The Miniluv Messenger: Big Brother is Watching Gameplay

[Ynys Prydain]

Members of The Pacific do the exact same thing in Lazarus, then illegally, under Lazarus law of the time, kick out citizens that opposed their rule, overthrow the democratic government, establish a dictatorship, and join the FRA and no one cares. Not even news worthy.

A few people try to do way, way less than that in TEP, and it's the single most important news story of our time.

As noted, this first of all isn't even true. The Lazarene purge is frequently brought up, both by those who were actually purged and others (it was, for example, noted in the Osiran declaration of war against Lazarus). It has been brought up nearly every time Lazarus has posted anything in the Gameplay forum since the purge occurred.

I would know, I'm the one who most often brings it up.

Second, I'm not sure what you're saying here. The NPO did something bad in Lazarus more than a year ago, everyone go pay some more attention to that and totally ignore what the independent old guard of TSP and TEP are doing right now? That's... not going to happen.

[Solorni]

How do you feel about those who are offended by the actions of Belschaft et al and yet support Lazarus? Surely members who have supported and or downplayed the lazarus purges cannot reasonably be expected to be truly offended or bothered by this. Having said that, I find this disappointing and a little bit disheartening. While I understand the motivations for fighting some of the more dangerous characters in nationstates, the solution is not to go undercover like this. People like Belschaft have been involved with this sort of thing a few times too many.

Furthermore, I also take exception to the way cormac has brought this up. If you had an issue with this at the time you should have told Belschaft that you did not believe in this and encourage him to not go down this path. Or even warned the authorities earlier.. or report it right away. Holding on to it to release later is a bit strange. So while I believe what was done was wrong, I think the motives by cormac are not as pure as portrayed.

[Onderkelkia]

In terms of comparing this incident to Lazarus, the most striking comparison exists with the conversation Cormac published showing Feux suggesting to his NPO comrades that he would perform a coup in Lazarus should Griffin win the election there. That conversation was repeatedly trivialised by Unibot and others as merely indicating Feux's frustration with supposed imperialist influence on Lazarus, noting that Feux did not actually go ahead and coup Lazarus.

As it happened, a day after the publication of that conversation, Feux did actually go ahead and perform a coup in Lazarus, albeit in a different context (indeed, previously he had no need to perform a coup as, by a very small margin, he won the vote with Griffin involved in his original discussions with the NPO). Yet Unibot's original defence of the conversation with Feux was that Feux did not actually go ahead and perform the coup, so the conversation should merely be read as having expressed his frustrations over so-called imperialist takeover in Lazarus at that particular moment (precisely the same point could be made in relation to defender idealists in TSP, except that Griffin acted entirely in line with the long-term traditional foreign policy of Lazarus, running it in a neutral way, whereas Glen-Rhodes and Unibot have departed from the approach of the TSP old guard). Considering that a delegate performing an actual coup should he lose re-election is as undemocratic and undermining as it gets, and that Feux ultimately carried out a coup, it is entirely reasonable to point out that it is strange to see some people so enraged by this incident given their dismissive approach to the revelations involving Feux and the NPO.

In this respect, Evil Wolf is entirely right to draw a comparison.

Second, I'm not sure what you're saying here. The NPO did something bad in Lazarus more than a year ago, everyone go pay some more attention to that and totally ignore what the independent old guard of TSP and TEP are doing right now? That's... not going to happen.

On the contrary, ' independent old guard of TSP and TEP' is not doing anything right now. On the other hand, the Lazarus regime which was installed as a result of Feux's coup remains in existence and every moment of that illegitimate regime's continuation is an unfortunate product of that event.

It is apparent, particularly from the version of this post which existed before you were wise enough to edit that content out, that for you these revelations largely represent an attempt at revenge, against Belschaft and others, for their perceived slights against you. That does not necessarily invalidate the substance of your allegations, but it does rather cast doubt on your personal credibility and underlying motivations while railing against this incident.

[Unibot III]

That's hardly an accurate comparison - the Emerald Council approved the removal of NES et. al. and Feux made use of his constitutionally-given residual powers to fulfill their motion.

That's a lot different than some citizens (and others foreign) conspiring to pile an election and another one, a public official, noting he would "find a way" to strike down TRR Treaty. Belschaft was not a delegate with residual powers under the constitution, he was a justice and had no right to try to circumvent a treaty.

[Whiskum]

That's hardly an accurate comparison - the Emerald Council approved the removal of NES et. al. and Feux made use of his constitutionally-given residual powers to fulfill their motion.

That's a lot different than some citizens (and others foreign) conspiring to pile an election and another one, a public official, noting he would "find a way" to strike down TRR Treaty. Belschaft was not a delegate with residual powers under the constitution, he was a justice and had no right to try to circumvent a treaty.

Your remarks only go to Feux's subsequent actions in September. They do not comment on his discussions with fellow NPO officials in March.

In that conversation in March, Feux discussed performing a coup of Lazarus if he lost re-election to Griffin.

In defence of Feux's remarks, your argument was that Feux did not go through with it and he was 'just spilling how frustrated he was'.

Whereas you are outraged over the conversation revealed here, you actively trivialised Feux's conspiracy with the NPO to conduct a coup of Lazarus, despite the fact that precisely the same defences which you invoked on that occasion could be cited here (both regarding the individuals concerned having not gone through with it and regarding their frustration over the power in their regions in the hands of people of different political views and regional affiliations).

Not to mention that in another conversation revealed by Cormac on the same occasion, the one on 25th February, AMOM told Feux he'd 'better get riggin'' the election concerned and Feux replied he'd 'Already did some of that', saying 'I have some "friends" in the council' (that would be the same Emerald Council which you cite as having approved his subsequent coup in September), adding 'And by friends, I mean tools.' In other words, Feux actually piled an election.

As for the purge in September, regardless of the approval granted by Feux's 'tools', it was a illegitimate usurpation of power which involved summarily removing Feux's internal political opponents, following which Lazarus experienced a radical regime change bringing into the defender-NPO sphere.

[Unibot III]

I know what this is. You've read Calandra's playbook. It makes sense now.

The issue is with The South Pacific, not Lazarus. Onderkelkia.

[Glen-Rhodes]

The UIAF isn't allied with TSP anymore, so Onder couldn't care less about violations to TSP's sovereignty. It's not surprising that he'd prefer to re-litigate something that happened nearly a year ago.

[The Dourian Embassy]

I hate to change the subject here, but we seem to be forgetting that GR and Unibot were doing actual vote stacking in TSP. And unlike some of you (apparently) I actually looked at the information that's been released. All I see is planning for a completely reasonable and legal method of counteracting that effort. I'm confused why folks other than Unibot or GR are pretending this is something else.

Of course, I expect Uni and GR to display faux outrage and try to make this about TEP. This only strengthens their hands in TSP, and with any luck they'll hope to use this as a wedge to find new roads into TEP, or at worst use it as a cudgel against those folks they don't like over there. But as for the rest of us, I think we oughta treat this as what it is... some people in TEP were concerned about Unibot and GR's votestacking in TSP, and created a plan to counteract it with an expressly stated purpose of ensuring that those Uni's stackers wouldn't be able to wrest control of TSP from its natives.

There's two whole threads devoted to ensuring that no one breaks the law, and numerous statements that essentially say "We're doing this to only to counteract Unibot's efforts". Which no one can dispute, by the way. Unibot was/is stacking the region with his cronies. And the leaked logs show a genuine concern for the region, government, and natives of TSP.

Unibot, I gotta ask, what was the crime here?

[Glen-Rhodes]

While I understand the motivations for fighting some of the more dangerous characters in nationstates, the solution is not to go undercover like this.

Seriously, Rachel? I'm a "more dangerous character" in this game? I have never conducted myself in this manner. I've never contemplated stacking votes in an election. Nor have I ever talked behind the scenes about how I could abuse my position of authority to strike down treaties I don't like.

Frankly, anybody here who thinks these actions are in any way defensible is a downright joke. If you don't think this is a serious offense, then you don't think regional sovereignty is important at all.

@ Douria, put up or shut up. There has been no stacking in TSP's elections. The only person who freaked out and started begging people to vote and come in from other regions is Belschaft. I didn't even campaign, ffs.

[Yao]

Why can't a discussion about The South Pacific or The East Pacific or how to scramble an egg ever take place without it becoming about Lazarus?

[Onderkelkia]

I know what this is. You've read Calandra's playbook. It makes sense now.

The issue is with The South Pacific, not Lazarus. Onderkelkia.

Once again you completely ignore the question of Feux's conversation, because the disparity between your treatment of the two events is so stark.

Feux admiting to rigging elections in Lazarus, in AMOM's words, and plotting a coup with the NPO was fine as far you were concerned because, at the time when you spoke, he had not actually gone through with it, and because it merely reflected his frustrations with his opponents.Yet the same arguments are applicable here and you condemn the people involved unreservedly.

I am willing to acknowledge that what happened in TSP on this occasion was inadvisable, as Todd McCloud has acknowledged himself.

Yet unlike TSP, Lazarus is still living the results of Feux's actions and your total hypocrisy in dealing with the two issues is utterly astounding.

The comparison in relation to Lazarus began before I entered the discussion. I have merely narrowed the comparison down to the precise issues.

The UIAF isn't allied with TSP anymore

The UIAF was never allied to TSP. TNI was.

Frankly, anybody here who thinks these actions are in any way defensible is a downright joke. If you don't think this is a serious offense, then you don't think regional sovereignty is important at all.

If you are going to make this argument, you should apply precisely the same principle to people's reactions to Feux's plot in Lazarus and his admitted election rigging there, considering the defences invoked by Unibot on that occasion are precisely the same as those invoked in defence of these actions.

[Yao]

Onder, as he and his subordinates have done for a year now, continues to conveniently disregard Griff's coup plot and the imperialist vote-stacking that Feux knew was at play in Griff's favor during the election.

[Yao]

The UIAF isn't allied with TSP anymore

The UIAF was never allied to TSP. TNI was.

LOL.

[Onderkelkia]

Onder, as he and his subordinates have done for a year now, continues to conveniently disregard Griff's coup plot and the imperialist vote-stacking that Feux knew was at play in Griff's favor during the election.

Griffin was not plotting a coup; the suggestion that she was is absurd.

There was no 'imperialist vote-stacking'.

There were individuals who had affiliations to imperialist regions in Lazarus, but no one was telling them how to vote.

On the other hand, Feux admitted in talking to AMOM, when advised that he ' 'better get riggin'', that he 'Already did some of that', referring to his friends on the Council, before clarifying ''And by friends, I mean tools.' Feux's misconduct was demonstrably far more than flagrant than anything involving Griffin.

[Kringalia]

This only strengthens their hands in TSP, and with any luck they'll hope to use this as a wedge to find new roads into TEP, or at worst use it as a cudgel against those folks they don't like over there. But as for the rest of us, I think we oughta treat this as what it is... some people in TEP were concerned about Unibot and GR's votestacking in TSP, and created a plan to counteract it with an expressly stated purpose of ensuring that those Uni's stackers wouldn't be able to wrest control of TSP from its natives.

Thanks for saying South Pacificans are incapable of electing their own leaders without foreign interference. I would suggest that perhaps we actually believed Unibot would make a good Chair of the Assembly, but that is a crazy thought. Right?

[Yao]

Onder, as he and his subordinates have done for a year now, continues to conveniently disregard Griff's coup plot and the imperialist vote-stacking that Feux knew was at play in Griff's favor during the election.

Griffin was not plotting a coup; the suggestion that she was is absurd.

There was no 'imperialist vote-stacking'.

There were individuals who had affiliations to imperialist regions in Lazarus, but no one was telling them how to vote.

On the other hand, Feux admitted in talking to AMOM, when advised that he ' 'better get riggin'', that he 'Already did some of that', referring to his friends on the Council, before clarifying ''And by friends, I mean tools.' Feux's misconduct was demonstrably far more than flagrant than anything involving Griffin.

If you actually think this, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. lol

But yeah, nice avoidance of my pointing out how absurd it is to claim you haven't acted like UIAF has an alliance with TSP in the past.

[Yao]

The UIAF was never allied to TSP. TNI was.

This victory reflects the close military cooperation and friendship existing between the UIAF and The South Pacific.

Here, the UIAF's priority was to maximise the chance of inflicting a defeat on another region LKE and TNI are at war with, the GGR, as well as to strike a blow against fascism in NationStates and to act in furtherance of our alliance with TSP.

Convenient, right?

[Glen-Rhodes]

If you are going to make this argument, you should apply precisely the same principle to people's reactions to Feux's plot in Lazarus and his admitted election rigging there, considering the defences invoked by Unibot on that occasion are precisely the same as those invoked in defence of these actions.

Two things. 1. My stance on the Lazarus purge is readily available through the forum search tool. 2. If you're going to attack Unibot's own stance on Lazarus for inconsistency, be consistent yourself. Either you think what happened in Lazarus was wrong and what Todd McCloud and Belschaft were planning on doing in TSP was just as wrong, or you think both were fair ways to play the game. I'm not convinced you'll be consistent at all. But then again, I don't really need to care anymore.

The fact is, TSP blacklisted the UDL for these same types of fraudulent activities, with far less evidence than what we have here. Several respected and upstanding members of the GCR community conspired to undermine the electoral process of TSP, because they don't like that I don't toe the Independent-imperialist line. In a fit of paranoia, anger, jealously, or whatever, they devised a four month step-by-step plan to infiltrate TSP for the sole purpose of rigging the November 2014 elections in favor of Belschaft and whoever else they would run. This is deplorable behavior. Recognition of it as anything less is unacceptable.

Lastly, I want to say something about apologies, since several have been given now. Apologies are great, but they don't make consequences unnecessary. I appreciate Todd's apology and the apologies of other TEPers who were involved. They seem truly remorseful for their actions. Belschaft's apology was posted on TSP's forums, but it was less of an apology and more of an attempt to deflect blame onto Todd and paint himself as the lost soul who found his way back into righteousness. That's very disappointing, but I'm not sure I expected anything else. The consequences will be delivered in TSP shortly for those involved.

But the response on these forums is predictably a huge let down. I can tell who will think this is a big deal, a serious violation of TSP's sovereignty, merely by knowing how that person leans in gameplay politics. When the hell are we going to start placing the sovereignty of GCRs above the political divisions of how regions use their military forces? This is ridiculous.

[Onderkelkia]

Griffin was not plotting a coup; the suggestion that she was is absurd.

There was no 'imperialist vote-stacking'.

There were individuals who had affiliations to imperialist regions in Lazarus, but no one was telling them how to vote.

On the other hand, Feux admitted in talking to AMOM, when advised that he ' 'better get riggin'', that he 'Already did some of that', referring to his friends on the Council, before clarifying ''And by friends, I mean tools.' Feux's misconduct was demonstrably far more than flagrant than anything involving Griffin.

If you actually think this, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. lol

I have laid out my evidence in relation to Feux's actions, namely those conversation logs.

If you wish to attack Griffin's actions, I am happy to consider any evidence you produce. However, instead you resort to meaningless comments.

But yeah, nice avoidance of my pointing out how absurd it is to claim you haven't acted like UIAF has an alliance with TSP in the past.

At the time of my reply, you had never actually said anything beyond 'LOL', which is hardly something capable of being refuted.

The UIAF has no alliances. It serves the LKE, TNI and Albion by combining their militaries and carrying out operations at their governments' requests.

If a region is allied to one of the UIAF's participating regions, then naturally the UIAF will carry out military operations on instructions from that participating region (unless another participating region was to veto such an operation - if so, then only the individual regional military of the region involved would act). That does not mean that the UIAF itself has an alliance - a group of militaries does not constitute a sovereign or diplomatic entity.

The UIAF was never allied to TSP. TNI was.

This victory reflects the close military cooperation and friendship existing between the UIAF and The South Pacific.

Here, the UIAF's priority was to maximise the chance of inflicting a defeat on another region LKE and TNI are at war with, the GGR, as well as to strike a blow against fascism in NationStates and to act in furtherance of our alliance with TSP.

Convenient, right?

This was a statement in reference to the alliance between TSP and TNI, as it made clear from the context if you look at the preceding section in that post: ''This operation was originally planned by the UIAF in concert with South Pacific Special Forces as a joint operation in accordance with the alliance existing between TNI and TSP.' In the particular sentence you cite, it could have been made clearer, bu it is reasonable as a statement representing TNI as a region participating in the UIAF and t the fact is that the UIAF does not make alliances, nor is it capable of making them: it is a military, not a sovereign entity.

1. My stance on the Lazarus purge is readily available through the forum search tool.

Have you made clear that Unibot is a 'downright joke' for thinking that it is defensible, as you have argued in relation to defenders of this incident?

To argue one but not the other is inconsistent.

2. If you're going to attack Unibot's own stance on Lazarus for inconsistency, be consistent yourself. Either you think what happened in Lazarus was wrong and what Todd McCloud and Belschaft were planning on doing in TSP was just as wrong, or you think both were fair ways to play the game. I'm not convinced you'll be consistent at all. But then again, I don't really need to care anymore.

I have already made clear my view that:

1. As Todd McCloud has essentially admitted himself, this discussion was inadvisable. It should not have happened.

2. The situation in Lazarus is far worse than the one here, with Feux having confessed to actually 'rigging' the elections in AMOM's words, with the wider conspiracy in relation to the NPO outlined in Feux's conversation being an outright coup, not simply a question of bringing in additional members. Moreover, whereas TSP has not suffered loss as a result of the discussion shown in this conversation, as a result of Feux's purge, Lazarus has endured multiple members (including the region's longest-serving recent Delegate) removed and a regime change. On any reasonable basis it deserves far more stinging condemnation.

[Unibot III]

Unibot, I gotta ask, what was the crime here?

I am neither a Court Justice nor a Prosecutor, however, I am a former member of TSP judiciary, six times over -- and I know if I sat on the court at this time, it'd be fraud and almost certainly treason given the evidence currently available.

Not to mention a failure on the part of Belschaft to recognize his duties as Chief Justice and as senior member of the CSS, in regards to Article 4.4.2, plus Article 5.4.2 and Article 7.2.1, which outlines our expectations of him. Neither casually arranging a legal question so he could strike a treaty down, nor planning an electoral stacking is in line with The Charter's expectations of a Chief Justice or a CSS Member or a citizen under Article 1.1.2-3.

[Solorni]

While I understand the motivations for fighting some of the more dangerous characters in nationstates, the solution is not to go undercover like this.

Seriously, Rachel? I'm a "more dangerous character" in this game? I have never conducted myself in this manner. I've never contemplated stacking votes in an election. Nor have I ever talked behind the scenes about how I could abuse my position of authority to strike down treaties I don't like.

You weren't included in my more dangerous characters silly

I really just meant Unibot and other similar NSers...

[Glen-Rhodes]

Onder, it's really simple. Do you condemn what Belschaft, God-Emperor, Todd McCloud, and several members of TEP contemplated doing in TSP, or does your political opposition to me (and, perhaps, the political benefits you would have reaped had the conspiracy been successful) make it not a serious issue?

There is an incredibly transparent bias and lack of consistency from a few of you here. How many people lambasted the UDL for what they allegedly did in TSP, with very little evidence to back it up? How many of you are now downplaying the egregiousness of this conspiracy, and how much does it have to do with who the conspirators are and against whom the conspiracy was targeted?

[Glen-Rhodes]

Seriously, Rachel? I'm a "more dangerous character" in this game? I have never conducted myself in this manner. I've never contemplated stacking votes in an election. Nor have I ever talked behind the scenes about how I could abuse my position of authority to strike down treaties I don't like.

You weren't included in my more dangerous characters silly

I really just meant Unibot and other similar NSers...

Unibot is in far less of a position to exact the kind of policy changes in TSP that apparently make him dangerous than I am as MoFA. I can guarantee, either way, that Unibot does not owe his success to vote stacking. He won his election fairly and closely. If he stacked, it wouldn't have been a nail-biter race. In fact, the idea that Unibot benefited from newcomers and outsiders is easily disproven by the election results. New citizens went almost entirely for God-Emperor.

[Onderkelkia]

Onder, it's really simple. Do you condemn what Belschaft, God-Emperor, Todd McCloud, and several members of TEP contemplated doing in TSP, or does your political opposition to me (and, perhaps, the political benefits you would have reaped had the conspiracy been successful) make it not a serious issue?

There is an incredibly transparent bias and lack of consistency from a few of you here. How many people lambasted the UDL for what they allegedly did in TSP, with very little evidence to back it up? How many of you are now downplaying the egregiousness of this conspiracy, and how much does it have to do with who the conspirators are and against whom the conspiracy was targeted?

What is really simple is the question that I posed to you above and which you have, with this response, ignored.

The incredible inconsistency and transparent bias over this incident lies with both Unibot, who condemns this incident despite precisely the same defences being applicable to it as existed in relation to Lazarus, and you your yourself, who condemns anyone who defends this incident as a 'downright joke' but failed to apply this epithet in relation to Unibot in relation to Lazarus despite being challenged to do so. It is obvious that you are unwilling to condemn Unibot in these terms because he is a political ally and that you are as guilty as anyone when it comes to prioritising such ties over 'GCR sovereignty'.

Insofar as my position on TSP goes, I have made clear that has occurred was inadvisable but it was not as serious as the events in Lazarus because:

1. Feux admitted actually rigging the elections in Lazarus, based on AMOM's question.
2. Feux's conspiracy with the NPO was to perform a downright coup, not merely move additional members in.
3. As a result of Feux's ultimate actions, multiple members were removed from Lazarus and Lazarus suffered regime change.

None of these three things apply in relation to the incident raised here - it was inadvisable, but clearly not as serious and it is bizarre to pretend as such.

Additionally, unlike you or Unibot, I have never claimed to believe in a universal concept of GCR/regional protection from external interference.

As for your suggestion the imperialist regions would have reaped political benefits if they had carried out their plan, TNI washed its hands of TSP based on public, straightforward positions - as indeed they lamented in their conversation.We had no reason to be concerned with its internal politics at this point.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Additionally, unlike you or Unibot, I have never claimed to believe in a universal concept of GCR/regional protection from external interference.

At least we have on record the opposite of what's been assumed and argued in TSP for years. A little vindication is always nice. I don't really care about your harping over Lazarus, especially when it makes it painfully obvious that you're only doing it to score points against Unibot. Your position is much weaker when you don't believe GCR sovereignty is worth anything.