowing it."

Old Hope wrote:Yeah, and there is not just one G out here. There are hundreds of corrupt member states. And the corporations can reside anywhere- they can simply just trade in G to open up this possibillity.

"So ministries of trade, trading standards authorities, consumer protection organisations, local equivalents of 'Hwhich' magazine, and so on, can consult the ILCL and then publish lists of jurisdictions whose courts people might prefer not to rely on... or whitelists of "approved" jurisdictions, instead, or both..."

:eyebrow:
"And do I really need to point out both that
'corporations' isn't synonymous with 'big business', and that it might not necessarily be the "bigger" party who's at fault in a deal anyhows?"


Ursiosina RedRose,
Commercial Attaché, Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly.

____________________________________________________________________________

The Dark Star Republic wrote:
Bears Armed Mission wrote:OOC: flying visit … no time to read newer comments now, but will take copy to read offline.

Oops! Thinking further on the matter overnight, I’ve realised what TDSR meant. Yes, this might block future GA legislation on product quality. That honestly was accidental, because when I wrote the clause concerned I was only thinking about not letting this proposal itself block national legislation on the subject.
Should I change it, to say something along the lines of “except as limited by other GA resolutions”, or would people actually be okay with a blocker.

OOC: Yes, that's exactly what I meant, and no, I don't think it should be a blocker.

OOC: Okay. As I need to reduce the character-count anyhows, what I'll probably do about this point is replace clauses #1 & #2 with a single clause that says something like
Requires that any member nation [or political subidvision of a member nation] that has and enforces laws about quality standards for goods or services imported into or exported from their territory does so on a fair and equable basis;
Better?
Last edited by Bears Armed Mission on Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:30 pm

At the moment we would have to also be completely opposed. We have the following issues:

1) It appears as currently worded to completely override all local consumer protection laws.
2) It is not specified as relevant to business to business contracts only.
3) The forum selection wording is not nearly restrictive enough.
4) It seems to apply to completely domestic transactions too (EG a consumer in Bananaistan buying from a business based in Bananaistan that also has a brass plate office in Ballygobackwards could end up having to go to the Ballygobackwards courts)
5) A country can have an interest in setting standards for far more tha quality (EG advertising descriptions, equality law, etc)
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Bears Armed Mission
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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:38 am

Bananaistan wrote:At the moment we would have to also be completely opposed. We have the following issues:

1) It appears as currently worded to completely override all local consumer protection laws.
2) It is not specified as relevant to business to business contracts only.
3) The forum selection wording is not nearly restrictive enough.
4) It seems to apply to completely domestic transactions too (EG a consumer in Bananaistan buying from a business based in Bananaistan that also has a brass plate office in Ballygobackwards could end up having to go to the Ballygobackwards courts)
5) A country can have an interest in setting standards for far more than quality (EG advertising descriptions, equality law, etc)

“In reply to your point #1: Not for trading deals that take place solely within a single jurisdiction, it wouldn’t; whilst in the case of trading deals that do cross jurisdictional boundaries the local consumer laws of whichever relevant jurisdiction the parties to that deal had agreed was the one whose laws would apply would apply… and, as I’ve already explained to Marshal Enta, the wording says that it only applies if the transaction is taking place legally and there’s nothing to keep your government from saying that goods and services can’t be offered legally to your people unless the deal specifically says that it’s your laws that are the relevant ones.
“What this proposed resolution would do is ensure that all parties to the deal knew in advance which set of laws would apply…
“And don’t forget that it would apply to
‘producer protection’ laws as well as to ‘consumer protection’ laws, too.”

“In reply to your point #2: This draft specifically says that that the right to specify a relevant jurisdiction applies to the contracts or other agreements involved when anybody is
“supplying goods or services commercially and legally”, hwhich means clearly that you wouldn’t be required to apply these proposed rules law to non-commercial deals too: Isn’t that enough? Hwhat other types of contract would you actually be worried about here, and — for that matter — why would allowing them to specify the relevant jurisdiction for hearing any later disputes about their terms be such a bad thing anyhows?”

“In reply to your point #3, I’m not exactly sure hwhat you’re getting at: Please clarify.”

“In reply to your point #4: This would only apply (and says so) if the provision of goods or services itself crosses jurisdictional boundaries, so if a nation — such as your own
Bananaistan, for example — constitutes a single legal jurisdiction for such purposes then “completely domestic transactions” therein would not be affected.
“As the draft is currently written, domestic transactions that involved the supply of goods or services across jurisdictional boundaries within one single nation would be affected, yes… but, now that the point has been raised we are certainly willing to alter the wording so that it applies only in the case of international trade instead.”

“And in response to your point #5: I point out that the clause hwhich concerns you only applies if the goods or services concerned are being provided
“legally”, and that there is nothing to keep you from saying that goods or services that don’t comply with your standards can’t legally be offered for sale to your people on the first paw…”

“Oh, and will you — and other people, too, for that matter — people please note also that according to this draft’s current wording the jurisdiction specified in a contract (or other commercial arrangement) as the relevant one for bringing cases about that deal would have to be
“within the WA’s membership”, so that any member nation’s government hwhich is concerned about the possible abuse of this proposed resolution through “a brass plate office in Ballygobackwards” could approach that situation by attempting a resolution to limit the legal scope for such offices… Hwhich might not be that bad an idea for a resolution, in itself, for true.”

Ursiosina RedRose,
Commercial Attaché,
Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly.
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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:47 am

Bears Armed Mission wrote:“In reply to your point #1: Not for trading deals that take place solely within a single jurisdiction, it wouldn’t; whilst in the case of trading deals that do cross jurisdictional boundaries the local consumer laws of whichever relevant jurisdiction the parties to that deal had agreed was the one whose laws would apply would apply… and, as I’ve already explained to Marshal Enta, the wording says that it only applies if the transaction is taking place legally and there’s nothing to keep your government from saying that goods and services can’t be offered legally to your people unless the deal specifically says that it’s your laws that are the relevant ones.
“What this proposed resolution would do is ensure that all parties to the deal knew in advance which set of laws would apply…
“And don’t forget that it would apply to
‘producer protection’ laws as well as to ‘consumer protection’ laws, too.”

Maybe I'm missing it but as far as I can see there is nothing in the resolution which clearly states that it only applies to cross border transactions.

“In reply to your point #2: This draft specifically says that that the right to specify a relevant jurisdiction applies to the contracts or other agreements involved when anybody is “supplying goods or services commercially and legally”, hwhich means clearly that you wouldn’t be required to apply these proposed rules law to non-commercial deals too: Isn’t that enough? Hwhat other types of contract would you actually be worried about here, and — for that matter — why would allowing them to specify the relevant jurisdiction for hearing any later disputes about their terms be such a bad thing anyhows?”

I'm referring to business to consumer transactions (which are still commercial transactions). It is our opinion that such transactions should be subject to local consumer protection law rather than international contract law. If the proposal solely dealt with business to business transactions we would consider supporting it.

“In reply to your point #3, I’m not exactly sure hwhat you’re getting at: Please clarify.”

What I mean is that the phrase "reasonably relevant" is not restrictive enough. It allows for the jurisdiction wherein the supplier has a brass plate office to be the relevant jurisdiction. In our opinion the only relevant jurisdiction should be the place of manufacture of greatest part of the goods by the supplier is done (EG wherever the most work is done on the product), where the supplier sales office dealing with the transaction is (if, say, the supplier purchases completed finished goods to sell on they shouldn't have the option of the place of manufacture) or the place of supply.

Regarding supply of services, we could not support anything other than the place of supply. I would note that I would regard the place of supply of services as reasonably easy to establish, and is either the place where the supplier or the consumer is established. I couldn't support allowing supply of services to be adjudicated on anywhere other that the two places. (OOC: I note that for B2B services, the EU for VAT purposes just says that in all cases the place of supply for taxation is where the receiver is established, whereas for B2C it's where the supplier is established.)

“In reply to your point #4: This would only apply (and says so) if the provision of goods or services itself crosses jurisdictional boundaries, so if a nation — such as your own Bananaistan, for example — constitutes a single legal jurisdiction for such purposes then “completely domestic transactions” therein would not be affected.
“As the draft is currently written, domestic transactions that involved the supply of goods or services across jurisdictional boundaries within one single nation would be affected, yes… but, now that the point has been raised we are certainly willing to alter the wording so that it applies only in the case of international trade instead.”

Excellent, we would support this change to clarify the scope of the proposal.

“And in response to your point #5: I point out that the clause hwhich concerns you only applies if the goods or services concerned are being provided “legally”, and that there is nothing to keep you from saying that goods or services that don’t comply with your standards can’t legally be offered for sale to your people on the first paw…”

“Oh, and will you — and other people, too, for that matter — people please note also that according to this draft’s current wording the jurisdiction specified in a contract (or other commercial arrangement) as the relevant one for bringing cases about that deal would have to be
“within the WA’s membership”, so that any member nation’s government hwhich is concerned about the possible abuse of this proposed resolution through “a brass plate office in Ballygobackwards” could approach that situation by attempting a resolution to limit the legal scope for such offices… Hwhich might not be that bad an idea for a resolution, in itself, for true.”

Ursiosina RedRose,
Commercial Attaché,
Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly.


I'd rather we get it right in this proposal. We'd prefer not to have to hinder international trade into and out of Bananaistan merely to protect consumers because of bad international law when we could just as easy pass good international law which would need us to start limiting imports of otherwise acceptable goods and services. We'd also note that there are other legitimate reasons why brass plate offices shouldn't be restricted but we wouldn't like to have to do so. We would like to see this proposal restricting businesses using brass plate offices to obtain the jurisdiction most favourable to them for the purposes of this proposal, and the place to do that is in this proposal.

In summary, we would support this if:
- it applies only to international business to business transactions, and
- the jurisdiction proposed by the supplier is either the place of supply or the primary place where the product or service is sold from or if the supplier manufactures the goods, the place where they are manufactured.

Ofc we would support allowing the two entities agree on any jurisdiction they so wish but if the receiver doesn't agree, we think that it should restricted as per our second summary point.
Delegation of the People's Republic of Bananaistan to the World Assembly
Head of delegation and the Permanent Representative: Comrade Ambassador Theodorus "Ted" Hornwood
General Assistant and Head of Security: Comrade Watchman Brian of Tarth
There was the Pope and John F. Kennedy and Jack Charlton and the three of them were staring me in the face.
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Bears Armed Mission
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Posts: 862
Founded: Jul 26, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed Mission » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:46 am

Bananaistan wrote:Maybe I'm missing it but as far as I can see there is nothing in the resolution which clearly states that it only applies to cross border transactions.

"It says that...
"Ur'rmm."

:blush:
"Hokay, that detail does seem to have been cut -- accidentally -- at some point during the preliminary drafting process. The text will be corrected accordingly."

Ursiosina RedRose,
Commercial Attaché,
Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly.

[OOC: I'll reply to the rest of your comments in a day or three, when I've had more time to think about them.)
Last edited by Bears Armed Mission on Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
A diplomatic mission from Bears Armed, formerly stationed at the W.A. . Population = either thirty-two or sixty-four staff, maybe plus some dependents.

GA & SC Resolution Author

Ardchoille says: “Bears can be depended on for decent arguments even when there aren't any”.


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